theory Renarin's Ilumination

[+Bzhydack]

We know, that Renarin isnt able to use standard Ilumination like other Truthwatchers. He simply creates lights, and they sometimes act strange. And he has his visions. Many Sharders think that this is Voidish Ilumination - futursight, but i highly doubht it.

First thing, we know that every surge has Physical and Spiritual aspect. Adhesion can connect people, Transformation can transform them etc. So its safe assume that Ilumination also have Spiritual Aspect as well. And Spiritual Aspect of Ilumination is futuresight. We can even see this in the books - Shallan scetch Yalb survieving ships soulcasting, we see many times Shallans scetches with people in theirs "best versions" - and they later become this version of themselves. So with Illumination Shallan is able to "see" possible future of people and set them (with Spiritual Transformation) on way to this future.

So I think that any Truthwatcher and Lightweaver will be able to see partialy into the future. Difference is influence of second power of Radiant - for Truthwatchers is progression, slow growth without revolutionary changes, for Lightweavers its Transformation - one sudden change. So:

- Truthwatchers can see people/things future if they stay on their path and dont change

- Lightweavers can see people/things future if they change rapidly for the best.

And any shard can grant his servants (?) with some form of futursight. And Cultivation is very good at it - and spren ar partialy from Cultivation, Truthwatchers spren probably the most (after Edgedancrs ones), Cryptics are personification of laws of Physics, so also closer to Cultivation than to Honor.

So we have it, but why Renarin is so special?

Of course, reason after this is his Spren. But I think it is not because he has some Connection to Odium - I think this is because he is damaged.

We know that in whole Cosmere magic - Investiture need Intent and Focus. If any of those elements is not correct, Investiture also dont work correctly. If focus of Metalic Arts has not right composition, it will make Allomancer sick in the best scenario. If Command is not clear or too quiet, will not Awake. If Aon is only slightly incorrect, it will have lesser effect, dont work or even work differently.

And Spren is focus of Rosharan Magic System.

So if Spren is damaged, Surges he granted will also dont work properly. And we can claerly see witch Surge is damaged - its Illumination. But spren is Focus for both Surges equaly, so need to grant his Radiant access to both. And when he cannot grant full access into proper Surge (because is not perfect Focus) he shifts on other aspect of Surge he can grant.

So Renarin dont have proper Illumination powers, because Glys is damaged, but becaouse Investiture have to flow and Force have to go somewhere, he has powers Shifted towards Spiritual Illumination - and this mean visons.

[Honorless]

8 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

We know, that Renarin isnt able to use standard Ilumination like other Truthwatchers. He simply creates lights, and they sometimes act strange. And he has his visions. Many Sharders think that this is Voidish Ilumination - futursight, but i highly doubht it.

First thing, we know that every surge has Physical and Spiritual aspect. Adhesion can connect people, Transformation can transform them etc. So its safe assume that Ilumination also have Spiritual Aspect as well. And Spiritual Aspect of Ilumination is futuresight. We can even see this in the books - Shallan scetch Yalb survieving ships soulcasting, we see many times Shallans scetches with people in theirs "best versions" - and they later become this version of themselves. So with Illumination Shallan is able to "see" possible future of people and set them (with Spiritual Transformation) on way to this future.

Yeah, I've always liked to frame what she does as Illuminate them, inspiring them to transform into a better version of themselves. We know that, like Dalinar, Shallan as a Lightweaver uses Spiritual Connection as well (Pattern confirms it in OB)¹ via her sketches, possibly Identity as well to see their ideal Spiritual selves. I've attached some relevant WoBs right below:

As for Renarin's futuresight, I like to think of it as a Resonance: Illumination of Progression

Quote

Questioner

My first question is about Shallan and whether what she does with her drawings and the deserters in Words of Radiance, kind of changing them, is at all similar to what Shai does in The Emperor's Soul?

Brandon Sanderson

Umm, that's a good question. There are similarities, but only so much that The Emperor's Soul is cosmere and is relying on the same foundation of magic. But good question. Are you getting at me saying you've seen somebody do it before?

Questioner

I talked to Alice.

Brandon Sanderson

So you have seen what she does before, but that is not what I was pointing at. It's someth-- No one is going to expect it.

Footnote: This is a follow-up to this exchange.
Firefight Seattle Public Library signing (Jan. 7, 2015)

Quote

Wetlander

The bit with the bandits out there, and the deserters, and she [Shallan] convinces them to all go... Was she doing Lightweaving? Was she doing Transformation? Was she doing some combination?

Brandon Sanderson

She was... You have seen what she was doing before, done by another character.

Footnote: A follow-up to this exchange can be found here where Brandon excludes Shai as a possibility for the other character..
Firefight Seattle UBooks signing (Jan. 6, 2015)

Quote

Zmann966

So, in Oathbringer, we see the Surge of Adhesion used in an interesting way, Spiritual Adhesion. Do all the Surges have non-Physical manifestations like that?

Brandon Sanderson

All the Surges do, slightly, in fact, but none of them, I would say, are as Spiritual as that. 

Zmann966

What about like, Shallan in Words of Radiance with her mercenaries? So, like, a Spiritual Transformation? 

Brandon Sanderson

I wouldn't say Transformation, she is seeing a little bit, glimpsing a little bit, does that make sense? 

Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017)

8 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

So we have it, but why Renarin is so special?

Of course, reason after this is his Spren. But I think it is not because he has some Connection to Odium - I think this is because he is damaged.

We know that in whole Cosmere magic - Investiture need Intent and Focus. If any of those elements is not correct, Investiture also dont work correctly. If focus of Metalic Arts has not right composition, it will make Allomancer sick in the best scenario. If Command is not clear or too quiet, will not Awake. If Aon is only slightly incorrect, it will have lesser effect, dont work or even work differently.

And Spren is focus of Rosharan Magic System.

So if Spren is damaged, Surges he granted will also dont work properly. And we can claerly see witch Surge is damaged - its Illumination. But spren is Focus for both Surges equaly, so need to grant his Radiant access to both. And when he cannot grant full access into proper Surge (because is not perfect Focus) he shifts on other aspect of Surge he can grant.

So Renarin dont have proper Illumination powers, because Glys is damaged, but becaouse Investiture have to flow and Force have to go somewhere, he has powers Shifted towards Spiritual Illumination - and this mean visons.

Yeah, the usage of light could indicate he finds it easier to use the fundamental components of Illumination: light

Quote

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

[Discussion of Lightweavers manipulating other forms of electromagnetic radiation]

But the ultimate form (That Brandon said would be too much to be practical both in needed stormlight and application) would be the control of Gamma Radiation. If this could be harnessed, Lightweavers could literally become mini nukes, or death guns. The biggest downside to making Gamma radiation would be the damage the lightweaver would most likely suffer. So gamma radiation is impractical but its a fun thought experiment. 

The best part of this whole speculation was how excited Brandon was about my train of thought. I don't know if anyone had brought up this train of thought before. But he was happy to remind me that things will get pretty interesting when Lightweavers discover lasers and start using them in combat.

Miscellaneous 2016 (July 3, 2016)

I like to think of it as how the power should behave being coded into the Surge. Lightweaving uses photons/EM wave, sound wave or waveforms, plus forming Spiritual Connection to people or things which Lightweavers use by virtue of often being artists of some sort¹, plus mnemonic abilities, their resonance².

So it could be that what Renarin is doing is using the fundamental pieces that make up the code of Lightweaving, the building blocks of the Surge of Illumination.

 

We do have confirmation that different Orders can manifest their Surges a bit differently³, more specifically we also have confirmation that Truthwatchers use Lightweaving a bit differently⁴:

 

1: from Chapter 120 The Spear That Would Not Break 

Quote

“I’ve lost these,” Shallan said as Yalb the sailor climbed from the mist and waved to her. He drew a glowing Shardspear from the air. “I lost these pictures!”
You are close to them, Pattern said. Close to the realm of thought … and beyond. All the people you’ve Connected to, over the years …

2: WoBs

Quote

Argent

There is a person on the forums who noticed that Shallan has this awesome Memory thing going on, Jasnah seems to have a really powerful, kind of, geolocation thing going on, Kaladin is a really good fighter - are those just their traits, or is there something supernatural going on?

Brandon Sanderson

There is something supernatural going on. Each Order... Well, how about this. If you look at the scholar interpretations, there are some scholars who think that these things are not supernatural, in the past, and some who said they definitely are. But many, if you look, many Lightweavers had powerful mnemonic abilities.

Argent

So it's definitely tied to the Orders?

Brandon Sanderson

It's tied to the Orders. Now, I am not going to say that you've got them all 100% correct, but each Order, there are things that come with Order, things that do not add up from simple the "you get this power plus this power," there is something else going on. And I would say that for Windrunners, watch the number of squires and the power of the squires... is abnormal for the Windrunners.

Argent

And each Order's squires are somehow different from the other Orders'?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeeeaaaah... some Orders don't have them, [that] is the difference.

Argent

 But some have more?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Words of Radiance Chicago signing (March 22, 2014)

Quote

Swamp-Spirit

Shallan's Memory ability to capture an image doesn't seem to be working exactly like an eidetic memory...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Swamp-Spirit

...because she can erase it by drawing. Is that tied directly to the magic of Lightweaving? And if so would other creative Lightweavers have similar abilities.

Brandon Sanderson

If you look at the epigraphs there is a big hint on this, where it talks about it and yes... I have problems with eidetic memory, just because scientifically most scientists say this is not a real thing. So I would say that whenever-- Because of my knowledge of the science of it understand that you would need some sort of magical enhancement to be able to do what she does.

Words of Radiance Portland signing (March 7, 2014)

Quote

Wetlander

In addition to the two abilities given by each Surge, does a Knight Radiant Order have a third blended ability, the interaction of its two given Surges?

Brandon Sanderson

Not specifically as phrased there, but each Order has quirks that are unique to it. They are magical quirks, but it's not necessarily a blend of the powers.

Wetlander

So Shallan's Memories is kind of a...

Brandon Sanderson

Is associated with her Order, yes.

Wetlander

It's not just because she had that wonderful ability, and Pattern came along and went, "Oh, I like this one!"

Brandon Sanderson

No that is not necessarily what attracted Pattern.

Firefight Seattle UBooks signing (Jan. 6, 2015)

3: WoBs

Quote

Questioner

We know, especially in Oathbringer, that Surges can work differently for different Orders, but we've also seen the Skybreakers and [Windrunners] with flight, and the Truthwatchers and [Edgedancers], they both can do Regrowth, so is there some way that those actually work differently?

Brandon Sanderson

Each of them works a little differently for each Order. There are slight variations, but they are each drawing upon the same source concept.

Oathbringer Houston signing (Nov. 18, 2017)

Quote

Questioner

Different Surges are shared by different Orders. Do they work the same for the different Order?

Brandon Sanderson

They work basically the same though there is some... sometimes the combination of the two will produce some side effects that are unique, but the basic powers are the same.

Salt Lake City signing (March 29, 2014)

Quote

Questioner

The Knights each have two Surges, they spill over each. I am wondering, is the crossover [shared] Surge for each Knight [Order] the same? Like gravity for Windrunners and--

Brandon Sanderson

Windrunners are always the same thing.

Questioner

No no no, the way the [Gravitation] Surge is for Skybreakers and--

Brandon Sanderson

The way they act? Yes. To an extent, yes. Each of the combinations make a little bit of a tweak to how things act but when you see Skybreakers affect gravity it'll be more or less the same as the Windrunners.

Words of Radiance Washington, DC signing (March 20, 2014)

4: WoB

Quote

Argent

So, the Edgedancer's resonance, the Perk? I think you've called it resonance at some point, is that still accurate?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, that totally works. The powers affect each other in interesting ways.

Argent

Right.

Brandon Sanderson

Um, so the thing about it is, calling it a Perk, that like saying--

Argent

It's a side effect right?

Brandon Sanderson

It's less a side effect-- It's like, when the powers merge, they are always slightly different. For instance, Lightweaving from a Truthwatcher is different from-- Slightly. There will be things. So, you're gonna see that they all have access to the Surges, but in combinations, they act a little differently from one another.

Questioner

So is the Edgedancer's resonance something to do with communication? Because we see Lift--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, yeah we'll RAFO that.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

 

Edited August 13, 2020 by Honorless
Too many extracts/WoBs cut in the middle of paragraphs, so I used superscript to reference them in the end

[Knight Oblivion]

10 hours ago, Honorless said:

Yeah, I've always liked to frame what she does as Illuminate them, inspiring them to transform into a better version of themselves. We know that, like Dalinar, Shallan as a Lightweaver uses Spiritual Connection as well (Pattern confirms it in OB)¹ via her sketches, possibly Identity as well to see their ideal Spiritual selves. I've attached some relevant WoBs right below:

As for Renarin's futuresight, I like to think of it as a Resonance: Illumination of Progression

Yeah, the usage of light could indicate he finds it easier to use the fundamental components of Illumination: light

I like to think of it as how the power should behave being coded into the Surge. Lightweaving uses photons/EM wave, sound wave or waveforms, plus forming Spiritual Connection to people or things which Lightweavers use by virtue of often being artists of some sort¹, plus mnemonic abilities, their resonance².

So it could be that what Renarin is doing is using the fundamental pieces that make up the code of Lightweaving, the building blocks of the Surge of Illumination.

 

We do have confirmation that different Orders can manifest their Surges a bit differently³, more specifically we also have confirmation that Truthwatchers use Lightweaving a bit differently⁴:

 

1: from Chapter 120 The Spear That Would Not Break 

2: WoBs

3: WoBs

4: WoB

 

All interesting and well-researched. The main issue is that we have some confirmation in ch. 6 of RoW that the other Truthwatchers that have joined the coalition use Illumination like Shallan does. Obviously, Renarin is the odd one out that's using Illumination substantially differently from the norm with regards to both the Radiant orders that use it as well as that Fused we saw using it in Oathbringer.

[Honorless]

On 8/14/2020 at 2:10 AM, Knight Oblivion said:

All interesting and well-researched. The main issue is that we have some confirmation in ch. 6 of RoW that the other Truthwatchers that have joined the coalition use Illumination like Shallan does. Obviously, Renarin is the odd one out that's using Illumination substantially differently from the norm with regards to both the Radiant orders that use it as well as that Fused we saw using it in Oathbringer.

I'm aware, yes

On 8/11/2020 at 8:27 PM, Honorless said:

1) The Heavenly Ones have honour

2) Kaladin's wrong, I think, they do lose a little bit of themselves upon being killed

3) Is Leshwi... is she teaching Kaladin?

4) More Truthwatchers confirmed!

5) So Truthwatchers can use Illumination to cast illusions. Renarin can use light that have esoteric effects sometimes. Voidbinding? Something more fundamental leaking through because of the mixing of powers? What's his futuresight then? A Resonance? Illumination of Progression? 

6) Moash has 20/20 vision, I'm jealous. Rushu is easily distracted, I can relate.

7) I'd be happy if Shallan just offs Ialai anti-climactically

I did consider that fact while writing my response

I should also note that Kaladin mentions that a group of Fused also use Lightweaving, similar to how Shallan does, in RoW ch 2 Severed Cords¹. Although post-OB many theorised that the usage of the Surges shown by the Fused isn't Voidbinding, it is the only example we have of Odium-aligned magic, regardless of whether it's Voidbinding or not, and it seems, from Kaladin's comment, that they cast illusions, not light. I also included a WoB that indicates that using Illumination to manipulate EM waves might be possible, which makes sense because that's what illusions are, precise manipulation of photons to trick one's vision.

1:

Quote

They’d met Fused that could fly, and others that had powers like Lightweavers. Perhaps this was the variety whose powers mirrored, in a way, the traveling abilities of Elsecallers.

 

Edited August 15, 2020 by Honorless
missing comma

[+Bzhydack]

On 13.08.2020 at 10:40 PM, Knight Oblivion said:

All interesting and well-researched. The main issue is that we have some confirmation in ch. 6 of RoW that the other Truthwatchers that have joined the coalition use Illumination like Shallan does. Obviously, Renarin is the odd one out that's using Illumination substantially differently from the norm with regards to both the Radiant orders that use it as well as that Fused we saw using it in Oathbringer.

And this is exactly why I think that Renarin has his wierd powers because of damaged spren, not because of Connection with Odium. We saw Regals and Fused able to use "normal" Ilumination, but we didnt see any with Futursight, we only know from Songs about Nightform. Surges has Physical and Spiritual Aspects and is possible that ballance between them is set differently - we even see this with other Surge, Adhesion - Bondsmiths have mainly Spiritual Adhesion, when Windrunners also have it, but is more shifted towards Physical Adhesion. With other Orders can be the same, heck, probably differences are even between Radiants (Like Lift isnt as good with Abrasion as other Edgedancers). For Example, one Lightweaver will be good with Ilusions, other will be good with soulcasting, and other will be good with seeing and transforming people - all of them will have all those powers, but they will have different specializations.

So Renarin has Ilumination powers FORCED towards Spiritual Aspect, because Damaged Spren cant grant him full Access to the Physical aspect of Surge.

This can be also reason why in the past Truthwachers were so isolated -  they somtetimes have members really good with Spiritual Ilumination.

Edited August 14, 2020 by Bzhydack

[Quantus]

And with Chapter 8, we get to see another aspect of Renarin's Illumination at play.  In OB, we saw it manifest as Visions described as a stained glass window only he could see, which predicted the Future.  In Chapter 8 we see him emit a Light that manifests what is basically a visible Gold-Shadow of another person, a vision of what that person could have been.

It cant be coincidence that Gold is both the Auger metal and the bloodmaker metal, both in-line with Renarin's trademark powers.       

[Honorless]

50 minutes ago, Quantus said:

And with Chapter 8, we get to see another aspect of Renarin's Illumination at play.  In OB, we saw it manifest as Visions described as a stained glass window only he could see, which predicted the Future.  In Chapter 8 we see him emit a Light that manifests what is basically a visible Gold-Shadow of another person, a vision of what that person could have been.

It cant be coincidence that Gold is both the Auger metal and the bloodmaker metal, both in-line with Renarin's trademark powers.       

I'd call it Malatium rather than gold, since gold is internal while Malatium is external

[Quantus]

10 minutes ago, Honorless said:

I'd call it Malatium rather than gold, since gold is internal while Malatium is external

Meh, Surges dont seem to break along those lines as much as Allomancy does.  Gold Healing is technically internal too, even though regrowth can be projected.  

The main reason I hesitate to look at Malatium too close in this comparison is that Aitum and Malatium were specifically and willfully hacked into the system, used to replace two other metals by Leras so there would be a reason to burn the Atium.  Meaning it was a weird hacky application, using a god-metal, and with conscious meddling by an insane Shard; that's more asterisks that Id like to add to the theory mix if I can avoid it.  

[Shardsplinter]

Is it possible that the same way Feruchemical gold heals the body, Allomantic gold actually offers a sort of help to see yourself in a healthier way spiritually.

(Since we don't have many examples of detailed gold shadows or of allomancers actually letting themselfs be affected by their gold shadows-it's described by Vin and Kell as a weird feeling- for this theory I'm assuming that all atium alloys are related to the basic metal but changed or enhanced by the atium- don't think we know enough this far to affirm or denny this- so mallatium let's u see other people's gold shadows)

If we analize the best example of a gold shadow I can remember( with the assumption I made) TLR's, we saw him as a shepperd or a farmer(I don't exactly remember) or just a simpler man. So my theory is that this version of Rashek would have been happier and healthier spiritually and mantally.

If so, then I'm guessing the surge of Progression is capable of both kinds of Healing, similar to Feruchemical gold but also to Allomantic gold( This would add up with all surges having a physical and spiritual manifestation).

So, I don't think what we Saw in This chapter is similar to when he saw future possibilities like his cousin killing him. I think it's just the result of him using spiritual Progression on Moarsh( like he deserves it) and then using Illumination to show that. And it looks similar to a gold/ mallatium shadow because those are also spiritual Healing 

I know that it has been stated that Renarin's Illumination doesn't work normally but I think this doesn't allow him to lightweave willingly but wouldn't stop him from unconsciously casting an illution as a result of a spiritual connection/ use of his surge Progression.

 

[Innovation]

Renarin can see and show others the future. This seems to include possible futures, like Moash actually being good, or Dalinar turning bad. It’s not gold or Malatium, or even a metal in particular. It is simply seeing all possible futures, and Renarin is showing one where Moash was good. 

[Subvisual Haze]

2 hours ago, Honorless said:

I'd call it Malatium rather than gold, since gold is internal while Malatium is external

Yeah, malatium is also a hybrid of Atium and gold powers.  Rather like how Renarin is using a hybrid of Truthwatcher surges and Sja-Anat magic.  It seems like the Sja-Anat powers have a pretty strong link to the spiritual realm (seeing the future, seeing alternate paths other's lives could have taken).

[Quantus]

3 hours ago, Innovation said:

Renarin can see and show others the future. This seems to include possible futures, like Moash actually being good, or Dalinar turning bad. It’s not gold or Malatium, or even a metal in particular. It is simply seeing all possible futures, and Renarin is showing one where Moash was good. 

I completely disagree, Renarin's experience when he sees the future and the Light that revealed Moash's alternate self were described as wildly different effects.  Renarin's futuresight manifest as a stained-glass window of future pictures that have never been visible to others, as compared to this Illumination that let everyone present see Moash's alternate self.  This seems a lot more like the Lashings or the Growth/Regrowth example where a Surge simply has multiple distinct effects.   That's a category that fits about half the Surges at this point, I think.  

 

[+robardin]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

I completely disagree, Renarin's experience when he sees the future and the Light that revealed Moash's alternate self were described as wildly different effects.  Renarin's futuresight manifest as a stained-glass window of future pictures that have never been visible to others, as compared to this Illumination that let everyone present see Moash's alternate self.  This seems a lot more like the Lashings or the Growth/Regrowth example where a Surge simply has multiple distinct effects.   That's a category that fits about half the Surges at this point, I think. 

There's also the fact that the bright white light going on at the time was described as warming. Like Dalinar's seen/felt a few times in his life, that even the Stormfather didn't see. That many readers associate with Cultivation doing some... Cultivating.

And the fact that Renarin didn't seem to notice it as something he was doing, or anything unusual. So either he has been doing this for a while now, or even more incredibly, it's something he does unconsciously? Or that only others can see, the opposite of his future visions?

Until we find out more in later chapters, I'm not sure which of those possibilities blows my mind more.

[Azarias]

I think I have to disagree, this WoB demonstrates that Renarin is using stormlight to power abilities other than surgebinding, and not just illumination limitted to its spiritual aspect. As we have already seen Shallan demonstrating a small usage of spiritual illumination, and Brandon has confirmed that this something different from Surgebindings we've seen, I would argue that the unique batch of powers we have seen him utilize cannot just be attributed to just spiritual illumation, and therefore is not something we will see available to other truthwatchers. This would mean that his furturesight is not just a truthwatcher resonance, nor the only aspect of illumination that a damaged Glyss can allow him access to- but something else (Voidbinding?). 

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Argent                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Let's talk about Renarin, and Voidbinding. So, with that page we talked about, Renarin Voidbinds. I asked about visions, you pointed to Voidbinding chart, he Voidbinds. Is that using Stormlight  to power abilities different from the Surgebindings we've seen?  

Brandon Sanderson                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Yes. 

Argent                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Is that what voidbinding is? 

Brandon Sanderson                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                No, but close. You're on the right track. We are gonna get into that, I'm not gonna tell you what the chart means, and things like that. But yeah, something really weird is happening there. 

Footnote: The chart referenced is the back endsheet in The Way of Kings.
Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017)

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That is not to say that some of what we saw of Renarin's powers in RoW Chapter 8 were not spiritual illumination- as what he did there seems a lot closer to what Shallan has done in the past, particularly in things like her drawings of the mercenaries- only that the abilities we have seen from him so far cannot be fully explained that way. 

That said- I do agree with much of what Bzhydack said in their original post on this topic- that we have yet to see the usage of spiritual illumination in the way we have seen the spiritual aspect of other surges used, though we might see it better demonstrated by more regular truthwatchers.

Edited August 25, 2020 by Azarias

[+robardin]

Ohh, the "Voidbinding chart". I forgot all about that. Khriss says that it is a "cousin to the Old Magic" which is of Cultivation, is it not?

[Pathfinder]

27 minutes ago, robardin said:

There's also the fact that the bright white light going on at the time was described as warming. Like Dalinar's seen/felt a few times in his life, that even the Stormfather didn't see. That many readers associate with Cultivation doing some... Cultivating.

And the fact that Renarin didn't seem to notice it as something he was doing, or anything unusual. So either he has been doing this for a while now, or even more incredibly, it's something he does unconsciously? Or that only others can see, the opposite of his future visions?

Until we find out more in later chapters, I'm not sure which of those possibilities blows my mind more.

Honestly I take it as a repeat of what Renarin did with the thunderclast. Glys said to show them light and they will go. Navani also mentions the balls of light Renarin summon seem to do different things. So I saw it as an extension of that

Edited August 25, 2020 by Pathfinder

[+Bzhydack]

10 minutes ago, Azarias said:

 

That said- I do agree with much of what Bzhydack said in their original post on this topic- that we have yet to see the usage of spiritual illumination in the way we have seen the spiritual aspect of other surges used, though we might see it better demonstrated by more regular truthwatchers.

Maybe this is exactly it. They are Truth-watchers, they can see Truth about who someone is, can be or SHOULD be, and show this to him or even to everyone. I think what Renarin did in 8 chapter is purely Spiritual Ilumination, and he can be very, VERY good at it. But your posted WoB is interesting, still is possibility that Rens visions are caused by damaged Spren. Maybe what Sia-Anat did is in some way similar to Hemalurgy, she take part of Spren and replace it, so Spren cannot grant full access to Surge, but can grant access to something else.

[Innovation]

 This “perfection illusion” seems like a combination of Spiritual Lightweaving and Renarin’s Voidbinding Illumination. The Spiritual Lightweaving is the feeling of perfection, but the shadow we see of Moash is something Renarin’s Voidbinding shows. 

Edited August 25, 2020 by Innovation

[Azarias]

On 25/08/2020 at 11:32 PM, Bzhydack said:

Maybe this is exactly it. They are Truth-watchers, they can see Truth about who someone is, can be or SHOULD be, and show this to him or even to everyone. I think what Renarin did in 8 chapter is purely Spiritual Ilumination, and he can be very, VERY good at it. But your posted WoB is interesting, still is possibility that Rens visions are caused by damaged Spren. Maybe what Sia-Anat did is in some way similar to Hemalurgy, she take part of Spren and replace it, so Spren cannot grant full access to Surge, but can grant access to something else.

I do agree with your sentiment that what we see in Chapter 8 could be purely spiritual illumination, as I said, it seems a similar concept to some of the drawings that Shallan did of the mercenaries. In terms of his visions and their links to Voidbinding: we have already seen voidspren, and I would speculate that voidbinding could involve bonding with one such spren. Perhaps Sia-Anat's corruption of Glys made her more like, or half, voidspren, giving him access to part of the powers from both magic systems

On 25/08/2020 at 11:36 PM, Innovation said:

 This “perfection illusion” seems like a combination of Spiritual Lightweaving and Renarin’s Voidbinding Illumination. The Spiritual Lightweaving is the perfected part, but the shadow we see of Moash is his Voidbinding shadow. 

Precisely what I mean, exploiting both magic systems, but neither fully

Edited August 30, 2020 by Azarias

[Innovation]

6 minutes ago, Azarias said:

Precisely what I mean, exploiting both magic systems, but neither fully

Just like how Renarin is bonded with a Spren a step below a true Spren but a step above a Voidspren. 

Edited August 25, 2020 by Innovation

[+robardin]

6 minutes ago, Innovation said:

Just like how Renarin is bonded with a Spren a step below a true Spren but a step above a Voidspren. 

Hey! Just because Glys was "enlightened" by Sja-anat doesn't make him "a step below!" He can still form a Nahel Bond, can't he?

[Innovation]

Just now, robardin said:

Hey! Just because Glys was "enlightened" by Sja-anat doesn't make him "a step below!" He can still form a Nahel Bond, can't he?

I was trying to symbolize that Glys is in between a Voidspren and a Truespren. I did not mean that Glys is bellow Truespren; I should have phrased that differently. 

[ZenBossanova]

What confuses me, is How did Renarin know Kaladin was in trouble? 

Did he project an illusion of himself? Or did he Else-call down there. 

If the first, he has some kind of remote sight. Plausible, but doubtful. But projecting the illusion is new. 

Quote

 

“Come on,” Renarin said, getting under his arm to help lift him. “The Fused have retreated. The ship is ready to leave!”

Kaladin nodded, numb, and let Renarin help him stand.

 

But this sounds like he is there in person. 

How did he get there? Else-calling is not a Truthwatcher surge. He should have some kind of Illusion and Progression surges, true or voidish. 

[ftl]

38 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

What confuses me, is How did Renarin know Kaladin was in trouble?

Probably because the ship was ready to leave, as he said, but Kaladin hadn't returned yet. Pretty simple inference that something was keeping him.

38 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

Did he project an illusion of himself? Or did he Else-call down there. 

If the first, he has some kind of remote sight. Plausible, but doubtful. But projecting the illusion is new. 

But this sounds like he is there in person. 

How did he get there? Else-calling is not a Truthwatcher surge. He should have some kind of Illusion and Progression surges, true or voidish. 

He walked! The ship was in Hearthstone, he didn't need to go far.

[Pathfinder]

15 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

What confuses me, is How did Renarin know Kaladin was in trouble? 

Did he project an illusion of himself? Or did he Else-call down there. 

If the first, he has some kind of remote sight. Plausible, but doubtful. But projecting the illusion is new. 

But this sounds like he is there in person. 

How did he get there? Else-calling is not a Truthwatcher surge. He should have some kind of Illusion and Progression surges, true or voidish. 

In the prior chapter Lift tells Kaladin that a man (Roshone) was brought into the house, but did not come out. Kaladin figures it was Roshone, and tells Lift he is going to investigate. Tells her to bring the fabrial back to Navani. Renarin was with Navani. So I believe that is why