Shallan's Baby

[StormlightFan23]

Alright, my first topic I started and not beating around the bush here with the title!  I am really surprised that no one has brought up that Shallan and Adolin likely have a baby!  I feel like after the last book, that was seen as basically inevitable (recently married, young couple, as in love as the two of them are!  You can guess what happens )  But, I actually think that there IS a baby, and it's one of the "time skip" reveals that Mr. Sanderson is holding back for later in the book... I think this is the main reason that we haven't seen Adolin "on screen", because I think if they were together then they would definitely discuss the baby, and it would spoil the surprise for readers.

I also have a theory that the reason Pattern is NOWHERE to be seen (which I normally would see as a big warning sign) is because he actually plays a nanny role for the baby.  (Kind of a fun twist on how he was the chaperone in Shallan and Adolin's courtship, which was one of the cutest parts on the last book )  I know Shallan mentions that Pattern is "watching to warn Adolin", but Adolin is basically right there in the last few chapters, so why isn't Pattern with Shallan??  It makes no sense unless he has to be off doing something more important... hence nanny role!

I do think Shallan has a lot of growing to do (Mr. Sanderson said she is in a "downward spiral"), and I think having Adolin as a husband and also her baby will be two elements that really help pull her out of that spiral.  And Pattern will be the cutest nanny.  I'm hoping we get a Pattern interlude like we're getting for Syl which is him "bonding" with the baby...  I'm looking forward to reading all of this so much!  November can't come soon enough!

[Karger]

I don't think either of them are ready for the responsibility.  Also maybe a bad idea during wartime.  What about them both leaving to go to shadesmar(most of us think this will happen in part two)?

[Honorless]

I don't think either of them wanted to be parents so soon, and in the middle of the True Desolation no less. 

[+robardin]

It's an interesting thought, but given that the time skip is only about a year (less than two years), I can't see Adolin and Shallan / Veil / Radiant going on a mission to infiltrate Ialai's organization (whatever it is) with a newborn at home.

On the other hand it certainly would be one reason to skip forward 1+ years in the narrative between OB and RoW.

[Black_Shoshan]

I think if Shallan and Adolin will have children, it'll happen during the timeskip between Stormlight 5 and 6 (this is of course assuming both of them survive past Stormlight 5). They are both young, and Shallan is not in the right head space at all to have children.

Even being in a romantic relationship, being married, is a potential problem (I personally think her relationship with Adolin seems to be good for her mental health, but I can appreciate the opinion some have that Shallan should have focused on getting better before entering a committed relationship). Children, however, are a completely new level of trigger. Shallan's trauma stems in a large degree from what happened with her mother and father, and she'll need to be in a better place to become a parent, because that is guaranteed to bring back her experiences of being threatened and abused by her own parents. 

I'm also pretty sure that even though it's never explicitly said in book, Roshar (like Scadrial per a WoB) has some forms of birth control that allow a certain measure of family planning. 

[+Oltux72]

6 hours ago, Honorless said:

I don't think either of them wanted to be parents so soon, and in the middle of the True Desolation no less. 

This is not the way a Rosharan aristocrat would think. You need an heir. Your brother known to be bonded to a corrupted spren is not an ideal fallback.

[Honorless]

17 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

This is not the way a Rosharan aristocrat would think. You need an heir. Your brother known to be bonded to a corrupted spren is not an ideal fallback.

But I can't see either of them thinking about it that way, nor see Dalinar or Navani pressuring them. I could see Jasnah pursuing that train of thought, but again, I can't see her pressuring them to produce an heir either.

[+Oltux72]

2 minutes ago, Honorless said:

But I can't see either of them thinking about it that way, nor see Dalinar or Navani pressuring them. I could see Jasnah pursuing that train of thought, but again, I can't see her pressuring them to produce an heir either.

These two are aristocrats trained from early childhood to think in dynastic terms. Every lighteyes will think that way. Rosharans are not Western individualist sharing western attitudes to marriage and romantic relations.

[Honorless]

On 8/13/2020 at 10:18 PM, Oltux72 said:

These two are aristocrats trained from early childhood to think in dynastic terms. Every lighteyes will think that way. Rosharans are not Western individualist sharing western attitudes to marriage and romantic relations.

I think you're thinking in standard historical / historical fantasy aristocrat terms here. Dalinar and Navani might want an heir, but both are demonstrably open-minded, Dalinar is learning to write from Navani within the same time period, against Vorin traditions.

Adolin and Shallan have shown no indication of wanting a baby.

Besides, there's only a year between Oathbringer and Rhythm of War. Human pregnancy lasts about 9 months. But by all means, let's account for Stormlight healing, I'll still be surprised that both of them are willing to take on an infiltration mission right after! Not to mention, that'd put her out of commission for months while she's pregnant! 

Edited August 23, 2020 by Honorless
added a rather crucial point

[Neturo]

I for one kinda like this theory, 

The arguments that they haven't mentioned wanting a baby, or having a baby preventing them from going on dangerous mission falls flat for me. 

The does not sound like how rosharan nobles think. and those two where brought up to be lighteye nobles.

They would see it as a duty to produce an heir ASAP, but i don't see any evidence that these two would be loving attentive parents

Maybe more Adolin though he certainly did not learn that from his Father, 

We have no clue what her interpretation of motherhood would be

I'm thinking, she had no problem with a political marriage and found a way to be a scholar, spy and warrior at the same time.

So i don't see Shallan as the stay at home mom. as soon as he body allows she would find a way to be a scholar, spy and warrior.

There would be a wetnurse at home taking care of that babe.

 

My biggest problem with the theory is that it would be this BIG thing and i don't she how it could be used in the Story. 

He is too young to be a character and would only serve as a distraction. 

 

[ftl]

10 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

These two are aristocrats trained from early childhood to think in dynastic terms. Every lighteyes will think that way. Rosharans are not Western individualist sharing western attitudes to marriage and romantic relations.

I think right now, both will want to win the war and stop the Desolation more than they'll want an heir. 

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, ftl said:

I think right now, both will want to win the war and stop the Desolation more than they'll want an heir. 

1. Thinking of these things as contradictory is exectly the problem of anachronism. The best way to win a war is to make sure the chains of command are clearly defined and the order of succession is settled.
2. They will not think of this as wanting and a highly desirable but basically optional possibility. Having an heir is a duty.

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Thinking of these things as contradictory is exectly the problem of anachronism. The best way to win a war is to make sure the chains of command are clearly defined and the order of succession is settled.

Which it currently is.  Adding infant heirs might actually make this worse as "supporters" of one heir or another may try a coup.

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

They will not think of this as wanting and a highly desirable but basically optional possibility. Having an heir is a duty.

Eventually.  Putting Shallan out of commission for several months is probably a bad idea.

[Harbour]

I think if there will be a kid, it will happen in between 5 and 6 books. Kid of one of the main characters will require a lot of space on pages and we have only book 4 and 5 left.

Also Adolin and Shallan have a lot of problems to solve. Putting kid on top of that would be an overkill for both characters and readers imo.

Edited August 14, 2020 by Harbour

[+robardin]

Yeah I'm gonna go with the writerly over the in-world reason I think it's unlikely for Adolin and Shallan to be new parents at this point of their lives: it'd completely overburden the narrative. Especially Shallan's narrative, when she's already got a LOT of mental and emotional challenges from different sources to deal with, when ultimately those are "character depth" areas and not "move the plot" storylines.

Go too far in that direction, to sidebar the major story arc in order to explore character POVs in depth, and you end up with material that is like 70% of what infuriated fans of The Wheel of Time in books 7-10. And Sanderson is an "outliner writer" in part to try to avoid that kind of excursion spiral.

(That is, unless there actually IS a plot reason for Shallan to be a new mother right now, similar to how I foresee that Oroden almost certainly has more planned for him than being a background "emotional filler character" for Kaladin. Even if that doesn't come to fruition until the "back five" set of Stormlight books. We do have only six chapters so far of a very large book to go by, after all.)

Edited August 14, 2020 by robardin

[cfphelps]

In Chapter 4, Shallan says:

Quote

Hopefully Pattern was still following at a distance as instructed. Once the group stopped and began initiating Radiant, the spren would fetch Adolin and the soldiers in case she needed extraction.

So pattern is watching for when to trigger Adolin to arrive in the case of extraction, and not babysitting. 

This is probably an unpopular opinion but I personally don't have a huge interest in reading about the characters raising their families. I guess it's too much like my real life vs. the reality escape of reading about the fight against Odium. 

[ftl]

On 8/14/2020 at 1:03 AM, Harbour said:

I think if there will be a kid, it will happen in between 5 and 6 books.

This would make a lot of sense. If Adolin and Shallan survive book 5, definitely expect their kids to play a part in the back 5. 

[Toaster Retribution]

I think we would be seeing a fourth persona if Shallan had a baby. She handles situations that she feels are scary or pressuring by creating a new part of herself which is an "expert" at this area. Veil for stealthing, Radiant for warring, and she would no doubt create "Nursie" for a baby. In that case, we would see Nursie being a part of Shallans internal monologues, which we haven´t. 

[Robot]

They can leave their kid in charge of uncle Balat, who according to his chapter is the only sane brother of Shallan.

[Jenet]

Have they got birth control in Roshar? It seems everyone thinks it's normal to be able to plan when to have a baby, but that is not something given. I don't know what Sanderson has planned for us, but it is perfectly possible that Shallan has had a baby. Simply because that happens when you get married and nobody has heard of planned parenthood. It might be that they consider it inevitable.
It might be that the second batch of 5 novels will have Oroden, Gavinor and Shallan's baby as main protagonists for what we know, and that is a good reason for introducing a baby now. As a Radiant, Shallan will be required to continue her work, since there is a war and a possible end of the world going on, and well, women all over the real world go back to work quite soon after giving birth, leaving the kid to a trusted nanny, so why whouldn't Shallan?

Personally, I would find it refreshing to see how Rosharans handle this. I might not be boring at all.

Edited August 22, 2020 by Jenet

[Aon Tia]

On 13/08/2020 at 9:55 PM, Oltux72 said:

This is not the way a Rosharan aristocrat would think. You need an heir. Your brother known to be bonded to a corrupted spren is not an ideal fallback.

I don’t think that the fact of Renarin’s situation would be widely known. I think it could be something that only kholins know. And Gavinor is already there as the heir apparent after Jasnah. And who even knows if these radiants have a normal lifespan or a longer than usual one because of all the stormlight healing and regeneration. 
 

Although I think it is unlikely that they would have a child already. Shallan should definitely focus on her mental stability.  but it would be a surprise for sure. When does shallan ever do what she is supposed to?

[the_archduke]

Whether Renarin's situation is widely known or not (probably not) Shallan and Adolin are certain to know of it.  And they aren't necessarily just worried about an heir for Alethkar.  The Kholin Highprincedom certainly needs an heir.  Remember, you need to think of this like a feudal aristocrat on Roshar not a 21st century earthling.  And a desolation, with all of its attendant death and destruction, makes the need for heirs and spares greater, not less.  All of that is likely much more at the forefront of their minds than "can we really handle a baby right now?"  And this is assuming that birth control even exists or would be efficacious while burning stormlight.  

I am not saying they should have a baby right now.  I am saying that they probably think they should, they are clearly very much in love, and we all know where babies come from.

I don't know if this has been discussed, but the timeskip also makes a lot of sense if she was pregnant in that year.  Could you imagine an entire book of people telling Shallan to take it easy because of her condition?  I also thought I read that Brandon disliked writing pregnant Elayne in WoT.  

And beside all of this rational discussion, I really want to see their three-colored hair kid.

[Pathfinder]

Tried to do a quick search regarding spoiler policy within rhythm of war, but just in case spoilers for chapter 8

Spoiler

I think we can say rather confidently that Shallan and Adolin did not have a child. We have not seen any mention whatsoever. Even when they had an extended moment to speak to each other. 

 

[Robot]

Just wait until we meet Balat with little Evi

[Honorless]

On 8/26/2020 at 1:44 AM, Robot said:

Just wait until we meet Balat with little Evi

That one's gonna hurt when Adolin finds out what happened to Evi Sr