212 posts in this topic

4 hours ago, LiquidBlue said:

Internal and external may simply refer to the target of the effect. An internal effect is targeted at the allomancer, an external effect affects the world around them.

Yeah. The only problem I see with this is bendalloy and cadmium Savantism where the speed bubble is anchored to the Allomancer, despite being an external metal. 

Edited by Innovation
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5 minutes ago, Innovation said:

Yeah. The only problem I see with this is bendalloy and cadmium Savantism where the speed bubble is anchored to the Allomancer, despite being an internal metal. 

Did you mean external? Also, that's not all that different from Iron/Steel. It still affects the world around them but just follows the Allomancer.

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6 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Did you mean external?

Yes. I’ll fix it. 

 

6 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Also, that's not all that different from Iron/Steel. It still affects the world around them but just follows the Allomancer.

You’re right. They are still considered external metals, but have some internal effects. 

Edited by Innovation
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And in another seeming confirmation of the cosmere-wide thematic consistence of the Allomantic metal effects, we have confirmation that Iron is the key to Attractors, and it sounds like they simply have not discovered the correct Steel alloy to make Repellers, though they know it would be theoretically possible.  

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But they do know about steel from chapter 10 so...

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16 minutes ago, Quantus said:

And in another seeming confirmation of the cosmere-wide thematic consistence of the Allomantic metal effects, we have confirmation that Iron is the key to Attractors, and it sounds like they simply have not discovered the correct Steel alloy to make Repellers, though they know it would be theoretically possible.  

I suspect there is something else, they know what steel is used in the polarity thing. What are the chances of having two different alloys of the same metal having an effect? I think the most plausible thing is that either the repeller is strangely not steel, or has some difficulty in the process that they were unable to discover.

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3 minutes ago, Raphaborn said:

I suspect there is something else, they know what steel is used in the polarity thing. What are the chances of having two different alloys of the same metal having an effect? I think the most plausible thing is that either the repeller is strangely not steel, or has some difficulty in the process that they were unable to discover.

Good point.  I would be extremely surprised if there were multiple Steel alloys with different effects, that would essentially be making new and separate metals, which I would assume to run counter to this whole thematic tie-in to the metallic arts.  I think your other suggestion more likely, that there is some additional trick required to make the spren Repel it's own associated Essence; perhaps it takes an additional Cognitive Metal in addition to Steel for the Physical effect, to reverse/Suppress the Spren's innate Essence association.

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So as of ch 11 we know that they know iron pulls (attractor fabrials), they know there should be a repeller fabrial, but presumably don't know how to go about it. If they don't know steel, they might indeed not know copper. So they haven't quite figured out the elemental metal-alloy pairing.

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It's weird that they wouldn't know steel because steel and iron are both referenced in the preceeding chapter. It would be even weirder to not know copper as unlike steel copper is a pure element. I'm wondering if specific gems are necessary and they just don't have the right gem and cut figured out for it. And I still think that cage shape plays a role too which might be a problem they are having. 

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As I stated in the chapter 11 thread, I think the epigraph reinforces my thought that iron and steel were a mistake in the chapter 10 epigraph.

The construct of the lecture was like this:

  • Metal 1 (pewter) can be used by itself
  • Metal 2 (tin) can be used by itself
  • Metal 3 and 4 (steel and iron) can be used together, "as well" (implying steel and iron were already talked about, which we did not see at least)

I think it should actually be

  • Metal 1 (pewter) can be used by itself
  • Metal 2 (tin) can be used by itself
  • Metal 1 and 2 can be used together as well

And now we have an epigraph saying they know Iron can be used in an attractor. If Iron and Steel can be used together, why wouldn't they try to use them apart? And *we* know steel is probably the repeller metal. I think it's more plausible we got an error in the text, then it is that there are different versions of steel being used in fabirals.

Edited version combining chapter 10 and 11 epigraphs, and changing steel and iron for pewter and tin.

Quote

A pewter cage will cause the spren of your fabrial to express its attribute in force—a flamespren, for example, will create heat. We call these augmenters. They tend to use Stormlight more quickly than other fabrials. A tin cage will cause the fabrial to diminish nearby attributes. A painrial, for example, can numb pain. Note that advanced designs of cages can use both pewter and tin as well, changing the fabrial’s polarity depending on which metals are pushed to touch the gemstone.

 

Edited by Govir
Added modified quote
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The explicitly do know steel.  When Taravangian showed Dalinar a half-shard in OB, the box on the back of the shield was made of steel.  

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I'm gonna be honest here @Govir your logic adds up, but I just don't think a mistake like that would have been up to this point. Yes, I remember the whole shardblade bleeding problem a few episodes back but this feels like too serious. So, even though I don't think it's as simple as there's a mistake on last weeks epigraph there is something fishy. All that steel and iron reverse polarity is a little bit weird, why can tin and pewter directly be swaped ( like @Govir sais it's actually suppouse to be) And then we get to the point where they don't know how to make repellers. Like @the_archduke just said they know for sure about steel, so I can't wrap my head around the fact that they haven't tried it yet. So, either steel isn't the right metal for a repeller ( would kind of break the up until now followed symmetry) or they need to do something else besides using steel that they haven't figured out... yet.

Bottom line, we still know too little about Fabrial Mechanichs to speak with certainty on the matter. Let's just hope future Navani POV help educate out ignorance!!

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24 minutes ago, Shardsplinter said:

why can tin and pewter directly be swaped

I'm trying to say there's nothing magical going on with the "changing polarities" bit. That statement is saying a fabrial can be made to both emit pain (pewter) and diminish pain (tin) using the same gemstone / powersource by mechanically switching which metal cage is touching the stone. We have seen this fabrial in OB. Going from emitting pain to diminishing pain is the changing of polarities.

I will die on this hill until the actual book comes out, or we get official word of either being correct. :D

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10 hours ago, the_archduke said:

The explicitly do know steel.  When Taravangian showed Dalinar a half-shard in OB, the box on the back of the shield was made of steel.  

Quote

@StanLemon

It's weird that they wouldn't know steel because steel and iron are both referenced in the preceeding chapter. It would be even weirder to not know copper as unlike steel copper is a pure element. I'm wondering if specific gems are necessary and they just don't have the right gem and cut figured out for it. And I still think that cage shape plays a role too which might be a problem they are having.

Just to be clear, I'm speaking in the context of fabrials not whether or not they're aware certain metals exist.

Also, as the Rhythm of War postscripts explicitly state: fabrial science methods are kept as state secrets, so the Veden might have discovered what steel does and/or how to integrate steel into fabrial tech, the Alethi probably do not. King Hanavanar got assassinated swiftly and then a civil war happened so it's also possible that the knowledge is lost even in Jah Keved now and would have to be rediscovered.

Edited by Honorless
missed a quote
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So does this mean that the half-shards are repellers of some sort? The coppermind says they're augmenters, but since the magic isn't fully understood they easily could have been miscategorized 

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10 minutes ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

So does this mean that the half-shards are repellers of some sort? The coppermind says they're augmenters, but since the magic isn't fully understood they easily could have been miscategorized 

They probably are augmenters, just that the metal making up the actual shield section is steel. My guess is that like with Allomancy, Fabrials need their metals to be at least close to Allomantic purity to work right. The problem with steel though is that "steel" is actually a very broad category of different alloy mixtures. 

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2 hours ago, the_archduke said:

The explicitly do know steel.  When Taravangian showed Dalinar a half-shard in OB, the box on the back of the shield was made of steel.  

But

  • Was that the cage or a housing?
  • If it was the cage, was it the only metal?
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1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

They probably are augmenters, just that the metal making up the actual shield section is steel. My guess is that like with Allomancy, Fabrials need their metals to be at least close to Allomantic purity to work right. The problem with steel though is that "steel" is actually a very broad category of different alloy mixtures. 

 

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

But

  • Was that the cage or a housing?
  • If it was the cage, was it the only metal?

 

"The so-called half-shards of Jah Keved are created with this type of fabrial attached to a sheet of metal, enhancing its durability." - Ars Arcanum.

So, in fact, it is probably a pewter cage.

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4 hours ago, StanLemon said:

They probably are augmenters, just that the metal making up the actual shield section is steel. My guess is that like with Allomancy, Fabrials need their metals to be at least close to Allomantic purity to work right. The problem with steel though is that "steel" is actually a very broad category of different alloy mixtures. 

Or maybe they need a specific wiring cage pattern, a specific gemstone, a specific type of Spren, or any number of combinations of these. 

Edited by Innovation
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Im on @StanLemon s side. Steel is very wide term and describe various alloys. Many of them cannot be even manufactured without proper technology - and we dont hear about blast fournaces. Have they even coal on Roshar? We dont hear about mines. They may have steel good enough for making weapons, but have they steel good enough for precise fabrials? Yeah, they can soulcast it - but they need to find proper alloy physicly first, they cannot just soulcast whatever they imagine.

Of course all what @Innovation mentioned matters, but Navani is very specific - they dont know proper metal.

 

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I can accept that they don't know the Allomantic alloy for steel, but if so, why would whatever they call steel be able to change polarity?

The only thing that seems to reconcile that discrepancy is that the Ch. 10 epigraph has some sort of typo.

Basically I read today's epigraph (11), got excited when I learned about iron and attractors, and then ended up extremely confused. :/

Edited by Cheat Commando
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12 hours ago, Govir said:

Edited version combining chapter 10 and 11 epigraphs, and changing steel and iron for pewter and tin.

Quote

A pewter cage will cause the spren of your fabrial to express its attribute in force—a flamespren, for example, will create heat. We call these augmenters. They tend to use Stormlight more quickly than other fabrials. A tin cage will cause the fabrial to diminish nearby attributes. A painrial, for example, can numb pain. Note that advanced designs of cages can use both pewter and tin as well, changing the fabrial’s polarity depending on which metals are pushed to touch the gemstone.

Reading this instead of the version in the preview chapters actually make a lot more sense, maybe Brandon was originally going to have some statement about iron and steel there, but changed it to something on how advanced designs can interchange the metals in contact with the gemstone to give more control over the fabrial's function

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The confusion about all this is kind of surprising to me. I just don't think it's intended to be so complex or mysterious.

Iron Pulls, and iron is needed to make attractors. Steel Pushes... steel is needed to make repellers. The whole point of these epigraphs is, in my opinion, just to indicate that there are significant parellels with the Metallic Arts. The point is "metal matter in the cosmere, and there are patterns to what different metals do." If Brandon wanted to say "but inconsistencies happen" then he could just tell us that. The exact metal needed to make repellers is totally inconsequential. I mean... I'm highly skeptical there's going to be some major plot twist revolving around the "surprise" that some other metal besides steel is needed for repellers. The point of "we haven't figured out what metal is needed" is just there for fans to say "OH OH I KNOW I KNOW!" Anything beyond that is mostly overthinking it, I think. :)

Not to disregard the arguments that, if it's steel then why haven't they figured it out. Totally valid question. I just think the answer is a mundane one.

I DO think the "reverse the polarities" usage of iron and steel implies they have the right alloy of steel for fabrials. I DON'T think they haven't figured out how to make repellers simply because they don't know the right type of steel to use.

16 hours ago, Innovation said:

Or maybe they need a specific wiring cage pattern, a specific gemstone, a specific type of Spren, or any number of combinations of these.

This is precisely what's going on, I think. These epigraphs are making fabrials sound simple and understandable, which is a lot of fun. But Navani's lecture is... not some PhD course. This is the basics, for non-artifabrains. Nobody is walking out of this lecture and designing the next revolutionary fabrial. This is an engineering professor giving a lecture about simple machines. (Here's a ramp. We use ramps to push things up and down easier. Here's a pulley. If you pull this end down, the other side goes up.) The actual artifabrians are serious engineers who spend their lives trying to figure these things out. It's not as simple as... stick any spren in a gem, wrap it up in metal, and push the big green button to see what it does. There's complexity here that's only being hinted at.

So... Just because they've figured out one application with steel doesn't mean it translates perfectly. They very well may have assumed steel would work, and then tried it out... and couldn't get it to work. Okay. So then lots of readers are thinking this implies it must not be steel. They tried steel, it didn't work.

But put yourself in-world. Consider all of the variables involved. Can you reach the conclusion that steel doesn't work so easily? Maybe you're using the wrong gemstone. Maybe the gem needs to be cut a certain way. Maybe you're using the wrong spren. Maybe the gage of your metal wires is off. Maybe the cage isn't touching the gem at the right points. Maybe the overall shape/pattern/geometry of the cage is wrong.

There are literally infinite possibilities. I mean, to be fair, there are presumably some patterns to how fabrials work, right? They didn't stumble upon all of their known fabrials by randomly toying with infinite possibilities and happening to get some that work. But that doesn't imply that the other extreme is true either. I think it's a big mistake to assume discovering a new fabrial is as easy as trying a dozen obvious options with a metal you haven't tried before.

And it seems logical to me that they wouldn't say "It's totally steel and we just haven't figured out how yet." Just because the polarity trick with iron/steel suggests a relationship between them, that's definitely not enough for them to assume some universal pattern from. I would think it might make them suspect steel. Perhaps. But when you've spent a few months trying different experiments with no success you don't know WHY you haven't had success. They have to assume it might not be steel just as much as they have to assume there's a thousand other variables that could be off.

Sorry for the rant. :lol:

I think the metal relationships we're seeing are REALLY cool... But I don't think we're going to walk out of Stormlight 10 knowing the nuts and bolts of how to design our own fabrials from scratch. When the Rosharan spaceships are running on fabrial computers, Brandon's not giving us schematics on fabrial microchips that are so detailed we could take them and, finding ourselves on Roshar, build our own. We're getting into a phase of the cosmere where we see consistent THEMES, that continue to give it a feeling of being hard magic. The usage of magic will be consistent and occaisionally predictable. Extrapolations will still feel satisfying. But I don't think we're going to be able to delve into the finest detail of the realmatics of every aspect surrounding fabrials. (same for mechanical applications of the Metallic Arts) There's going to be A LOT of handwaving like we're seeing here.

I think it's steel at work for repellers. The artifabrians just haven't figured out the details to make it work yet. What details? *handwavy* Details too complicated to explain to someone without a master's degree in fabrial magic. *handwavy*

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I'm inclined to agree. Rather than them not knowing about Steel, or Steel counter-intuitively breaking the pattern, to me it seems much more likely that they know perfectly well that Steel should be used for repellers, they just haven't quite managed to come up with a design that works properly yet, because it's not a tool Brandon wants to give them access to yet. 

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1 hour ago, Gilphon said:

because it's not a tool Brandon wants to give them access to yet. 

I've been wondering if there's a chance they might use repellers to make airships without all the complicated conjoined gem stuff. Like if you can just repel the entire planet from you... Not to derail the topic at hand. :D

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