Shallan's shift in direction.

[Calderis]

7 hours ago, Ailvara said:

There's also a difference between being stigmatized and acknowledging something as unhealthy. Is it fair to treat that someone with chronic condition or that someone who got out of alcoholism as if they were a ticking bomb, refuse to employ them or be friends with them? No. But it also doesn't mean we should try to persuade the first one to stop taking their medicine because "they seem completely fine and surely don't need it" or invite the second one to a night of heavy drinking. This is what treating them as healthy would mean!

No. It doesn't. That's called being a jerk and an enabler. 

You congratulate them on the progress they've made. You support them with they're struggles. You be there for them when they need it. And you accept the progress that they've made. 

My father has been a recovering alcoholic for 30 years. Of course I wouldn't offer him a drink to celebrate something, but I'm also not going to treat him like he's unwelcome in my house just because there's alcohol present. Because I understand the progress his made and his level of stability and that I can trust him. I can make him feel loved and welcome and accepted instead of ostracized for the low points that his condition used to have him in. 

Why is this a difficult concept? I am not saying, and have never said, that Shallan in the depths of her spiral in OB (or whatever is coming) should just be accepted as wonderful and everyone should keep their mouth shut... But that's the reaction this receives.

If someone has diabetes and learns to control their diet and lifestyle and has no impairment, do we constantly have to monitor the food they choose to eat? No. Is their condition gone? Of course not. Why is this different?

I have severe enough depression that at my lowest I didn't leave my bed for three days because it didn't seem worth the effort. That was a good 15 years ago. Through therapy and medication, and a better support network, I have not felt that way in a long time... But I still have depression, and there are times that my mood is still drastically out of wack for no apparent reason. I've learned to recognize this, and cope with the fluctuations, and move on. I'm far far more stable, far more mentally healthy, far happier. And yet symptoms remain at a level that many still find abnormal. 

My entire point is covered by the end of Robot's post. 

5 hours ago, Robot said:

Like posters before me have said sometimes the damage done is too deep and the way to move forward and live is to accept the multiple personalities, since irl(I think, don't quote me on this) actually letting go of the personalities is so hard that it's often not even a goal when talking about treatment.

Exactly this. Kaladin has depression. He can learn to cope with that and it will get "better" but it will never go away. Dalinar faced and accepted the actions he fled from, but he will always live with that guilt, and he will always be a recovering alcoholic. 

Shallan will stabilize and improve. But she will always have a dissociative disorder, even if she reintigrates. The primary reason I want her to not reintigrate is so that we, as readers, are not mislead into thinking she is "fixed." 

4 hours ago, The Traveller said:

Really makes me doubt that Shallan is on a path towards recovery. This made me doubt her claims that thr three have achieved stability or atleast that the balance is extremely fragile.

That balance absolutely is fragile at the moment. But I also don't see this as as big a sign of that as I think most people do. 

Shallan's low in OB was very bad. Whatever progress she has made in the past year was not instant, and those events are not that far gone. I read this section as someone who has reached a point of relative stability... But that that state is so new as to be in perpetual doubt. Which is in itself a danger. 

Clearly, with this being the start of the story, this is foreshadowing things to come. But if in the end this point, without the self doubt, is where Shallan's condition tops out and The Three is a continued system of plurality? I would accept that and congratulate her for her progress. 

————————————————————————

I fully expected the pushback that exists in this thread. I am very aware of mental health stigma from my own issues, and that of family, and friends, and just... Life in general. To be frank, I'm surprised that there hasn't been more of it and louder. 

Mental health, as a whole, is treated poorly when it's not outright ignored. Media perpetuates misinformation and outright falsehoods in the name of entertainment, in most instances without malice. The stigma is perpetuated and creates exceedingly harmful situation for those who suffer from conditions, and creates an environment that people deny their own issues rather than seek treatment. 

I have severe depression and sociopathic traits. My father is a recovering alcoholic with alexythimia. My son is on the autism spectrum. 

I see the effects of this stigma on a daily basis. I regularly deal with people who would rather risk their child die from a preventable illness than face the sheer (completely false and unfounded) possibility that their child could end up like my son. I have literally had people tell me that their child dying would be preferable to their child being autistic. 

Yes, mental health is a highly personal issue to me. Yes I would love for things to be presented in a manner that favors realistic outcomes and normalizes acceptance of people who have done their best to deal with their issues even when that does not result in what is viewed as "normal."

That does not, and will never mean avoiding treatment. It should mean the opposite. Because removing the stigma means removing the fear people have of being labeled as "other" by society in the first place. 

I doubt this will shift enough in my lifetime for me to be happy with the outcome, but that's really not the point. Things will never change if no one tries to change them. To quote a wonderful book everyone here loves. 

Quote

Somebody has to start. Somebody has to step forward and do what is right, because it is right. If nobody starts, then others cannot follow.

 

Edited August 21, 2020 by Calderis

[Aon Tia]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

Clearly, with this being the start of the story, this is foreshadowing things to come. But if in the end this point, without the self doubt, is where Shallan's condition tops out and The Three is a continued system of plurality? I would accept that and congratulate her for her progress. 

I agree with you here. If she has found the balance and is able to make it more stable by the end of this book or next then I say yeyy for her. 
But I really want an Adolin point of view here about what he thinks of the whole situation.  
Mostly because I expect him to be very supportive of her and I see it as an opportunity to show understanding and acceptance of mental health issues by others especially by their near and dear ones 

Edited August 21, 2020 by The Traveller

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

5 hours ago, Isilel said:

Shallan has claimed since WoR that her true self was a shattered, mute little girl lying in the dark, hasn't she? That could serve as her "child" alter in the light of going full DID and it could be argued that it didn't speak up until now because it is, well, mute.

That's a very good point. With my limited understanding of DID, it does seem like there is an internal self selection of the body controlling alter that is best suited to handle a given situation, so it might be highly unlikely that Shallan would inadvertently switch to her child alter in a scene, that as a reader, I would hate to experience.

5 hours ago, Isilel said:

The "Odium's champion" plot is done after OB, surely? And if Kaladin's depression doesn't make him less interesting by "insulating (him) from outcomes", why should Shallan's DID?

Well, I'm really of the opinion that Odium already made his choice, Dalinar, and it was in the presence of a Bondsmith (Dalinar), so I tend to think of that as a done deal. But I've seen enough good speculation on the Shard to be less confident in that assessment, and my point was that having someone with DID turn out to be the Champion of the enemy didn't seem very plausible, mostly because Brandon would be trying to avoid negative stereotypes in an attempt to be respectful of those who have DID in real life.

But the more I've thought about it after reading posts on this thread, the more I agree with your point. If Shallan is depicted realistically then her actions are her own, and the DID she struggles with is just a part of her character that doesn't control or dictate her arc anymore than someone who stutters would be controlled by their struggles to speak.

I really did start off being very annoyed that Shallan was going down the DID path, but that's the nice thing about civil discourse with intelligent people, it's one of the few spaces where meaningful change can occur.

I can clearly see the way forward for Shallan, and her struggles are just a much a part of her as Kaladin's, Teft's, or Dalinar's. She's not a medical condition substituting for a character, she's a character with a medical condition. The DID doesn't make her good or bad, it's just part of who she is, and Brandon being the skilled author that is, only needs to portray her condition realistically, not filter her actions through a lens meant to pander to an underdog community.

The fact that it was a multiplicity in a single body doesn't change the extreme poignancy of the scene in Kholinar where Wit tells Shallan that she is the version of herself that stood up, in a lot of ways it makes it even more touching. Accepting yourself for who you are also means accepting the struggles that define you as well, that's just part of the journey.

Big hug for you @Calderis, you are such an amazing guy. You're a pillar of what I think is the best online community of them all (I've never joined any other except for Tor to comment on pre-release chapters before OB's release, so take that with a grain of salt). Your thoughtful posts, insightful analysis and just big heart are some of the reasons I'm still active on the shard.

You've set a really nice tone for this discussion, and quite frankly are one of the reasons that I gave this issue enough thought to change my mind about this. And that video @Kargerlinked to was great as well.

Edited August 21, 2020 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine
Typos, always typos

[Master Silver]

For the record, I haven't read all or even most of the comments. This is more of an observation on the way the world (our world) is going.

From a purely theological perspective, on Shallan, and all the rest of the Radiants, Brandon's world building of a world where the super heroes are broken in some way shape or form is extremely difficult. What many, especially the young seem to misunderstand is that brokenness is not preferable to being whole. Better to grow up in a family where your dad did not rage and beat you and your siblings. Better to never have touched fire moss than struggle with addiction. Better to not have to deal with chronic depression. In theological terms (at least from a Judaeo-Christian perspective) we call these things the consequences of sin, original sin that is. Kaladin's depression wuld fall under this category. There are of course natural consequences of actual sin too. Teft's addiction would fall under this category. Should any of the Radiants be persecuted or stigmatized because of the things they struggle with? Of course not. But should we put on rose colored glasses and say as long as they are content and not hurting anyone else they are fine and just like everyone else? Certainly not. 

Abuse, disease, addiction, depression, all need to be taken seriously, and I think it starts with recognizing brokenness. In the Christian religion (as I'm sure you know) the solution to the brokenness of the world is found in the Atonement. The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. For our Radiants I hope and fully expect that Brandon will work toward some resolution and healing. We have seen that start for many. Some will fail. Teft, Kaladin, Shallan, any of them could commit suicide. But his point will not be that they did not get help or that everyone simply put on rose colored glasses and ignored the challenges these individuals faced so long as they are happy. Anyway, just my thoughts

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Big hug for you @Calderis, you are such an amazing guy. You're a pillar of what I think is the best online community of them all (I've never joined any other except for Tor to comment on pre-release chapters before OB's release, so take that with a grain of salt). Your thoughtful posts, insightful analysis and just big heart are some of the reasons I'm still active on the shard.

You've set a really nice tone for this discussion, and quite frankly are one of the reasons that I gave this issue enough thought to change my mind about this. And that video @Kargerlinked to was great as well.

Thank you. I will admit that this being such a personal issue, trying to maintain that tone is... Difficult at times. But because it means so much to me, I also realize that getting angry, and lashing out is going to do nothing but distract from the point I want to make. 

Thank you so so much for taking the time to look at your initial reaction and reassess. I've found that most people, unfortunately, aren't able to manage it. 

23 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

But should we put on rose colored glasses and say as long as they are content and not hurting anyone else they are fine and just like everyone else? Certainly not. 

Religion aside, because I'm not going to address that aspect (and Brandon has made a point not to show preference to any faith or lack there of despite his own, which I respect greatly), if you think that that is what this thread is about, than you have missed my point completely. 

It is not about rose colored glasses. It's about recognizing the distance that they've come and accepting the fact that sometimes "normal" is literally not an attainable goal. 

If that is your requirement for them to be "better" then in many many cases they never will be. And that perception is a problem. 

Edited August 21, 2020 by Calderis

[Master Silver]

@Calderis Yeah, I'm not saying that they will ever be "normal" or 100% or whatever others want to call it. I mean who is?  I am simply saying that things need to be addressed and recognized as broken. And of course I think you did that in your post at the top of the page. I imagine there are many young people on these forums and it is good for them to be reminded of such things. And I address things from a theological perspective because that is what I am qualified to do. Brandon is addressing these issues in his stormlight series.

The ancient Greeks often strove after virtue in various forms. Whether or not people obtain it can be argued, but the striving after virtue made their society better. Same thing with any of these issues. Addressing them, and being of service, to help, like how Adolin serves as an anchor to Shallan keeping her grounded in reality, or how Kaladin's friends draw him out from himself, or how Teft's friends hold him accountable, or how in our world medicine and treatment often help. Such things make the lives characters who are suffering (and in real life we all deal with different crosses)  more blessed and such crosses easier to bear, but these burdens should nevertheless be called what they are. Does that make sense? 

[Greywatch]

36 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

@Calderis Yeah, I'm not saying that they will ever be "normal" or 100% or whatever others want to call it. I mean who is?  I am simply saying that things need to be addressed and recognized as broken. And of course I think you did that in your post at the top of the page. I imagine there are many young people on these forums and it is good for them to be reminded of such things. And I address things from a theological perspective because that is what I am qualified to do. Brandon is addressing these issues in his stormlight series.

The ancient Greeks often strove after virtue in various forms. Whether or not people obtain it can be argued, but the striving after virtue made their society better. Same thing with any of these issues. Addressing them, and being of service, to help, like how Adolin serves as an anchor to Shallan keeping her grounded in reality, or how Kaladin's friends draw him out from himself, or how Teft's friends hold him accountable, or how in our world medicine and treatment often help. Such things make the lives characters who are suffering (and in real life we all deal with different crosses)  more blessed and such crosses easier to bear, but these burdens should nevertheless be called what they are. Does that make sense? 

Speaking from the Christian tradition myself, having done my own share of study, mainstream theological thought does not allow for the differentiation of mental illness making people more broken than other people. Everyone is broken. I've seen it described as some people may have more burdens to carry in their life, but describing someone as broken for having a mental illness... I would fight that label. I don't think that's a legitimate thing to call someone for having a mental issue, except perhaps for discussions on Brandon's magic system affecting cracked spirit-webs. People can describe themselves as "broken" for any reason, but to say that we need to recognize others as "broken" feels really... bad, and I would disagree, even from a Christian perspective.

I'm happy with the language Calderis already used. These "burdens" have names, and he's already been very clear that supporting people with mental issues already looks like what you describe with the SA characters supporting each other. A change of language is not necessary.

[Calderis]

I understand the use of the word "broken" in the context of SA... But yeah, I wouldn't use that to describe anyone in real life. 

Everyone has struggles. Everyone breaks. The important thing is that you try to pick up the pieces and hold yourself back together. The final product looks different for everyone, but I believe that it's perfectly possible to come out of the experience stronger than where you started. I'll never be "normal" and I'm fine with that. Breaking has let me see people and places and parts of the world I never would have if none of it had ever happened, and I've learned a lot from it all. 

As much as my past traumas and trials have made parts of my life harder, I also wouldn't be me without them. I wouldn't have met my wife or have my son. I wouldn't change any of it... Even the parts I'd rather forget. Even the parts I still regret. 

We break, and we learn from the past, and we get help from our friends and family and professionals. We grow. 

Learn from the past. Look to the future. And never let others ignorance define you. 

There's a reason Brandon is my favorite author, and as much as I'm addicted to realmatics this is why. 

3 years ago, if you had told me I saw the potential for Shallan to become my favorite character, I'd have laughed in your face. This change, and what it could mean though? She's well on her way. I can't wait to see how she puts her pieces together, and how much stronger she is because of it. 

[Master Silver]

lol so I am not going to get drawn into a theological debate @Greywatch.I had a super long post, but I deleted it. I never said more broken. But people will be people and hear what they want to hear. I am using well established Christian theological language. As a theologian (by profession), I often use words according to their theological use.  

@Calderis Journey before destination Radiant. Thanks for sharing

[Greywatch]

@Master Silver A lot of the people here aren't Christian and wouldn't find that conversation appealing or convincing, so despite my own urge to go off on that tangent as well, it's probably for the best. However, in a topic about mental health where traumatized and mentally ill people are the focus of what everyone is talking about, the implication did very strongly come off in your post that neurodivergent people needed to be recognized as "broken" carries the implication of "as opposed to neurotypical people", and I stand by that as an understanding of your post sans explanation. (Your post also did come at the tail end of a conversation in the thread about the definitions of normal vs abnormal, healthy vs unhealthy, and what it means for neurodivergent people to always have the label of "unhealthy" on them and be denied the "good" labels, so I do believe folks reading through the thread as a whole might also take it in the same way I did. Context is king, and I believe the root of the misunderstanding here.)

[Calderis]

Interesting article that a friend just shared with me unrelated to this thread that I thought would be a nice point to share here. 

https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200817-the-batman-effect-how-having-an-alter-ego-empowers-you?ocid=twwl

Creating a persona, while obviously not to the extent shallan does, can be something that can benefit everyone's emotional health in their every day life. 

Who'd have ever guessed that the lines aren't as cut and dry as everyone likes to think. 

Edited August 22, 2020 by Calderis

[Aon Tia]

11 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

having someone with DID turn out to be the Champion of the enemy didn't seem very plausible,

Personally I do not think that it is very likely that Shallan will turn out to be odium’s champion. Because the whole deal with odium as we have seen is to take away their pain and suffering and make them his. But I do not see Shallan falling for this because she has found her own way of dealing with the pain. She has fractured her self into multiple personalities in order to be able to function despite all the pain and suffering. This goes quite opposite from how dalinar was totally non functioning in those years. Shallan was too for many years but then she found a way to come out of it on her own and I think it was possible for her by creating an alter ego maskshallan who basically is a devout Vorin girl who is witty scholar and solves problems. And as she stepped out into the real world her challenges grew, she created more alter egos to deal with such challenges as well. However sustainable a model “the three” are or not, but I do not see her giving up to odium as an option she will choose. 

Edited August 22, 2020 by The Traveller

[Ailvara]

16 hours ago, Calderis said:

Exactly this. Kaladin has depression. He can learn to cope with that and it will get "better" but it will never go away. Dalinar faced and accepted the actions he fled from, but he will always live with that guilt, and he will always be a recovering alcoholic. 

Shallan will stabilize and improve. But she will always have a dissociative disorder, even if she reintigrates. The primary reason I want her to not reintigrate is so that we, as readers, are not mislead into thinking she is "fixed." 

That balance absolutely is fragile at the moment. But I also don't see this as as big a sign of that as I think most people do. 

Shallan's low in OB was very bad. Whatever progress she has made in the past year was not instant, and those events are not that far gone. I read this section as someone who has reached a point of relative stability... But that that state is so new as to be in perpetual doubt. Which is in itself a danger. 

I think what I've written - that Shallan will reintegrate but remain very fragile and always be at risk of spiraling down again given another distress - is about in line with what you're saying. The difference is that you believe that such state of fragile reintegration would be too subtle for readers to realize. Either I believe in Brandon's ability more (with the help from his DID-suffering betas) or care less about what inattentive readers think. I also understand you care more personally about how it'll land and so would like him to choose the "safer" path in that regard.

I think it's also crucial that Shallan didn't start her journey split as she is now. I find it hard to imagine she'd end up the series in a worse place than she started. Given the analogy to Kaladin and how he'll always suffer from his depression - he had it even before Tien's death and all that followed. I think he'll achieve more or less that state of mind by the end but with progress in the related areas, e.g. resilience to losing those he feels responsible about. So similarly Shallan, her benchmark isn't end of OB from which she needs to make a progress - her benchmark is WoK so she should end up similarly stable mentally (as we know today and not as we'd know when only starting WoK) but with all the added self-awareness.

Edit: One more think that came to my mind is, even though Brandon will tweak the details, he wouldn't change some major things as a result of this "shift of direction". For example, whatever he's got planned as Lightweaver's 5th Ideal, I don't think he'd change it. And given "I am law" we can expect not another precise truth about Shallan's past but something very vague, encompassing, summing up all previous Ideals. "I am me" or "I am Shallan, and Veil, and Radiant, and that frenzied child who killed her mother" something of the sorts. She's already aware of being each of these separately now so what's left is for her to become aware of being them all as one.

Edited August 22, 2020 by Ailvara

[Robot]

7 hours ago, The Traveller said:

Personally I do not think that it is very likely that Shallan will turn out to be odium’s champion. Because the whole deal with odium as we have seen is to take away their pain and suffering and make them his. But I do not see Shallan falling for this because she has found her own way of dealing with the pain. She has fractured her self into multiple personalities in order to be able to function despite all the pain and suffering. This goes quite opposite from how dalinar was totally non functioning in those years. Shallan was too for many years but then she found a way to come out of it on her own and I think it was possible for her by creating an alter ego maskshallan who basically is a devout Vorin girl who is witty scholar and solves problems. And as she stepped out into the real world her challenges grew, she created more alter egos to deal with such challenges as well. However sustainable a model “the three” are or not, but I do not see her giving up to odium as an option she will choose. 

To be completely fair out of the main characters Shallan is the one who most hides her pain and doesn't acknowledge it, at least for now, which seems to be how Odium ropes people into working for him. 

 

4 hours ago, Ailvara said:

I think what I've written - that Shallan will reintegrate but remain very fragile and always be at risk of spiraling down again given another distress - is about in line with what you're saying. The difference is that you believe that such state of fragile reintegration would be too subtle for readers to realize. Either I believe in Brandon's ability more (with the help from his DID-suffering betas) or care less about what inattentive readers think. I also understand you care more personally about how it'll land and so would like him to choose the "safer" path in that regard.

I think it's also crucial that Shallan didn't start her journey split as she is now. I find it hard to imagine she'd end up the series in a worse place than she started. Given the analogy to Kaladin and how he'll always suffer from his depression - he had it even before Tien's death and all that followed. I think he'll achieve more or less that state of mind by the end but with progress in the related areas, e.g. resilience to losing those he feels responsible about. So similarly Shallan, her benchmark isn't end of OB from which she needs to make a progress - her benchmark is WoK so she should end up similarly stable mentally (as we know today and not as we'd know when only starting WoK) but with all the added self-awareness.

Edit: One more think that came to my mind is, even though Brandon will tweak the details, he wouldn't change some major things as a result of this "shift of direction". For example, whatever he's got planned as Lightweaver's 5th Ideal, I don't think he'd change it. And given "I am law" we can expect not another precise truth about Shallan's past but something very vague, encompassing, summing up all previous Ideals. "I am me" or "I am Shallan, and Veil, and Radiant, and that frenzied child who killed her mother" something of the sorts. She's already aware of being each of these separately now so what's left is for her to become aware of being them all as one.

WoK Shallan was hiding a lot of things from herself, I wouldn't want her to go back to that. I want Shallan to completely accept her own past and move on from there, hopefully reining in her personalities and keeping everything in check.

[Master Silver]

10 hours ago, Greywatch said:

@Master Silver A lot of the people here aren't Christian and wouldn't find that conversation appealing or convincing, so despite my own urge to go off on that tangent as well, it's probably for the best. However, in a topic about mental health where traumatized and mentally ill people are the focus of what everyone is talking about, the implication did very strongly come off in your post that neurodivergent people needed to be recognized as "broken" carries the implication of "as opposed to neurotypical people", and I stand by that as an understanding of your post sans explanation. (Your post also did come at the tail end of a conversation in the thread about the definitions of normal vs abnormal, healthy vs unhealthy, and what it means for neurodivergent people to always have the label of "unhealthy" on them and be denied the "good" labels, so I do believe folks reading through the thread as a whole might also take it in the same way I did. Context is king, and I believe the root of the misunderstanding here.)

@Greywatch Yeah, I was coming in at the end of the discussion which is always tough. But good discussion. @Calderis thanks for the link. I will have to read it. I have noticed people get a bit of that empowerment feeling when online. Everyone can really remake themselves into whoever they want. Anyway thanks for bringing me into the discussion. Cheers

[Aon Tia]

2 hours ago, Robot said:

To be completely fair out of the main characters Shallan is the one who most hides her pain and doesn't acknowledge it, at least for now, which seems to be how Odium ropes people into working for him. 

She hid her pain in Wok true but as of now, she has acknowledged her pain. Saying it out loud has fractured her sure but she has faced it and through her alter egos learnt to deal with it. This time around, facing her past and pain and guilt, She did not enter a catatonic state. Instead she is able to function, be a radiant and help actively in the fight against odium. I see that as progress and therefore feel confident that she will not succumb to odium. 
Are there more truths to face, sure. Is there more pain to face, still more memories she has suppressed, it seems likely. Could there be an even greater downward spiral? Possible. But so far, she has found a workable solution and I think giving upto odium is not something that will happen. But if it happens, I would be ok with it too. What could be worse than the truth of killing both your parents though? I wonder. 

 

2 hours ago, Robot said:

WoK Shallan was hiding a lot of things from herself, I wouldn't want her to go back to that. I want Shallan to completely accept her own past and move on from there, hopefully reining in her personalities and keeping everything in check.

Here I agree with you. I do not at all agree with @Ailvara that Wok shallan is the ideal desirable state for shallan. Wok shallan, maskShallan is not all mentally stable. She has suppressed her memories to an extent that she suppresses her full potential also. She is radiant who cannot use her powers. She has a blade she can not summon. She has As good as killed her spren. I would hardly call her functional. MaskShallan surely is an alter ego, the scholar, that has been created to deal with the needs of her family and nothing more. 
Therefore saying that wok shallan is the ideal she needs to achieve is same as saying that she needs to get rid of veil and radiant and she was fine as she was in wok. But I disagree. Shallan Is disassociated true but I still see it as progress for her. 

Edited August 22, 2020 by The Traveller

[Ailvara]

30 minutes ago, The Traveller said:

  agree with you. I do not at all agree with @Ailvara that Wok shallan is the ideal desirable state for shallan. Wok shallan, maskShallan is not all mentally stable. She has suppressed her memories to an extent that she suppresses her full potential also. She is radiant who cannot use her powers. She has a blade she can not summon. She has As good as killed her spren. I would hardly call her functional. MaskShallan surely is an alter ego, the scholar, that has been created to deal with the needs of her family and nothing more. 

Therefore saying that wok shallan is the ideal she needs to achieve is same as saying that she needs to get rid of veil and radiant and she was fine as she was in wok. But I disagree. Shallan Is disassociated true but I still see it as progress for her. 

You completely missed the "with the added self-awareness part, which makes all the difference. Also no, she isn't supposed to discard Veil and Radiant, they were part of Shallan in WoK which is exactly my point.

[Aon Tia]

2 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

You completely missed the "with the added self-awareness part, which makes all the difference. Also no, she isn't supposed to discard Veil and Radiant, they were part of Shallan in WoK which is exactly my point.

Yes I did get where you were getting at but I don’t think self awareness is possible for Shallan at all without the help of her alter egos. 
I do not think that veil and radiant were part of shallan in wok. More like the potential to create veil and radiant was there. But she had suppressed those parts of her, radiant- who played with surges and had a blade, veil- the survivalist or the murderer.  
Shallan in wok was another alter ego- the scholar, the problem solver of her family. 
I don’t think she is the True Shallan. 
True shallan could have been, had none of the bad things happened to her. Had she been born in a normal family. 
True shallan does not exist. She never got a chance to be. 

[Calderis]

From a narrative perspective trying to end Shallan where she starts would take her to a place of better outward presentation but larger flaws (much like Kaladin's view is first seen in the slave wagon) 

From a perspective of where she actually started... We still haven't seen that. Her flashbacks are riddled with dissociative moments. And we've seen nothing of her life before her mother's death. 

8 hours ago, Ailvara said:

For example, whatever he's got planned as Lightweaver's 5th Ideal, I don't think he'd change it. And given "I am law" we can expect not another precise truth about Shallan's past but something very vague, encompassing, summing up all previous Ideals.

I'm quoting this part, because I think it's been blown way out of proportion generally. We have the Skybreakers description of their fifth as the oath in which they "become the law" and no explanation as to what that means or that it is in anyway some universal shift in the final oaths of the orders. 

Brandon has said that other than the First, Lightweavers don't have oaths, they have personal truths. I do believe that Shallan's Fifth will be her most fundamental Truth, but I don't think it will be some all encompassing self awareness that prevents all ability to lie to herself (from a psychological viewpoint that's just... Unrealistic as hell. We lie to ourselves constantly in little ways we never realize.)

I think Shallan's Fifth is going to relate directly to the fact that we have still yet to see life before her mother's death. Every time that it has been brushed on or alluded to, Shallan presents it as a happy, stable, fairy tale family. She places all of the blame for what her family is on her own shoulders as if killing her mother is the moment that all the problems started. Perfect happy fairy tale mother's don't try to kill their children. 

This is an obvious lie. Not only did her mother try to kill her, but everyone was perfectly willing to believe that Lin killed her and her "friend" in a rage. That doesn't come out of nowhere. Her family has always been a chaotic mess, and I think that childhood trauma is the source of all her problems. 

My thoughts on what her childhood and her final truth are is this. I see child Shallan as a frightened and confused little girl, surrounded by violence and chaos, trying desperately to pretend that her life is a happy one. I think that's the lie that draws Pattern to her in the first place. And so she discovers her powers and begins to explore them with the abandon and delight of a child. Creating imagery and "imaginary friends" to have some semblance of happiness... And we know where that leads. 

Shallan placed the blame for the ruin of her family on her own shoulders the same way a young child will blame themselves for their parents divorce. Her Fifth truth, and her key to stability in whatever form that takes, is what Wit already told her. None of this is her fault. 

 

[Aon Tia]

I agree @Calderis I do not think that Shallan before her mother died had a fairy tale life at all. I think it is the biggest lie of all. That family was messed up from the beginning. 
I also don’t think that there exists a true Shallan or a core personality buried deep down. Disassociation started so early in her life that I don’t think she got time enough to develop a core personality. I think that is the main reason for her DID, her various alter egos are all she has. There is no core shallan to reintegrate back to. She has asked herself this question before, who is the real shallan? What does she really want? I don’t know I don’t know has been the answer. 

Edited August 22, 2020 by The Traveller

[Robot]

"True" Shallan is our Shallan, she isn't any less true for what happened to her, what we see is different aspects of Shallan Davar. I agree that her family probably was either messed up from the beginning or has some other kind of secrets, the ghostblood letter on them had a couple of weird things in it, like saying Nale went personally for surgebinders just after saying her mom went with an agent for her. Her thoughts on helping her dad imply life was relatively normal though, I guess we'll see.

Edited August 22, 2020 by Robot

[ftl]

I love how in chapter 8, 

Spoiler

Shallan asks herself the same questions we’re asking here. She concludes that she’s stable and functioning and not regressing but has a ways to go, but doesn’t want to take that next step yet. Part of her does (Veil) but not all of her.

 

[Subvisual Haze]

Maybe Brandon is just having a meta-laugh at our expense in repeatedly changing the fundamental intent of Shallan's character book after book.  From PTSD Shallan with elements of dissociation to "Multiple Personality" Shallan with what he insists isn't actually DID, to what is now apparently intended to be an accurate representational portrayal of DID.

At this rate Shallan will develop Morgellons in book 5.

[Aon Tia]

15 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Maybe Brandon is just having a meta-laugh at our expense in repeatedly changing the fundamental intent of Shallan's character book after book.  From PTSD Shallan with elements of dissociation to "Multiple Personality" Shallan with what he insists isn't actually DID, to what is now apparently intended to be an accurate representational portrayal of DID.

At this rate Shallan will develop Morgellons in book 5.

I like the change that he has brought to her character arc though. After a long time , I am finding reading about Shallan interesting! I want to read more about her and I am very very curious about what more is there to unearth about her past. All that she has done? If people knew then they would leave her? Adolin, who did not leave her despite knowing that she killed her own father and mother, will leave her after knowing all that she has done!? 
I am intrigued. After OB, I had not expected it but I want more of Shallan. 
So Shallan has taken a shift in an interesting direction, atleast it is so for me. 

Edited September 4, 2020 by The Traveller

[+Bliev]

15 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Maybe Brandon is just having a meta-laugh at our expense in repeatedly changing the fundamental intent of Shallan's character book after book.  From PTSD Shallan with elements of dissociation to "Multiple Personality" Shallan with what he insists isn't actually DID, to what is now apparently intended to be an accurate representational portrayal of DID.

At this rate Shallan will develop Morgellons in book 5.

After my 5th re-read just completed (eek), I actually see it as a pretty consistent narrative of her character: Overwhelming panic over her family led her to Jasnah. But to overcome her PTSD she had to lie and pretend from the moment she began. She dissociates from her past and the fake personas that don't remember anything become more attractive all the while. Then Jasnah is "murdered" (from her eye) and she has to continue (while secretly she's actually loving this because she's far from home and can pretend in any way she wants and also hates herself so if she dies she dies, in her mind). She meets Adolin--she actually likes him and inadvertently acts like "herself" for even a moment, even while she's continuing to pretend. Then chasms, facing her past, and growth. But still she won't *really* face it because lying is so much easier, so she persists--just pushing the forboding down deeper, even as Pattern hums in concerns. Then OB--and the lying is So. Much. Easier. than the truth, particularly with stormlight! She can be anyone! No one cares for Shallan anyways, right? Her parents hated her. Her brothers probably don't even miss her. Adolin won't love the "real" shallan. She should really just eff it all up by going for Kaladin anyways. That's what she deserves, right? Just to screw it up and have everyone hate her. But Adolin is so NICE and cute and--she finds herself being authentic, surprisingly, and growth again--she decides to stop dissociating for awhile. Maybe three personalities is enough to function. She stops lying so much. At least for the most part. Now RoW we see the Ghostbloods lie creeping up on her...which she's totally dissociated from the whole time! She just hides it and pushes it off and "I'll tell him sometime". This is classic Shallan. Avoiding confrontation, by magical means or otherwise, until it bites her in the chull. Now we just have to see if not confronting her own PTSD will mean that she actually does self destruct, or if she can overcome it--magically and otherwise. I find it utterly captivating. 

 

But then again, she's been my fav from day 1, and I'm totally an Adolin Superfan, so that's maybe not surprising? :-)