Fabrial Metals

[StanLemon]

Just now, Innovation said:

We have a few correlations with Allomancy, I agree. However, all of the metals only affect Spren, even with external metals. You also have to stick wires of the metal into the gemstone-trapped Spren.

You seem to be missing the point here. Applying Investiture to Allomantic metals apply effects similar to Allomancy. That's why people are comparing it that way. It shows that there are consistent effects with metal.

Just now, Innovation said:

As a side note, steel and iron also are outliers. 

I don't really see that as an outlier. It wasn't the effect I was expecting but it doesn't seem to stray from what one could expect from Iron and Steel

[Innovation]

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

You seem to be missing the point here. Applying Investiture to Allomantic metals apply effects similar to Allomancy. That's why people are comparing it that way. It shows that there are consistent effects with metal.

Allomancy produces effects by burning a metal to affect the burner or another person or object. Fabrials produce effects by using metals to internally make a spren trapped inside a gemstone manifest external effects. You aren’t applying Investiture to the metals. The metals are changing the way the Spren produces effects. I’m not saying there aren’t some similarities, like metal type; I’m just saying that Fabrials shouldn’t be considered a fourth metallic art and that Allomancy is not as related to Fabrials as everyone is stating. 

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

I don't really see that as an outlier. It wasn't the effect I was expecting but it doesn't seem to stray from what one could expect from Iron and Steel

Steel and iron in Allomancy push and pull on external metals. Steel and iron in Fabrials change what metal is internally affecting the Spren. If you have both zinc and brass for a power up or power down, you will want a way to swap between those. 

Edited September 9, 2020 by Innovation

[spaidapig]

43 minutes ago, Innovation said:

Steel and iron in Allomancy push and pull on external metals. Steel and iron in Fabrials change what metal is internally affecting the Spren. If you have both zinc and brass for a power up or power down, you will want a way to swap between those. 

I'm not sure, that this is what navani meant by changing polarity. What sparks to my mind when I hear of polarity is magnets and electrostatic. We have seen fabrials that act kind of magnetic. Conjoiners and Reverser follow a pattern of attracted and repulsed movement. Thats why I think that Iron and Steel will be used in these kind of fabrials.

Another thing that is externally attracted could be water. Attractor fabrial will probably work with Iron as well.

I'm not denying that they could be used as a switch for other fabrials as well, but we should keep in mind, that they should have some external effect.

 

I wouldn't call it a Metallic Art. Simply because the Metallic Arts are related to Ruin and Preservation and I consider them a closed package.

For Fabrialtech you need so much more than just the metals. This simply doesnt fit like the others.

[Innovation]

8 minutes ago, spaidapig said:

I wouldn't call it a Metallic Art. Simply because the Metallic Arts are related to Ruin and Preservation and I consider them a closed package.

For Fabrialtech you need so much more than just the metals. This simply doesnt fit like the others.

Exactly. 

 

[StanLemon]

54 minutes ago, Innovation said:

Allomancy produces effects by burning a metal to affect the burner or another person or object. Fabrials produce effects by using metals to internally make a spren trapped inside a gemstone manifest external effects. You aren’t applying Investiture to the metals. The metals are changing the way the Spren produces effects. I’m not saying there aren’t some similarities, like metal type; I’m just saying that Fabrials shouldn’t be considered a fourth metallic art and that Allomancy is not as related to Fabrials as everyone is stating. 

Metals are being used to affect Investiture and produce specific effect. Sounds like a metalic art to me. Though with the inclusion of gems I wouldn't call it just a metalic art just as I wouldn't call it Surgebinding.

Quote

Steel and iron in Allomancy push and pull on external metals. Steel and iron in Fabrials change what metal is internally affecting the Spren. If you have both zinc and brass for a power up or power down, you will want a way to swap between those. 

I think you are too hung up on the 1:1 Allomancy. The Pewter section talked about it enhancing the spren's trait so it was already obvious that it wasn’t a perfect recreation of Allomancy but that it held parallels to it. Reversing the polarity speaks to me of turning a radiating effect into an absorbing effect and vise versa, not switch between metals. Paralleled with Allomantic Steel and Iron pushing things away versus Pulling things to you.

[Govir]

37 minutes ago, Innovation said:

Allomancy produces effects by burning a metal to affect the burner or another person or object.

I don't think this is a true statement. I think that in Allomancy, the metals are like keys or patterns. An Allomancer has the ability to pass Investiture (via Preservation) through the metals and therefore the metal works more like a conducting wire shaping the Investiture into the effect. (This next statement is my theorizing) The reason the metals burn away is because of the amount of Investiture passing through them.

Elantris spoiler

Spoiler

This is similar to how AonDor works, shapes that Investiture passes through to get a desired effect.

This theory allows Fabrials to do the same, pass Investiture (via Stormlight) through metal to get an effect. The metal determines the broad classification of Fabrial, the Gemstone/spren determine tweaks (e.g. a heating Fabrial more generally is an augmenter, but because a Flamespren is used it emits heat).

Metals we know from the epigraphs:

• Zinc - express more strongly (Rioting)
• Brass - express less strongly (Soothing)
• Bronze - detects things, heliodor is used to detect people (Seeking)
• Pewter - "express attribute in force", this always seemed to me to mean it manifests the attribute. i.e. a trapped flamespren does not produce heat. But add a pewter cage and heat is produced.
• Tin - "diminish nearby attributes", this makes sense as the opposite of pewter.

Metals we don't know from the epigraphs (as of Chapter 10) , and as such are speculation on my part. (sticking with the "base" 8)

• Steel - "push" on an attribute. Could be used in Repellor fabrials.
• Iron - "pull" on an attribute. Could be used in Attractor fabrials.
• Copper - hides things. Could be used to hide from an Alerter fabrial.

[Trutharchivist]

I was just about to say something similar to what Govir said... but never mind that. I just wanted to say that fabrials resemble allomancy more than feruchemy and hemalurgy resemble it. This actually seems a little weird to me.

[spaidapig]

6 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Metals are being used to affect Investiture and produce specific effect. Sounds like a metalic art to me. Though with the inclusion of gems I wouldn't call it just a metalic art just as I wouldn't call it Surgebinding.

I would call it a metallic art. But not one of the Metallic Arts.

5 minutes ago, Govir said:

This theory allows Fabrials to do the same, pass Investiture (via Stormlight) through metal to get an effect. The metal determines the broad classification of Fabrial, the Gemstone/spren determine tweaks (e.g. a heating Fabrial more generally is an augmenter, but because a Flamespren is used it emits heat).

Metals we know from the epigraphs:

• Zinc - express more strongly (Rioting)
• Brass - express less strongly (Soothing)
• Bronze - detects things, heliodor is used to detect people (Seeking)
• Pewter - "express attribute in force", this always seemed to me to mean it manifests the attribute. i.e. a trapped flamespren does not produce heat. But add a pewter cage and heat is produced.
• Tin - "diminish nearby attributes", this makes sense as the opposite of pewter.

Metals we don't know from the epigraphs (as of Chapter 10) , and as such are speculation on my part. (sticking with the "base" 8)

• Steel - "push" on an attribute. Could be used in Repellor fabrials.
• Iron - "pull" on an attribute. Could be used in Attractor fabrials.
• Copper - hides things. Could be used to hide from an Alerter fabrial.

This is my theory as well.

In allomancy the allomancer works as the mind, who gives the, I like to call it flavored, Investiture its final shape and directing.

In Fabrials this place is filled by the Gem and the captured Spren.

[Innovation]

44 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Reversing the polarity speaks to me of turning a radiating effect into an absorbing effect and vise versa, not switch between metals. Paralleled with Allomantic Steel and Iron pushing things away versus Pulling things to you.

If you have both zinc and brass inside a gemstone, how to you choose which one is affecting the Spren? Swapping between opposing metals is what I think steel and iron are for. I agree that attracting and repulsing could be what Navani means. Any number of theories could be possible. 

Edited September 9, 2020 by Innovation

[Govir]

7 minutes ago, Innovation said:

If you have both zinc and brass inside a gemstone, how to you choose which one is affecting the Spren? Swapping between opposing metals is what I think steel and iron are for. I agree that attracting and repulsing could be what Navani means. Any number of theories could be possible. 

I would think it's a mechanical process of actually moving which metal is touching the sphere. But I agree Navani's wording on Steel and Iron are very vague. Almost like she should have been talking about Steel and Iron in fabrials, then mention they can be used in the same one. As it is now, it sounds like Steel and Iron are what changes the polarity. But I think the changing of the polarity happens because of the moving of metal. Or more likely, like Brandon meant to use Pewter and Tin in this last explanation which then calls back to an Augmenter / Deminisher we've already seen (the one she used in OB).

I forget. How finalized are these previews? Is it possible those metals are a typo?

[Innovation]

2 minutes ago, Govir said:

I forget. How finalized are these previews? Is it possible those metals are a typo?

Not entirely final, I think. There have been a few typos and mistakes (like Leshwi bleeding from a Shardblade cut), so it could be changed in the final version. 

Edited September 9, 2020 by Innovation

[Honorless]

On 8/11/2020 at 10:55 PM, Gilphon said:

we've seen Aluminium used to make Fabrials do weird things.

I don't recall any instances of aluminium being used in fabrials

[Gilphon]

Just now, Honorless said:

I don't recall any instances of aluminium being used in fabrials

Most directly, Navani mentioned using it in the construction of The Fourth Bridge. Some technobabble about isolating axial motion, if I recall correctly.

Less directly, in OB we saw that Soulcasting in an aluminium lined-room makes it undetectable from the outside. 

[Honorless]

7 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

Most directly, Navani mentioned using it in the construction of The Fourth Bridge. Some technobabble about isolating axial motion, if I recall correctly

Ah, I forgot about that one and I thought you meant like a driving fabrial component like the cages rather than... what was the word for the opposite of conductor? Err, a fabrial directly making use of aluminium's properties to make Investiture inert stuff rather than just taking advantage of aluminium not being an Investiture conducting material.

I was trying to remember if those half-Shard shield thingys from Jah Keved used aluminium (because of that aluminium could block the magical cutting of the Shardblades WoB) or the new anti-Radiancy fabrial & spears that the Fused are carrying, though I'm pretty sure aluminium isn't widely known on Roshar, only mentioned by Taravangian & Hoid.

I didn't get anything regarding how Navani's flying the bridge at all and haven't visited any threads discussing it, my eyes just glazed over those.

Axial? Aren't Cohesion & Tension called the Surges of soft and something axial interconnection?

[Gilphon]

3 minutes ago, Honorless said:

I didn't get anything regarding how Navani's flying the bridge at all and haven't visited any threads discussing it, my eyes just glazed over those.

Axial? Aren't Cohesion & Tension called the Surges of soft and something axial interconnection?

That's the connection I was making in my head when I wrote that, but I found the quote and it turns out I was misremembering: 

Quote

The real advancement had come as they’d learned to use aluminum to isolate motion along a plane, and even change the vectors of force. The end result was chulls that could pull for a while, then be turned around—the gemstones temporarily disjoined—to march back the other direction, as all the while the airship continued in a straight line.

Nothing about Axial there; that was just my mind trying to make a connection where none exists. The purpose of aluminium, it seems, is that it allows The Fourth Bridge and the Chulls at the Shattered Plains to move in opposite directions.

[Honorless]

19 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

That's the connection I was making in my head when I wrote that, but I found the quote and it turns out I was misremembering: 

Nothing about Axial there; that was just my mind trying to make a connection where none exists. The purpose of aluminium, it seems, is that it allows The Fourth Bridge and the Chulls at the Shattered Plains to move in opposite directions.

If I recall correctly, that's the Cosmere term for atoms, so I started thinking fabrials use quantum entanglement?!

Also, the word was "insulator", thanks Google

and the other Surge is called the strong axial interconnection: sounds like Strong Nuclear Force but doesn't seem like the same thing

Edited September 10, 2020 by Honorless

[spaidapig]

What I think is mostly meant by this whole tech thing is.

You have at least two sets of conjoined fabrials, like the archer platform in WoR. One to pull the ship into the air (vertical movement). And one to move it around (horizontal movement). The thing with conjoiners is, that if you move one (object A), the other one (object B ) moves as well, regardless of what one you move. With Aluminum they were able to block the transfer of hroizontal movement between the ship "B" and the vertical Fabrial "A".

I don't want this to become to technical, but just like spanreeds do not transfer their movement in OB in the Aluminumcoated room, they just blocked a part of this movement and not all of it.

 

 

Quote

If I recall correctly, that's the Cosmere term for atoms, so I started thinking fabrials use quantum entanglement?!

Also, the word was "insulator", thanks Google

and the other Surge is called the strong axial interconnection: sounds like Strong Nuclear Force but doesn't seem like the same thing

 

Yes an Axi is an atom. Or the cosmer equivalent of it. I don't think they have the insights that we now have. But a more or less accurate system that works for their purpose

Edited September 10, 2020 by spaidapig

[Honorless]

9 minutes ago, spaidapig said:

Yes an Axi is an atom. Or the cosmer equivalent of it. I don't think they have the insights that we now have. But a more or less accurate system that works for their purpose.

No double-posting, remember? Just click edit, then copy-paste it to your previous post and hide this one

Thanks for the clarifications! I'll reread that chapter when the book comes out and look up axi on the Coppermind and Arcanum tomorrow, gn

Edited September 10, 2020 by Honorless

[Govir]

22 minutes ago, Honorless said:

No double-posting, remember? Just click edit, then copy-paste it to your previous post and hide this one

Thanks for the clarifications! I'll reread that chapter when the book comes out and look up axi on the Coppermind and Arcanum tomorrow, gn

To follow up on this, my understanding of how the flying machine works is that there is at least a Conjoiner in use (and a Reverser if they want to be efficient).

In the simple scenario, a Conjoiner is used and moved around on the Shattered Plains. When they run out of plain, they enclose it in Aluminum (which blocks the connection) and run it back to the other side of the plain. This means there's a period of time were the connection is broken.

In my more efficient scenario, there is a Conjoiner and a Reverser such that when they reach the end of the plain, the enclose the Conjoiner and expose the Reverser, allowing moving back to the other side of the plain to also use that movement for actual vehicular movement.

[LiquidBlue]

So the effect of tin in fabrial construction strengthens the Scadrian understanding of Allomancy. Pushing and Pulling aren't just metaphors or handy labels, at some level it really is a good model of how the magic works.

For example in tin allomancy, increasing the senses could be seen not so much an enhancement of the sensory organs themselves, but that the tin allomancy is literally pulling additional information from the environment and presenting it to the allomancer. This harmonizes quite well with the fabrial function of tin. Further it would explain one crucial difference between allomantic tin and feruchemical tin. Allomantic tin is able to pierce the mists while feruchemical tin cannot.

Edited September 10, 2020 by LiquidBlue

[Govir]

2 hours ago, LiquidBlue said:

So the effect of tin in fabrial construction strengthens the Scadrian understanding of Allomancy. Pushing and Pulling aren't just metaphors or handy labels, at some level it really is a good model of how the magic works.

For example in tin allomancy, increasing the senses could be seen not so much an enhancement of the sensory organs themselves, but that the tin allomancy is literally pulling additional information from the environment and presenting it to the allomancer. This harmonizes quite well with the fabrial function of tin. Further it would explain one crucial difference between allomantic tin and feruchemical tin. Allomantic tin is able to pierce the mists while feruchemical tin cannot.

Tin is considered an Internal Pulling metal though, so in theory it should be doing something internal. But Tin and Pewter have always been weird to me. I really need to go find that in book explanation of their weirdness again...

[Karger]

5 hours ago, Honorless said:

what was the word for the opposite of conductor?

A resistor. 

I think a better understanding of the metals might be to think in terms of pushing and pulling yes.  Pushing metals move something "downward" for example from the spiritual and cognitive to the physical.  Pulling metals pull upward for example from the physical to the spiritual or cognitive.

Edited September 11, 2020 by Karger

[Trutharchivist]

7 hours ago, Karger said:

I think a better understanding of the metals might be to think in terms of pushing and pulling yes.  Pushing metals move something "downward" for example from the spiritual and cognitive to the physical.  Pulling metals pull upward for example from the physical to the spiritual or cognitive.

Can you give an example?

[Karger]

8 hours ago, Trutharchivist said:

Can you give an example?

Pewter, a pulling metal, pulls investiture down into the PR from SR making you stronger.   Tin, a pulling metal, pulls information from the physical realm to the cognitive.

[LiquidBlue]

16 hours ago, Govir said:

Tin is considered an Internal Pulling metal though, so in theory it should be doing something internal. But Tin and Pewter have always been weird to me. I really need to go find that in book explanation of their weirdness again...

Internal and external may simply refer to the target of the effect. An internal effect is targeted at the allomancer, an external effect affects the world around them.

It might be interesting to ask Brandon if allomantic pewter has some subtle effects besides just increased strength. If the metal is enhancing the effect of the allomancer on the world, does this enhancement go beyond strength. For example, can they speak more loudly? Is their body order increased? Can they fart more powerfully?

Edited September 11, 2020 by LiquidBlue
Additional thoughts about pewter