Fabrial Metals

[Karger]

15 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

Although I will say that pulling lightning from a cloud without a storm strikes me as something that would require the Fabrial to have a longer range than your average attractor seems to. 

It was a thought experiment.  However lets keep going.  If it is out of range and the spren is trying to attract then what happens?  Does the fabrail not consume stormlight?  I have a hard time believing that.  The way Kaladin describes it stormlight "wants" to be used.  Does it "try" to pull only to fail?  What does that trying consist of?

[Gilphon]

47 minutes ago, Karger said:

It was a thought experiment.  However lets keep going.  If it is out of range and the spren is trying to attract then what happens?  Does the fabrail not consume stormlight?  I have a hard time believing that.  The way Kaladin describes it stormlight "wants" to be used.  Does it "try" to pull only to fail?  What does that trying consist of?

I don't have my books handy at the moment, so I'll have to ask you to remind me: Did Shallan's unsuccessful attempt at Soulcasting Stick still consume Stormlight? Because I think that gives us our answer either way; either it's possible for Stormlight to be spent on something that has no visible effect, or a failed 'pull' doesn't take stormlight.

My intuition says that it would be quite similar to what happens if a Lurcher burns Steel without there being any metal around: The Stormlight would consumed (albeit at a slower rate), but nothing would happen.

[Karger]

2 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

I don't have my books handy at the moment, so I'll have to ask you to remind me: Did Shallan's unsuccessful attempt at Soulcasting Stick still consume Stormlight? Because I think that gives us our answer either way; either it's possible for Stormlight to be spent on something that has no visible effect, or a failed 'pull' doesn't take stormlight.

Shallan was still opening her perpendicularity so stormlight was used then.  She could not figure out how to give it to stick so nothing happened there.

3 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

My intuition says that it would be quite similar to what happens if a Lurcher burns Steel without there being any metal around: The Stormlight would consumed (albeit at a slower rate), but nothing would happen.

The lurcher is still outputting force though.  It is like throwing a punch at the air.  Nothing is absorbing it but a seeker can still pick up on the investiture.  Something noticeable is happening.

[Gilphon]

I mean, sure, but if you're not a Seeker you wouldn't notice anything happening. Which is what I feel like would happen with our hypothetical attractor. 

[+Bzhydack]

On 4.09.2020 at 11:00 PM, Karger said:

Presumably the reed was made of metal.

Dont think so. Is clearly stated in text that spanreeds looks like standard writing reeds, with attached gem on side. In pre-industrial world, metal writing devices sometimes apear, but they were not very popular, much more were popular quills or, nomen-omen, reeds. First mass-produced metal pens in our world apear in 19th century! Before that, metal pens were simply too expensive. Birds arent very popular on Roshar, so Rosharans probably use Reeds - we also saw Reeds used to other purposes.

So if spanreed is metal, will not be describe as "looking as normal writing reed" but "looking as a fancy metal writing reed"

Is also other thing.

During writing with spanreed writer has to hold double mass of pen - on his side and on another side. So is very clear that pen needs to be as light as possible - should be even lighter than "standard" pen.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Bzhydack

[Karger]

8 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

So if spanreed is metal, will not be describe as "looking as normal writing reed" but "looking as a fancy metal writing reed"

Why?  Given how common spanreeds are it makes sense that they would become standard writing utensils.  Using a turned of spanreed to write normal notes make sense.

[+Bzhydack]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

Why?  Given how common spanreeds are it makes sense that they would become standard writing utensils.  Using a turned of spanreed to write normal notes make sense.

But is still not THAT popular. This still is new invention, and this is in text. We have little bit shifted view, because Dalinar as highprince and marshal, has many of them, but this is not norm. For example, Shallan is surprised than Tyn has one, and Scar and Drehy are described as "lucky" because they met merchant with one.  Is like telegraph in late 18th century. Popular and usefull, but its not like everyone has one.

And you miss the point. Im not talking how popular spanreeds are, im talking that they look like "normal writing reeds" - and this mean, they are not made from metal.

[Karger]

26 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

And you miss the point. Im not talking how popular spanreeds are, im talking that they look like "normal writing reeds" - and this mean, they are not made from metal.

Or just that they are the same approximate size and shape meaning a casual observer won't be able to tell the difference.

27 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

norm. For example, Shallan is surprised than Tyn has one, and Scar and Drehy are described as "lucky" because they met merchant with one.  Is like telegraph in late 18th century. Popular and usefull, but its not like everyone has one.

Not everyone can write either.  In fact most people can't.  The ones that can seem to be have access to spanreeds when needed.

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

Quote

A tin cage will cause the fabrial to diminish nearby attributes. A painrial, for example, can numb pain. Note that advanced designs of cages can use both steel and iron as well, changing the fabrial’s polarity depending on which metals are pushed to touch the gemstone.

—Lecture on fabrial mechanics presented by Navani Kholin to the coalition of monarchs, Urithiru, Jesevan, 1175

Interesting, the theories about tin were right

[Karger]

2 hours ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

Interesting, the theories about tin were right

Seems so.  Now we just have to figure out why.

[Trutharchivist]

I didn't quite understand the thing about steel and iron, and I think it's important. what does "the fabrial's polarity" means?

[+Bzhydack]

12 minutes ago, Trutharchivist said:

I didn't quite understand the thing about steel and iron, and I think it's important. what does "the fabrial's polarity" means?

Its possible that, like with Allomantic Soothing and Rioting is possible to achieve similar effects with opposite actions. For example, you can have heater normaly with pewter cage set by deafult to emit heat, but with addition of steel and iron elements it can be set to absorb heat (with the same strengh).

So it would work as dimnisher, but not directly, but more like anti-Augmenter.

35 minutes ago, Karger said:

Seems so.  Now we just have to figure out why.

Spook thoughts in Hero of Ages coms to mind.

[Gilphon]

Well. I have some crow to eat, on the Tin front. Unless we can figure out a way to justify claiming that 'enhancing your senses' and 'diminishing expressions of a spren's attributes' are the same effect, I'm gonna have to admit that it's a fourth metallic art, not an application of Allomancy. 

Though I think it bares mentioning that I still stand by Iron and Steel making Attractors and Repulsers. I feel like that's a thing they can do in addition to this 'reversing the polarity' techno-babble. 

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

30 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

I'm gonna have to admit that it's a fourth metallic art, not an application of Allomancy.

I think it's more that metals, in the cosmere, have some sort of universal investiture-related properties that both the Metallic Arts and fabrials tap into (which also really makes me wonder what the connection is between the metals' properties across Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemallurgy). I bet there's even some weirdness with Nalthian and Selish magic, though maybe not anything relevant enough to come up in the books, probably just something very minor. We know aluminum is consistently weird though. I suppose you could consider any magic like Fabrials that interacts with metals to be a metallic art but that's probably not how I'd categorize it personally. That's just a semantics issue though.

However if this is true it really makes me wonder about silver. It clearly has some investiture property like we saw on Threnody, but it explicitly has no use in the Metallic Arts. Can you use it for fabrials though? Why is it different on Threnody? 

[Innovation]

32 minutes ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

I think it's more that metals, in the cosmere, have some sort of universal investiture-related properties that both the Metallic Arts and fabrials tap into (which also really makes me wonder what the connection is between the metals' properties across Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemallurgy). I bet there's even some weirdness with Nalthian and Selish magic, though maybe not anything relevant enough to come up in the books, probably just something very minor. We know aluminum is consistently weird though. I suppose you could consider any magic like Fabrials that interacts with metals to be a metallic art but that's probably not how I'd categorize it personally. That's just a semantics issue though.

However if this is true it really makes me wonder about silver. It clearly has some investiture property like we saw on Threnody, but it explicitly has no use in the Metallic Arts. Can you use it for fabrials though? Why is it different on Threnody? 

I really don’t think that Fabrials are tapping into any source of power. The metals just regulate the effect. The Spren imprisioned in the gemstone provides the power, and the metals modify it. Just like how Preservation provides the power for Allomancy, and the metal type regulates what kind of power comes out. 

[+Oltux72]

2 hours ago, Karger said:

Seems so.  Now we just have to figure out why.

Actually, it looks like allomancy is the wierd art, not fabrials. The pushing material strengthens, the pulling material weakens, as makes perfect sense. If you consider the human body as the equivalent of the spren in allomancy, it does make sense for pewter to make the user stronger in allomancy.

Allomantic tin is the strange sustance that needs to be explained. Our having learned so much about allomancy before learning about fabrials is clouding our thought.

[Gilphon]

Except that in Feruchemy and Hemalurgy, Tin acts pretty similarly to how it does in Allomancy. Fabrial Tin is the odd man out here. That it's the reverse of Pewter does means that's not completely out of left field, but it implies that fabrial metals are following their own set of rules distinct from those of the other metallic arts. Unless there's something I'm missing.

[Innovation]

2 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

it implies that fabrial metals are following their own set of rules distinct from those of the other metallic arts.

Exactly. There may be some similarities, but many metals may not have correlations with Allomancy. 

[LightReader]

2 hours ago, Gilphon said:

Though I think it bares mentioning that I still stand by Iron and Steel making Attractors and Repulsers. I feel like that's a thing they can do in addition to this 'reversing the polarity' techno-babble. 

Actually, steel and iron making attractors and repulsers might be exactly what “reversing polarity” means. In magnets, the polarity is what determines which sides repulse vs which sides attract (taking two North/South polarized magnets, Putting the two north sides together or two south sides together they will repel each other, but putting a north and a south together they will attract).  Polarity is about the internal alignment of a thing. It could also be used in determining how conjoined fabrials work, whether they move the same or opposite directions. I imagine that manipulating the polarities could be used to achieve a number of different effects depending on what sort of fabrial we’re working with. 

[Raphaborn]

It is interesting to note that in Alomancy, tin makes the senses more sensitive and vulnerable. Is it possible, then, that he is actually diminishing something? And does this decrease have the effect of making the senses better?
Or maybe we understand the effect of Diminisher in the wrong way. It is absorbing something external to Spren but related to its nature. Humans do that too, but using their senses. In this case, Tin makes humans more capable of absorbing sound, image, smells, etc.

[Dreamwa1ker]

Quote

A tin cage will cause the fabrial to diminish nearby attributes. A painrial, for example, can numb pain. Note that advanced designs of cages can use both steel and iron as well, changing the fabrial’s polarity depending on which metals are pushed to touch the gemstone.

—Lecture on fabrial mechanics presented by Navani Kholin to the coalition of monarchs, Urithiru, Jesevan, 1175

Changing the polarity of the fabrial eh? Anyone else think transistors? STORMLIGHT COMPUTERS!!!   *squee* Space era Cosmere will be a thing of beauty.

Edited September 8, 2020 by Dreamwa1ker

[Proletariat]

14 hours ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

I think it's more that metals, in the cosmere, have some sort of universal investiture-related properties that both the Metallic Arts and fabrials tap into (which also really makes me wonder what the connection is between the metals' properties across Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemallurgy). I bet there's even some weirdness with Nalthian and Selish magic, though maybe not anything relevant enough to come up in the books, probably just something very minor. We know aluminum is consistently weird though. I suppose you could consider any magic like Fabrials that interacts with metals to be a metallic art but that's probably not how I'd categorize it personally. That's just a semantics issue though.

However if this is true it really makes me wonder about silver. It clearly has some investiture property like we saw on Threnody, but it explicitly has no use in the Metallic Arts. Can you use it for fabrials though? Why is it different on Threnody? 

I think fabrials probably could be called the 4th Metallic Art at this point. But I guess it depends on where you think being a Metallic Art ends, and being a way of using investiture that is entirely governed by the properties of the same set of metals begins. I'm not sure what the difference is at this point given Hemalurgy is a metallic art that's not reliant on Preservation's investiture, and they all use metals as keys for manipulating investiture sources.

I suspect that the nature of awakened metal on Nalthis is probably influenced based on which of the 16 metals are used as well. Is that maybe one reason - beyond commands -why Nightblood and Vivenna's sword are different?

I also wonder if using Awakening or Feruchemy on fabrial metal would be influential. Could you create conscious metal in the fabrial that would self-govern the way these primitive surges are manipulated?

[Innovation]

Fabrials just aren’t related to Allomancy as much as everyone thinks. Some of the metals have similar effects, but other than that it is not related. In Allomancy, a misting or mistborn burns a metal, if they are able to. Then, that metal produces effects by using Preservation’s power. For Fabrials, you need a Spren captured in a gemstone. Then you stick metal wires inside the gemstone to make to Spren manifest effects, with different metals modifying and changing the amount, range, and polarization of the power produced. To power this, you need some Stormlight as well. 

[StanLemon]

49 minutes ago, Innovation said:

Fabrials just aren’t related to Allomancy as much as everyone thinks. Some of the metals have similar effects, but other than that it is not related. In Allomancy, a misting or mistborn burns a metal, if they are able to. Then, that metal produces effects by using Preservation’s power. For Fabrials, you need a Spren captured in a gemstone. Then you stick metal wires inside the gemstone to make to Spren manifest effects, with different metals modifying and changing the amount, range, and polarization of the power produced. To power this, you need some Stormlight as well. 

It's the same metals as in Allomancy and they follow the pushing/pulling mechanic. Additionally, until the latest chapter their effects on spren were pretty similar to the Allomantic effects. That's a lot of relation to Allomancy. In fact Tin is the only real outlier so far and even that still follows the push/pull aspect

[Innovation]

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

It's the same metals as in Allomancy and they follow the pushing/pulling mechanic. Additionally, until the latest chapter their effects on spren were pretty similar to the Allomantic effects. That's a lot of relation to Allomancy. In fact Tin is the only real outlier so far and even that still follows the push/pull aspect

We have a few correlations with Allomancy, I agree. However, all of the metals only affect Spren, even with external metals. You also have to stick wires of the metal into the gemstone-trapped Spren to even produce an effect  

As a side note, steel and iron are outliers as well.

Edited September 9, 2020 by Innovation