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Hoid the Drifter

Bloodsealer

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Can anyone theoretically be a bloodsealer? Do Bloodsealers live in the swamps as a general rule? Are all the swamp dwellers Bloodsealers?

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Like all Selish magics, you need a Connection to the homeland in order to be able to use it, in this case Dzhamar. Shai does note that Bloodsealers come from there and notes the ethnic group's distinct physical features as well as their fraught relationship with their neighbours.

No, not all Dzhamarians are Bloodsealers, just like not all MaiPonese are Forgers or all Arelish are Elantrian.

The Coppermind is a useful resource for these types of queries:

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Bloodsealing

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Can a Bloodsealer also be a normal Forger, or is that only a MaiPon thing?

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1 hour ago, Hoid the Drifter said:

Can a Bloodsealer also be a normal Forger, or is that only a MaiPon thing?

We don't know if you can naturally have access to two Investiture systems on Sel. 

Edited by Honorless
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So MaiPon forgery isn't necessarily an acquired trait.

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48 minutes ago, Hoid the Drifter said:

So MaiPon forgery isn't necessarily an acquired trait.

What do you mean by that? 

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Meaning, just learned, able to be used by anyone on Sel

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On 8/16/2020 at 9:24 AM, Hoid the Drifter said:

Meaning, just learned, able to be used by anyone on Sel

It is learned, you need to study a lot to be able to use it, but not anyone on Sel could use it, only people from MaiPon, and Forgery only works relatively close to MaiPon. That's a limitation of all Selish magics. 

Edited by Honorless
missing comma
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I believe she says anyone can be a forger as long as they are from the area and put in the effort to learn in. I wonder if there is a bit of a gradient where some magics are closer to devotion and require more "devotion to learning" while others are more of dominion and require you to be chosen into being a part of "a part of that dominion" like being chosen as an Elarntian. 

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On 8.12.2020 at 0:36 AM, teknopathetic said:

I believe she says anyone can be a forger as long as they are from the area and put in the effort to learn in. I wonder if there is a bit of a gradient where some magics are closer to devotion and require more "devotion to learning" while others are more of dominion and require you to be chosen into being a part of "a part of that dominion" like being chosen as an Elarntian. 

Other than Elantrians and Arelon, all magic systems of Sel seem to accessible to everybody with the right nationality. That is if you are from MaiPon, you can learn to be a Forger.

Now some system seem to be closer to Dominion and you deform your bones by human sacrifice, but still everybody from Fjordell can do so, potentially.

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2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Other than Elantrians and Arelon, all magic systems of Sel seem to accessible to everybody with the right nationality.

Well it only accepts Arelon and Serens home nation.

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5 hours ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Well it only accepts Arelon and Sarene home nation.

Yes, Arelon & Teod, but it also Duladel (that's when Galladon is from)

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1 hour ago, Honorless said:

Yes, Arelon & Teod, but it also Duladel (that's when Galladon is from)

All really close geographically.

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On 12/13/2020 at 0:36 PM, Ookla The Frustrated said:

All really close geographically.

Hmm... sort of, Teod is separated by a sea. Neither the Teoish nor the Dula are all that similar in culture to the Arelenes either, some shared ancestry perhaps? But the MaiPonese also have shared ancestry with the JinDo and they both have their own magic, maybe the Dula in particular might have had their own magic, with their religion having knowledge of the Dor. Do these lands not have magic of their own? Why are their people chosen by the Shaod?

Don't bother trying to answer these questions, these topics were not really handled by the book. We'll have to wait for the sequels. (Also, what's to the west of Arelon? Ugh)

Edited by Honorless
added who the MaiPonese had shared ancestry with
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I wonder how magic works for Selish people who have parents of different nationalities and/or live along disputed borders.

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it's probably based off of connection to the land with its original borders. for example, if the swamps were taken over by the JinDo, bloodsealers would still come from the swamps. new borders don't change Connection to original territory

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On 13.12.2020 at 10:33 AM, Honorless said:

Hmm... sort of, Teod is separated by a sea. Neither the Teoish nor the Dula are all that similar in culture to the Arelenes either, some shared ancestry perhaps?

Yes. we do know that Teod was settled by people from Arelon.

On 13.12.2020 at 10:33 AM, Honorless said:

But the MaiPonese also have shared ancestry and they have their own magic, maybe the Dula in particular might have had their own magic, with their religion having knowledge of the Dor. Do these lands not have magic of their own? Why are their people chosen by the Shaod?

It seems to be by true ethnicity. Your membership to a people matters, not place of birth. We do know that you can get ChayShan even if you were born to parents living in a foreign land.

On 14.12.2020 at 2:44 AM, Raven Wilder said:

I wonder how magic works for Selish people who have parents of different nationalities and/or live along disputed borders.

Borders probably do not matter. The Dor cares about nationality in an ethnic sense. States don't matter.

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But it does matter how physically close you are to the nation when you perform magic.

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7 hours ago, Raven Wilder said:

But it does matter how physically close you are to the nation when you perform magic.

except the farther away you are, the weaker it is.

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9 hours ago, Raven Wilder said:

But it does matter how physically close you are to the nation when you perform magic.

Technically we do not know that. We know that it is reflected in the symbols. But the bulk of a people is likely to be within the borders of the nation. I see no way we could tell those effects apart.

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I mean that the strength of your magic gets weaker that farther you get from your homeland; that's why Elantrians never conquered the world, or why you don't see Forgers or Bloodsealers in Arelon.

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On 12/15/2020 at 1:38 PM, Oltux72 said:

Yes. we do know that Teod was settled by people from Arelon.

It seems to be by true ethnicity. Your membership to a people matters, not place of birth. We do know that you can get ChayShan even if you were born to parents living in a foreign land.

Borders probably do not matter. The Dor cares about nationality in an ethnic sense. States don't matter.

Oh, it never occurred to me whether or not someone born away from their homeland could still be eligible to access its magic, so that's an interesting confirmation, do you mind posting the WoB?

Well, borders do matter though, the shape of the land is a symbol that the Selish magics use in their coding, we've got confirmation with AonDor and Forgery.

Hmm... I feel like I've seen this discussion happen before... in one of your threads?

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1 hour ago, Honorless said:

Oh, it never occurred to me whether or not someone born away from their homeland could still be eligible to access its magic, so that's an interesting confirmation, do you mind posting the WoB?

Baron Shuden demonstrates this in the very text. He is born in Arelon, yet good at ChayShan.

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

Well, borders do matter though, the shape of the land is a symbol that the Selish magics use in their coding, we've got confirmation with AonDor and Forgery.

Is that the reasons there is no Teo system? Too much focus on naval matters?

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

Hmm... I feel like I've seen this discussion happen before... in one of your threads?

Yes, I dimly remember something.

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On 12/16/2020 at 7:28 PM, Oltux72 said:

Baron Shuden demonstrates this in the very text. He is born in Arelon, yet good at ChayShan.

He was born in Arelon? I thought he was just staying in Arelon and though he ran caravans between JinDo and Arelon, he wasn't born in Arelon.

Edit: I found this in the annotations

Quote

And Elantrians have to come from the lands near Arelon. Teoish people can be taken, but only if they're in Arelon at the time. Genetically, then, the Teos and the Arelenes must be linked–and evidence seems to indicate that the Arelenes lived in the land first, and the Teos crossed the sea to colonize their peninsula.

That seems to support the ancestral genetics theory. It also says you need to be in Arelon in order for the Shaod to transform you into an AonDor user / Elantrian. We don't know the method of Initiation into the other Selish magics, might be from birth but more likely you have to be Initiated, like we've heard of the Dakhor monks, regardless it also supports your idea that it should be possible to access the magic of one's homeland without being born in one's homeland, only the Initiation needs to happen there and you need to have generic ties (globalisation in Sel is going to be interesting)

Edited by Honorless
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On 2020-12-16 at 6:58 AM, Oltux72 said:

Baron Shuden demonstrates this in the very text. He is born in Arelon, yet good at ChayShan.

Is that the reasons there is no Teo system? Too much focus on naval matters?

Yes, I dimly remember something.

It might matter what you consider yourself to be. Baron considered himself his old heritage and not his new one. I wonder if he would still be able to use ChayShan if he were raised not knowing he was from that region and instead thought he was from the Elantrian area. Or even if he just didn't care about his heritage and 100% wanting to just fit in with the new culture he was born into. 

Baron is likely not to renounce his heritage in just one generation, but his children? That might be more interesting. 

Edited by teknopathetic
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