Calderis

Shallan's shift in direction.

112 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

At the end of OB we had WoBs saying that Brandon didn't want Shallan to actually be a representation of DID, and while I still think that's true to an extent, he definitely seems to have changed tack. 

Quote

Vivasher Club Emo Teen (@skywardflights)

I know people who relate a lot to Shallan's arc due to how similar her personalities are to Dissociative Identity Disorder. Did you intentionally write her to be recognizable DID?

Brandon Sanderson

I did, but I shied away from it in the earlier books, because I knew I was going to be doing fantastical things, and I didn't want to be offering too much commentary on DID. That was kind of my worry. With Kaladin, I knew depression well enough from family members and things that I felt like I could be a very strong contributor to the conversation. But, I started with Shallan saying, "I don't know if I'm gonna go this route." But then, the further I went, the more I felt it would be irresponsible to not do this. And so, in the last books, I just bit the bullet, dug really far into the DSMV and into reading firsthand, primary accounts from people. We got a very helpful person with DID to be one of our beta readers for this last book. And I just did my best to present it accurately and to present the non-Hollywood verison of it. And so, basically, Oathbringer and Rhythm of War lean into it a little more than the first two books do, though that was where I was going. And I do have a working knowledge of Dissociative Identity Disorder, and did even back then. I don't think I did a terrible job, but I think it would have been irresponsible for me to go forward without digging in a little further.

YouTube Livestream 13 (July 23, 2020)

After OB, I thought her goal was going to end up being reintegration... And now I think that's unlikely. 

Shallan, in the scenes we've been shown is much much more ordered than she was in OB. Her personalities are far more distinct, but they're also working cohesively, shifting control intentionally to play to each other strengths.

Considering Brandon's take on mental disorder being presented as something that shouldn't need to be "fixed" or "healed" I no longer think that reintegration would or should be her goal. 

Shallan built these personas the same way that people shift between different masks in different social situations... But she carried it to extremes. The magic aided that growth and segregation, but I think at this point it would exist even without the magic. 

At this point, I think Shallan is another example of inclusion and representation, and she will become a stable and functioning neurodivergent character, rather than a "mentally broken" women who needs to "fix" her issues. 

To be perfectly honest, one of the main reasons I think she's drastically improved in the year gap, is that in OB she was a train wreck that I couldn't bring myself to look away from. But now? Now she's got what seems to work as a functioning team of specialists in her head that co-operate seemlessly in a way that makes me kind of jealous. Never thought I'd feel that about Shallan in a million years. 

Edit: in today's (August 18th) preview chapter 7, there is a use of "The Three" that Peter confirmed was intentionally used in the singular. 

Quote

Adarain

Quick grammar question for /u/peterahlstrom: In the sentence 'Instead, the Three dismissed her Blade", shouldn’t that probably be "their Blade" ? Or is it a deliberate decision to refer to the Three in the singular?

Peter Ahlstrom

It's deliberate.

General Reddit 2020 (Jan. 1, 2020)

This fits with a plural system having a name, which is not uncommon. 

Edited by Calderis
16

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agreed.  I really really dislike the whole "Shallan must integrate to be healthy" movement.  Not all people with DID manage to do it and for plenty of them that is perfectly normal and healthy.

6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting. It'll be super difficult to manage that respectfully, I think. Shallan is bound to make some progress mentally - I think we can all agree it won't make any sense if she finishes the first 5 books in the same place as she is now. So sure, she's got plenty to deal with aside from the alters - only they aren't really aside. Her trauma and, consequently, truths she needs to embrace, are the very root cause of her splitting. If she does deal with this root cause, her situation with alters will improve tons as well. According to what I've read, this is actually the way to treat patients with DID - to work on their trauma and if that's successful, then the alters that came to life in order to shield from that trauma are no longer necessary. If she was a complete mess at this moment, then perhaps coming to terms with her past would let her improve enough to achieve balance with the alters and be functional. However, since she's in pretty much as good a spot as she can be without reintegrating, then there isn't really anywhere else to go than reintegration once she remembers and comes to terms with her past.

There are also some red flags starting to pop out - from the top of my head:

  • Shallan literally can't live without Adolin nearby
  • Veil is apparently a cold-blooded murderer now

Hard to imagine we won't see any more of them or the consequences. 

Also, let's not forget Hoid and "I see only one woman there - the one who is standing" (paraphrased). This would be quite odd dramatically if we were given such a clear indication of what Shallan should aim at and then never see her get there.

6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Ailvara said:

Shallan literally can't live without Adolin nearby

I don't take that literally at all. 

3 hours ago, Ailvara said:

Veil is apparently a cold-blooded murderer now

Ialai needs to be dealt with, one way or another. Lightweavers are spies. I think she's behaving perfectly in line with her role. Shrugs

3 hours ago, Ailvara said:

Also, let's not forget Hoid and "I see only one woman there - the one who is standing" (paraphrased). This would be quite odd dramatically if we were given such a clear indication of what Shallan should aim at and then never see her get there.

Even with DID she'd be one woman. Distinct and different personalities can exist, and they're still all a part of her. 

He didn't tell her to get rid of them. 

Quote

“They rule me, Wit. Veil and Radiant and all the others. They’re consuming me.”
Then be ruled as a king is ruled by his subjects. Make Shallan so strong, the others must bow.

He told her to be in control. And she seems to be well on her way to that. 

For all most all "mental illness" the DSM has "significant impairment" as a requirement of diagnosis. You can be weird in all kinds of ways, and if you can function well that's all it is.

If she does not reintegrate, but she is not impaired, then it isn't a problem. Just like Kal can learn to manage his depression and function just fine, but he'll still have depression.

Edit: Brandon went to the trouble of finding a beta reader who has DID specifically for this issue. 

I strongly doubt at this point that his path forward With Shallan is going to be to tell that beta reader "you must change to be healthy." 

Edited by Calderis
5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just want to remind everyone that (as someone pointed out in another thread) Mr. Sanderson said recently that Shallan was in a "downward spiral", so I don't think what we see here is where things will stay.  I also as a reader would find it boring if what happened in the time skip was progress for Shallan that we didn't get to see!  I think that Adolin is an amazing influence on her, but that's a story we really need to read, and not have just skipped in between books!

So Calderis, I'm on the same page as you that Shallan has all the set up through Adolin to really end up in a stable place, but based on what the author himself said, it doesn't sound like she's there yet.  And I'm glad about that, as I can't wait to read how their relationship develops :) 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the tack has changed the goals so immensely that it gives the reader whiplash. Before it definitely looked like Brandon was going for “other personalities bad, Shallan should be the only personality at the end of her character arc.” But now that he decided to go fully into DID that character arc probably won’t happen that way, which gives the aforementioned whiplash in readers (especially those not WoB aware) that had the story previously give the setup for an arc in the first three books and now the fourth is going off in a different direction. One that I’m good with, but one that also doesn’t perfectly line up with previous characterization and foreshadowing.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, MyrmidonOfAchilles said:

I think the tack has changed the goals so immensely that it gives the reader whiplash. Before it definitely looked like Brandon was going for “other personalities bad, Shallan should be the only personality at the end of her character arc.” But now that he decided to go fully into DID that character arc probably won’t happen that way, which gives the aforementioned whiplash in readers (especially those not WoB aware) that had the story previously give the setup for an arc in the first three books and now the fourth is going off in a different direction. One that I’m good with, but one that also doesn’t perfectly line up with previous characterization and foreshadowing.

I understand that completely, and am not going to say that I didn't go through it myself. There was definitely a period of reorientation for me here because I was strongly of the opinion that these weren't actually alters, and that Shallan needed them to become simple masks again and accept her lies. I definitely get it. 

But I can also, in this new context, look back and see that the problem wasn't the alters existing so much as it was Shallan's continual destabilization and the emergence of more. 

Again, like Kaladin's depression and how it makes many people who aren't accustomed to a realistic internal view there uncomfortable and annoyed with him, I think in retrospect this will be a situation that highlights that the problems in the previous books weren't what people thought they were. It's not the alters themselves that are bad, it's Shallan's loss of stability and functionality. 

I don't expect everyone to come around to it. With a condition as rare and alien to some people's thinking as DID is I can see a decent chunk of people outright rejecting the idea that their existing can ever be acceptable. I just think that Brandon's general outlook on mental health and what that means is something that's going to take this in the direction of functional stability and not "fixing" her. 

Edited by Calderis
2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, MyrmidonOfAchilles said:

I think the tack has changed the goals so immensely that it gives the reader whiplash. Before it definitely looked like Brandon was going for “other personalities bad, Shallan should be the only personality at the end of her character arc.” But now that he decided to go fully into DID that character arc probably won’t happen that way, which gives the aforementioned whiplash in readers (especially those not WoB aware) that had the story previously give the setup for an arc in the first three books and now the fourth is going off in a different direction. One that I’m good with, but one that also doesn’t perfectly line up with previous characterization and foreshadowing.

That could be Shallan's change in attitude over the past year.  Before she was treating them either as the enemy or as reasons to not take care of herself because they had that job.  She has clearly been making progress since then.  I wonder if at some point we could go back and make a couple tweaks to Shallan's internal dialogue to make this clearer.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Calderis said:

I understand that completely, and am not going to say that I didn't go through it myself. There was definitely a period of reorientation for me here because I was strongly of the opinion that these weren't actually alters, and that Shallan needed them to become simple masks again and accept her lies. I definitely get it. 

But I can also, in this new context, look back and see that the problem wasn't the alters existing so much as it was Shallan's continual destabilization and the emergence of more. 

Again, like Kaladin's depression and how it makes people who aren't accustomed to a realistic internal view there makes many uncomfortable and annoyed with him, I think in retrospect this will be a situation that highlights that the problems in the previous books weren't what people thought they were. It's not the alters themselves that are bad, it's Shallan's loss of stability and functionality. 

I don't expect everyone to come around to it. With a condition as rare and alien to some people's thinking as DID I can see a decent chunk of people outright rejecting the idea that their existing can ever be acceptable. I just think that Brandon's general outlook on mental health and what that means is something that's going to take this in the direction of functional stability and not "fixing" her. 

I think I agree with this. I think in OB, a lot of people took the splitting into three personas as a core problem, when I think looking back with our new information in mind, the splitting was a symptom or result of the real problem. The personas were - are - a coping mechanism she used in OB where she was spiraling, but that doesn't make the coping mechanism inherently troublesome. I think it's a scary and threatening idea to people who aren't multiplicities, but I certainly had a paradigm shift when I was doing my own reading and found out that some people just exist with alters without losing the alters being a goal. Some coping mechanisms are bad, but just because I found the idea frightening to me doesn't actually mean it's a bad or unhealthy coping mechanism.

I do think we're supposed to see Shallan (and Veil and Radiant) as having made progress in between OB and RoW. Now, narrative structure should hold that where she starts at the beginning of the book is not where she'll end up, so I think she may be about to start spiraling again in RoW, but I don't believe we're supposed to be going with the idea that she's gotten worse over the year.

From chapter 2,

  • This last year, the three of them had settled into a comfortable balance. They weren’t as separate as they’d been, and swapped personas easily.

This isn't written as an opinion of either of the three; it's just the text.

  • Things seemed to be going so well. That made Veil worry, of course. Were they going too well?

Even if Veil is too in control - which I don't believe - we wouldn't be directly lied to about what she feels. Misled, perhaps, but not lied to. Veil (1) believes things are working well and (2) is worried that the other shoe is going to drop.

In these chapters, they seem to agree very quickly, even instantaneously on who should be in charge, and it's very practiced and comfortable. They're not anxious about any of the others taking over when not wanted or needed.

We're being given the tools to understand - even without Brandon's notes about her being in a downward spiral for RoW - that Shallan is about to have another mental health struggle. There's still something Shallan has to remember, and the three personas are currently stable and functional and comfortable. So, we can assume in the book, Shallan will remember what she's being prompted to remember, and the stability between the three will be threatened.

But the takeaway is, the three of them can be stable, and the existence of Veil and Radiant is not a bad thing. Shallan is now, and could be in the future, happy and healthy with Veil and Radiant in the mix.

10

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Greywatch agreed on all counts. My read of these opening bits is the same. 

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12.08.2020 at 9:59 PM, Calderis said:

I don't take that literally at all. 

I could take it figuratively if not for the "without you, I'm fading" in OB. Two instances is starting to be too much for a coincidence.

On 12.08.2020 at 9:59 PM, Calderis said:

Ialai needs to be dealt with, one way or another. Lightweavers are spies. I think she's behaving perfectly in line with her role. Shrugs

She does. Another way. Life before death, journey before destination and so on. Elhokar also needed to be dealt with because he was a bad king at the worst possible times coming and yet a terrible answer to it was to even to sit and wait for others to do the dirty job, not to mention finishing him personally. Knights Radiant clearly aren't supposed to take the easy way out. Dalinar has shown it again in you cannot have my pain and even though Shallan doesn't swear oaths, the first one applies to her as much as to anyone.

There's a world of difference between a spy and an assassin.

On 12.08.2020 at 9:59 PM, Calderis said:

I strongly doubt at this point that his path forward With Shallan is going to be to tell that beta reader "you must change to be healthy." 

Oh yes, it will be hard. But why making her integrate must mean: "you must do it too"? Why can't it mean: "you could do it too if you want" or "that was her journey, you can have another" or any other thing in the world?

23 hours ago, Greywatch said:

I do think we're supposed to see Shallan (and Veil and Radiant) as having made progress in between OB and RoW. Now, narrative structure should hold that where she starts at the beginning of the book is not where she'll end up, so I think she may be about to start spiraling again in RoW, but I don't believe we're supposed to be going with the idea that she's gotten worse over the year.

She spiraled down in OB and now she's supposed to have gotten much better off-screen only to spiral down again? This makes no sense dramaturgically. This is one long spiral and she's just in a "local optimum" and now she'll need to reach the very bottom to get out of it and be able to progress further.

Besides, her arc and Kaladin's are strongly paralleled, here and there throughout the series and also now in this RoW beginning, with their chapters so intertwined without any plot-related connection. They are both still struggling with the same issues that they did at the end of OB and earlier and I'm pretty sure we'll see them both hit the rock bottom somewhere in the middle of this book and rise back to swear their next oaths near the end. I think we're seeing here a beautiful contrast-parallel when Kaladin is clearly even worse from the start and Shallan is for now seems-okeish-but-something's-off only to show next she's after all in a very similarly dark point. Well, we'll find out soon enough.

23 hours ago, Greywatch said:

There's still something Shallan has to remember, and the three personas are currently stable and functional and comfortable. So, we can assume in the book, Shallan will remember what she's being prompted to remember, and the stability between the three will be threatened.

There are tensions there that will need to be addressed sooner or later. I think, if Shallan/Veil/Radiant remain a mix until the very end, it'll be like Veil in WoR - consciously applied masks over one core personality.

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

She spiraled down in OB and now she's supposed to have gotten much better off-screen only to spiral down again? This makes no sense dramaturgically. This is one long spiral and she's just in a "local optimum" and now she'll need to reach the very bottom to get out of it and be able to progress further.

Besides, her arc and Kaladin's are strongly paralleled, here and there throughout the series and also now in this RoW beginning, with their chapters so intertwined without any plot-related connection. They are both still struggling with the same issues that they did at the end of OB and earlier and I'm pretty sure we'll see them both hit the rock bottom somewhere in the middle of this book and rise back to swear their next oaths near the end. I think we're seeing here a beautiful contrast-parallel when Kaladin is clearly even worse from the start and Shallan is for now seems-okeish-but-something's-off only to show next she's after all in a very similarly dark point. Well, we'll find out soon enough.

Dramatic narrative is perfectly fine with it. We didn't see that year and it makes much more sense for them to reach a plateau offscreen where we can't see it and have this one last push for her final bit of development as the focus here.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/12/2020 at 9:58 AM, Karger said:

Agreed.  I really really dislike the whole "Shallan must integrate to be healthy" movement.  Not all people with DID manage to do it and for plenty of them that is perfectly normal and healthy.

Normal probably.  Healthy, probably not.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Greywatch said:

Dramatic narrative is perfectly fine with it. We didn't see that year and it makes much more sense for them to reach a plateau offscreen where we can't see it and have this one last push for her final bit of development as the focus here.

With plateau, yes. With her having made progress  - not so much.

On 12.08.2020 at 9:59 PM, Calderis said:

He told her to be in control. And she seems to be well on her way to that. 

I've finally found the quote. The thing is, it's not what Wit told her. It's what she hears when touching Ashertmarn, imagining maybe it could be Wit's voice... but it's all so twisted, accompanied by lines that are clearly Odium-influenced too:

Quote

Give it all to me, the voices whispered in Shallan’s mind. Give me your passion, your hunger, your longing, your loss. Surrender it. You are what you feel. [...]

She became a new person with every heartbeat. The voices seemed thrilled by this. They assaulted her, growing to a frenzy. Shallan was a thousand people in a moment. But which one was her?

All of them. A new voice. Wit’s?

"Wit!” she screamed, surrounded by snapping eels in a dark place. “Wit! Please.”

You’re all of them, Shallan. Why must you be only one emotion? One set of sensations? One role? One life?

“They rule me, Wit. Veil and Radiant and all the others. They’re consuming me.”

Then be ruled as a king is ruled by his subjects. Make Shallan so strong, the others must bow.

 

Edited by Ailvara
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

With plateau, yes. With her having made progress  - not so much.

I guess we can debate whether where she is at the beginning of RoW is a more or less positive direction, but I think it's a positive direction, and they have plateau'd. We'll just have to disagree on whether it's progress until the book comes out, but I think stability and the personas not fighting each other are great signs.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Ailvara said:

I could take it figuratively if not for the "without you, I'm fading" in OB. Two instances is starting to be too much for a coincidence.

I'm not going to take the equivalent of teenage melodrama as fact. I'm just not. 

1 hour ago, Ailvara said:

She does. Another way. Life before death, journey before destination and so on. Elhokar also needed to be dealt with because he was a bad king at the worst possible times coming and yet a terrible answer to it was to even to sit and wait for others to do the dirty job, not to mention finishing him personally. Knights Radiant clearly aren't supposed to take the easy way out. Dalinar has shown it again in you cannot have my pain and even though Shallan doesn't swear oaths, the first one applies to her as much as to anyone.

There's a world of difference between a spy and an assassin.

That is not what the first oath means. It is not universal in meaning. See Malata. Or the Skybreakers. Or the Elsecallers. They are not all the same ideologically. Many would be fine with it, just like we've been told that some orders would have no problem with the way that Adolin killed Sadeas and others would. 

1 hour ago, Ailvara said:

Oh yes, it will be hard. But why making her integrate must mean: "you must do it too"? Why can't it mean: "you could do it too if you want" or "that was her journey, you can have another" or any other thing in the world?

An equally valid question is "why should Shallan's healthy endpoint match with a neuro-normative opinion?" 

I understand the pushback to this. I really really do. I just think it's a result of people not understanding psych. Reintigration can be a goal. It isn't always, and there are a number of people who function perfectly well in society, mentally stable, while still being multiple. 

I am not saying reintegration is not a possibility. I just don't find it exceptionally likely, and find the idea that it "must" happen intolerant. Abnormal does not have to mean unhealthy. 

53 minutes ago, jamskinner said:

Normal probably.  Healthy, probably not.

See above. Everyone's psychology is different. The idea that "different" is inherently unhealthy is extremely problematic. 

42 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

I've finally found the quote. The thing is, it's not what Wit told her. It's what she hears when touching Ashertmarn, imagining maybe it could be Wit's voice... but it's all so twisted, accompanied by lines that are clearly Odium-influenced too:

I guess I just disagree then. I think that line was Wit, and that it's perfectly in line with the other advice he gave her. 

22 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

I guess we can debate whether where she is at the beginning of RoW is a more or less positive direction, but I think it's a positive direction, and they have plateau'd. We'll just have to disagree on whether it's progress until the book comes out, but I think stability and the personas not fighting each other are great signs.

Agreed. There is clearly a conflict coming between Radiant and Veil over Ialai, and I'll wait to see how they choose to deal with that conflict before I make any final decisions... 

For the time being though, I don't think this is Shallan's breakpoint. Narratively it's to early in this story and we've had no buildup to it. 

I think we'll see a internal confrontation, and they will find a resolution, but that this is going to foreshadow the disagreements that will lead to her breakpoint later in the book. 

Until we see more, it's just my feeling. 

Edited by Calderis
3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Man, I would hate it so much if Shallan doesn't reintegrate her personas. :lol:

Maybe I'm just narrow-minded and/or don't understand DID very well, but Shallan's situation DOES NOT strike me as healthy. Her situation definitely seems more stable than it was at the end of Oathbringer, but I would need a loooooot more convincing if I'm supposed to think this stability is a good long-term situation.

4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

19 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

Man, I would hate it so much if Shallan doesn't reintegrate her personas. :lol:

Maybe I'm just narrow-minded and/or don't understand DID very well, but Shallan's situation DOES NOT strike me as healthy. Her situation definitely seems more stable than it was at the end of Oathbringer, but I would need a loooooot more convincing if I'm supposed to think this stability is a good long-term situation.

That's... Honestly one of the reasons I hope Brandon goes the more real world route with the research and beta advice he's sought. 

Like I said, reintegration can be an endpoint goal, but it isn't always, or even necessarily a majority of the time. 

Brandon seems to generally try and approach "mental illness" from a viewpoint of it being a part of the character and not something that needs to be fixed. Recently, I've had the pleasure of interacting with someone who is a plurality and a fan of the books, and their perspective on Shallan has definitely aided me in seeing things in a different light. 

I just think with Brandon's history of trying to do better at representation of mental conditions and just diversity in general, I think Shallan being a character who finds stability within her neuro-divergence without being "fixed" is consistent with his normal approach. 

Edited by Calderis
4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

Man, I would hate it so much if Shallan doesn't reintegrate her personas. :lol:

Maybe I'm just narrow-minded and/or don't understand DID very well, but Shallan's situation DOES NOT strike me as healthy. Her situation definitely seems more stable than it was at the end of Oathbringer, but I would need a loooooot more convincing if I'm supposed to think this stability is a good long-term situation.

Mainly it was a combination of reading about real-life DID cases and how few of them actually attain re-integration, and how it's not considered a necessary goal in treating the trauma - that was the first paradigm shift for me. Then in addition to that, someone posted a video in the forums (can't remember which thread now, but I'm sure it was Shallan related) where a guy interviews a few folks with DID and it was really interesting and made the entire idea less threatening and scary.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

44 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

Man, I would hate it so much if Shallan doesn't reintegrate her personas. :lol:

Maybe I'm just narrow-minded and/or don't understand DID very well, but Shallan's situation DOES NOT strike me as healthy. Her situation definitely seems more stable than it was at the end of Oathbringer, but I would need a loooooot more convincing if I'm supposed to think this stability is a good long-term situation.

You should probably do some research on DID.  Here is a good source.  It is a bit long.  I recommend the first section.

https://www.beautyafterbruises.org/blog/didmyths

24 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

Then in addition to that, someone posted a video in the forums (can't remember which thread now, but I'm sure it was Shallan related) where a guy interviews a few folks with DID and it was really interesting and made the entire idea less threatening and scary.

This one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ek7JK6pattE&feature=youtu.be

Edited by Karger
4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

7 hours ago, Calderis said:

 

See above. Everyone's psychology is different. The idea that "different" is inherently unhealthy is extremely problematic. 

No where did I say different equals unhealthy.  I said her mental health was unlikely to be healthy as we have already seen.  If I went with what it seems you're saying then no mental disorder would be unhealthy and that is obviously untrue.  Maybe I am just misunderstanding you.

Edited by jamskinner
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

13 hours ago, jamskinner said:

No where did I say different equals unhealthy.  I said her mental health was unlikely to be healthy as we have already seen.  If I went with what it seems you're saying then no mental disorder would be unhealthy and that is obviously untrue.  Maybe I am just misunderstanding you.

As she was in OB? No it wasn't. How she seems in these opening chapters? I don't see why not. 

I am kind of saying what you seem to think I am and am also saying nothing of the sort. Let me explain. 

As to mental health in general, I think it is heavily stigmatized to a point that any abnormality is viewed harshly enough that many people are frightened to even admit that they may have an issue to themselves. And this leads to the idea of "different is bad" that I was talking about. 

It's not that "no mental condition is unhealthy." It's that any mental condition can be unhealthy but they do not have to be. There's a reason I brought up earlier in the thread, the idea of the DSM diagnosis criteria and in many many cases "significant impairment" being a requirement of diagnosis. You can have symptoms of schizophrenia, but be functional and unimpaired and not qualify for a diagnosis. You can have Sociopathic traits and be functional and not qualify for a diagnosis. You can be plural, and be functional, and healthy and happy. 

Any mental condition can be a problem. My complaint comes from the insistence that in order to be "healthy" the condition must be eliminated. Because in the world of human psychology that is exceedingly rare. 

 

Edited by Calderis
6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I think regardless the ultimate destination, the latest chapter released validates that all is not rosey currently and despite Shallan/Veil/Radiant's many comments that "things are better now" and "in balance", Shallan is still an unreliable narrator. I think a downward spiral is still occurring and very much on the table. But I totally respect and understand that others think differently. 

edit: just in case, what I am referring to is the point where Shallan panicked being unsure whether she killed Ialai or not. I think there is still potential for additional trauma occurring that could result in additional alters forming. Which as per the DSMV, is still possible.

Edited by Pathfinder
5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

In before she will realize it was her fourth personality who killed Ialai and she now has the touch of death.

Also she was Ialai's spy near Dalinar, she just didnt realize that.

Edited by Harbour
2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.