Fabrial Metals

[+Bzhydack]

4 hours ago, Karger said:

Note the word interferes.  Why not say resist?  They say it for soulcasting but not for other powers.  Perhaps they did something to an existing metal?  A treatment process that expanded its identity and innate investiture?

Because not every power Has direct effect on metal?

Take Lightweaving as example. How metal can "resist" Lightweaving? You can create hologram around it. BUT aluminium can have other power-limiting effect.

Also, Progression. We know that Aluminium stops Investiture based healing. This also isn't "resisting", but "interfering".

[Karger]

6 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Take Lightweaving as example. How metal can "resist" Lightweaving? You can create hologram around it. BUT aluminium can have other power-limiting effect.

Also, Progression. We know that Aluminium stops Investiture based healing. This also isn't "resisting", but "interfering".

Plausible.

[Gilphon]

Brandon weighted in on this issue on reddit: 

Quote

Oversleep42

I got a question about this and last week's epigraph.

The metals Fused use. How come nobody knows, guesses or even suspects that aluminium and its alloys are Investiture resistant? They know you can Soulcast something into aluminium, so they should also know it's impossible to Soulcast aluminium into something else.

And once they know about metal that cannot be Soulcast, they start experimenting with fabrials - they used that in construction of Fourth Bridge - and then the logical step is to test it against Shardblades.Probably experimenting with alloys of aluminium, too.

Yet the metal Fused use to make weapons resistant to Shardweapons is a mystery to them?

I feel like I'm missing something here.

Brandon Sanderson

They're getting to answers here. Problem is, metallurgy just isn't a big science on Roshar. I feel it's one of those things that is more easy to see externally than internally--and do remember that there are things like god metals (Shardblades, for example) that also behave strangely around investiture. They have far more experience with those than aluminum, which is more of a little historical oddity to them than a big revolutionary part of science. Add to that the fact that some of the metals the fused are using aren't aluminum, and...well, I don't think it's as obvious a leap as you're making it out to be.

ImBuGs

So the Fused's fabrials are not 100% aluminum based? Or they are and they are struggling to reach that conclusion?

Brandon Sanderson

I think what you're asking will be answered in the book, so I'll RAFO for now.

He stops short of actually confirming whether or not it's aluminium, but says that it's absolutely possibly for it to simply not have occurred to them that they're looking at aluminium.   Which, y'know, knocks out the only argument I've seen against it being aluminium. But, perhaps more importantly, he says that issue will be clarified later in the book.

[Pagerunner]

The sketchbook pages have been translated, and I think we have a new fabrial metal from the soul-stealing dagger: (top is Navani notes, bottom is Raboniel)

Quote

The ruby is housed in a metal other than raysium, silver maybe?
I can confirm the metal is not raysium, but a silver-
nickel alloy and does not affect the dagger's function.

The silver-nickel alloy has to be significant. Why use a particular alloy if there was no reason?

What is the dagger's function? To guide Investiture, to rip out a soul and send it somewhere else. That is all accomplished through the raysium; it's what's responsible for the "dagger's function." The silver-nickel alloy (no specific products jump out at me), if it has a function, would be something ancillary.

So, what might a silver alloy do in fabrial science? The trivial answer is that it would do the opposite of purse silver. Which is not all that trivial, truth be told, because we've seen how silver interacts with Investiture. Silver repels Shades and reverses their whithering; it is bad for them, good for people. And the Threnodite chain (in the chapter 64 epigraph, almost certainly the one seen in Celebrant) is able to anchor someone through Cognitive anomalies. (Whatever those are.) This might be a positive effect on the being or a negative effect on the Cognitive anomaly; I can see it either way, depending on if the chain is true silver or a silver-nickel alloy, as well, or if there is also Threnody-specific Investiture associated with it in addition to silver's natural realmatic properties.

So, what does this have to do with the soul stealing knife? These were created to trap Heralds. But Jezrien didn't persist in the knife; once he was removed from the Oathpact, he faded away. There was nothing to stabilize him, according to Kalak. I think this silver-nickel alloy is a late modification to the knives to try to retain the soul of the Herald after it has been taken. Whereas silver in the cage would drive the Herald's soul away, the alloy does the opposite and keeps them there. (Or is supposed to help with that, at least.)

So I propose that silver repels Cognitive entities, and that the silver-nickel alloy attracts them.

(I promise I won't talk about silver's allomantic symbol as an external metal, or whether an Allomancer would only be able to burn it in the Cognitive Realm, which is why it has been believed to be Allomantically inert.)

[+asmodeus]

41 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

The sketchbook pages have been translated, and I think we have a new fabrial metal from the soul-stealing dagger: (top is Navani notes, bottom is Raboniel)

The silver-nickel alloy has to be significant. Why use a particular alloy if there was no reason?

What is the dagger's function? To guide Investiture, to rip out a soul and send it somewhere else. That is all accomplished through the raysium; it's what's responsible for the "dagger's function." The silver-nickel alloy (no specific products jump out at me), if it has a function, would be something ancillary.

So, what might a silver alloy do in fabrial science? The trivial answer is that it would do the opposite of purse silver. Which is not all that trivial, truth be told, because we've seen how silver interacts with Investiture. Silver repels Shades and reverses their whithering; it is bad for them, good for people. And the Threnodite chain (in the chapter 64 epigraph, almost certainly the one seen in Celebrant) is able to anchor someone through Cognitive anomalies. (Whatever those are.) This might be a positive effect on the being or a negative effect on the Cognitive anomaly; I can see it either way, depending on if the chain is true silver or a silver-nickel alloy, as well, or if there is also Threnody-specific Investiture associated with it in addition to silver's natural realmatic properties.

So, what does this have to do with the soul stealing knife? These were created to trap Heralds. But Jezrien didn't persist in the knife; once he was removed from the Oathpact, he faded away. There was nothing to stabilize him, according to Kalak. I think this silver-nickel alloy is a late modification to the knives to try to retain the soul of the Herald after it has been taken. Whereas silver in the cage would drive the Herald's soul away, the alloy does the opposite and keeps them there. (Or is supposed to help with that, at least.)

So I propose that silver repels Cognitive entities, and that the silver-nickel alloy attracts them.

(I promise I won't talk about silver's allomantic symbol as an external metal, or whether an Allomancer would only be able to burn it in the Cognitive Realm, which is why it has been believed to be Allomantically inert.)

See, I immediately went in the opposite direction, in that they needed a solid, durable metal enclosure for the gemstone, but also something which doesn't start producing magical effects if the knife accidentally (or deliberately, I guess) traps a spren in it.

And so the silver nickel alloy, which is magically inert, so they can use it to enclose and hold the gem, while not producing any magical effects either. (I guess they could use ralkalest/aluminium, which is a point in favor of there being some meaning behind this, but still.)

Edited November 19, 2020 by asmodeus

[+Oltux72]

10 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

What is the dagger's function? To guide Investiture, to rip out a soul and send it somewhere else.

A Herald specifically. Whether Raysium is necessary or beneficial for the general operation is unclear.

10 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

That is all accomplished through the raysium; it's what's responsible for the "dagger's function." The silver-nickel alloy (no specific products jump out at me), if it has a function, would be something ancillary.

So, what might a silver alloy do in fabrial science? The trivial answer is that it would do the opposite of purse silver. Which is not all that trivial, truth be told, because we've seen how silver interacts with Investiture. Silver repels Shades

Well, no.

(Threnody)

Spoiler

They still run into it. Silver harms them and in sufficient quantity or with enough violence kills / destroys a Shade. They very much look to avoid silver circles just out of self preservation or pain.

There is no direct attraction or repulsion. Just to be pedantic and not imply a connection to iron.

10 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

and reverses their whithering; it is bad for them, good for people. And the Threnodite chain (in the chapter 64 epigraph, almost certainly the one seen in Celebrant) is able to anchor someone through Cognitive anomalies. (Whatever those are.) This might be a positive effect on the being or a negative effect on the Cognitive anomaly; I can see it either way, depending on if the chain is true silver or a silver-nickel alloy, as well, or if there is also Threnody-specific Investiture associated with it in addition to silver's natural realmatic properties.

So, what does this have to do with the soul stealing knife? These were created to trap Heralds. But Jezrien didn't persist in the knife; once he was removed from the Oathpact, he faded away. There was nothing to stabilize him, according to Kalak. I think this silver-nickel alloy is a late modification to the knives to try to retain the soul of the Herald after it has been taken. Whereas silver in the cage would drive the Herald's soul away, the alloy does the opposite and keeps them there. (Or is supposed to help with that, at least.)

Or alternatively it would sustain an ordinary Cognitive Shadow but fails for a Herald because they are kept around not by an extraordinary charge but by the oath pact.

 

[Dellexe]

Crack theory here, one of the Scholars planted Chromium somewhere in Nightblood, which mixed with the Intent and Command to produce a sword that Leeches Investiture. 

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

I think a big question here is still that since metal seems to have universal properties, and we know silver has properties on Threnody, why haven't they been discovered on Scadrial (or even Roshar). It's a common enough metal that I'm sure people have experimented with it.

[StanLemon]

34 minutes ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

I think a big question here is still that since metal seems to have universal properties, and we know silver has properties on Threnody, why haven't they been discovered on Scadrial (or even Roshar). It's a common enough metal that I'm sure people have experimented with it.

Perhaps its properties are something that would be hard to test. What if silver's property is cleansing corrupted Investiture? That would explain why no one other that the Trenodites have figured out what it does. It's something that would be difficult to test with Fabrials (at least until they get the Fabrials with Voidspren) and Scadrial would have very little context with corrupted Investiture. That's just one possibility I can think of

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

2 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Perhaps its properties are something that would be hard to test. What if silver's property is cleansing corrupted Investiture? That would explain why no one other that the Trenodites have figured out what it does. It's something that would be difficult to test with Fabrials (at least until they get the Fabrials with Voidspren) and Scadrial would have very little context with corrupted Investiture. That's just one possibility I can think of

[SPOILER ERA 2]

That's possible but in that case it would be very useful for dealing with Trell, since we know based on the redness that there's corrupted investiture there. Plus, a 17th (and presumably corresponding 18th) metal seems very strange given the significance of the number 16

[Dellexe]

4 hours ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

I think a big question here is still that since metal seems to have universal properties, and we know silver has properties on Threnody, why haven't they been discovered on Scadrial (or even Roshar). It's a common enough metal that I'm sure people have experimented with it.

I think that "silver" on Threnody is just aluminum. Or Silver that is somehow Invested, and therefore not related to the 16 metals at all. 

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

9 hours ago, KalaDellexe said:

I think that "silver" on Threnody is just aluminum. Or Silver that is somehow Invested, and therefore not related to the 16 metals at all. 

I'm fairly sure there are WOBs confirming that it is actually silver, but I can't seem to find one. If nothing else, there are some that imply it like this

Quote

Questioner

Is silver in Shadows for Silence similar in any way to aluminum in the rest of the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

*hesitantly* Yes, but not really. Silver is like silver, and aluminum is like aluminum.

Questioner

Does aluminum have any specific use in Shadows for Silence?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you could definitely find a use for it.

Skyward San Francisco signing (Nov. 8, 2018)

 

[Kingsdaughter613]

19 hours ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

I think a big question here is still that since metal seems to have universal properties, and we know silver has properties on Threnody, why haven't they been discovered on Scadrial (or even Roshar). It's a common enough metal that I'm sure people have experimented with it.

Silver seems to effect Cognitive entities, especially Shadows. Scadrial only has one CS, and he’s fairly young. So it makes sense they haven’t figured it out.

Roshar has lots of cognitive entities, but most of its Shadows are embodied. That may prevent Silver’s effects from being evident. Raboniel may have known something though.

[Eternal Khol]

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Scadrial only has one CS, and he’s fairly young. So it makes sense they haven’t figured it out.

Theres only one that we know of. It doesnt meal that Kel is the only CS on Scadrial

though i imagine that they are probably pretty sparse, as Scadrial doesnt really have lots of free flowing investiture 

Edited November 29, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[Dellexe]

14 hours ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

I'm fairly sure there are WOBs confirming that it is actually silver, but I can't seem to find one. If nothing else, there are some that imply it like this

 

Hmm, there goes my ThrenodySilver=Aluminum headcanon. 

[theTruthshaper]

I have a much different hypothesis about Threnody silver.

The 'wound' in the Spiritual Realm has messed up everything about Threnody, a weird metal interaction is one of them.

 

[Denth]

I wonder now if mistings like soothers And rioters would be able to effect the spren in the fabrials in the same way as the metal it self.

[Gilphon]

So. Returning to this topic after two months of spoiler-dodging absence. 

That 'Silver-Nickel alloy' has to nicrosil. Most likely, Raboniel doesn't know the difference between silver and chromium. Or perhaps was lying about it being silver, but I think ignorance is more likely on that particular point. It'd be an odd lie to tell.

I'm also inclined to believe that she wasn't being truthful about Raysium's purpose. Both because I doubt they'd equip rank-and-file Fused with Godmetal spears, and because I feel like 'conducts Investiture' is so broadly useful that Brandon wouldn't want to force them to rely on a Godmetal for that when it comes time for them to start making Fabrial computers and such. That part does make sense as a lie for Raboniel to tell; she definitely didn't want Navani trying to reproduce that dagger, so she wanted to believe it relied on the unobtainable Raysium more than it actually did.

But Nicrosil as a metal that naturally conducts investiture? Well that's just a perfect match for how it acts in all three Metallic Arts. It work also explain why they haven't employed those daggers in any previous Desolations; they had to wait for Nicrosil to be discovered before Odium could start thinking about how to apply that knowledge.

This does, of course, raise the question of what Raysium actually does. I do think that both Raysium and Nicrosil is required to make the dagger work. I would speculate that the Raysium is the bit that makes it work on cognitive entities like Spren, Heralds and Fused. 

Edited January 22, 2021 by Gilphon

[ScadrianTank]

Just had an idea. What if, depending on spren and gemstone combination, you could use metal to create either a Feruchemical or an Allomantic effect in a fabrial?

[Gilphon]

To me, learning about fabrials have made the Feruchemical effects a lot more mysterious. The fabrials we've seen mostly are the allomantic effects, or things very similar to them. I do feel like there should be a way of making a fabrial that does something more akin to the Feruchemical properties, but I have no idea how you'd do that. Aside from just cheating via using unsealed metalminds to make a fabrial; I think there should be a better way than that.

[StanLemon]

It makes you wonder if a (Unkeyed?)Metalmind being used would alter the effect in a Fabrial like how it can alter Allomancy 

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

On 1/22/2021 at 2:26 AM, StanLemon said:

It makes you wonder if a (Unkeyed?)Metalmind being used would alter the effect in a Fabrial like how it can alter Allomancy 

This is what I'm wondering. Can you do some form of compounding with fabrials, using metalminds and/or spikes?

[AquaRegia]

On 1/21/2021 at 3:32 PM, Gilphon said:

That 'Silver-Nickel alloy' has to nicrosil. Most likely, Raboniel doesn't know the difference between silver and chromium. Or perhaps was lying about it being silver, but I think ignorance is more likely on that particular point. It'd be an odd lie to tell.

I'm also inclined to believe that she wasn't being truthful about Raysium's purpose. Both because I doubt they'd equip rank-and-file Fused with Godmetal spears, and because I feel like 'conducts Investiture' is so broadly useful that Brandon wouldn't want to force them to rely on a Godmetal for that when it comes time for them to start making Fabrial computers and such. That part does make sense as a lie for Raboniel to tell; she definitely didn't want Navani trying to reproduce that dagger, so she wanted to believe it relied on the unobtainable Raysium more than it actually did.

But Nicrosil as a metal that naturally conducts investiture? Well that's just a perfect match for how it acts in all three Metallic Arts. It work also explain why they haven't employed those daggers in any previous Desolations; they had to wait for Nicrosil to be discovered before Odium could start thinking about how to apply that knowledge.

This does, of course, raise the question of what Raysium actually does. I do think that both Raysium and Nicrosil is required to make the dagger work. I would speculate that the Raysium is the bit that makes it work on cognitive entities like Spren, Heralds and Fused. 

I won't go so far as to say I agree, but each of your points make sense.  Nicrosil = nickel, chromium, silicon (just to make sure nobody mistakenly thinks there is silver in it).

I imagine any of the important metallic elements and alloys - beyond the original Allomantic 8 - must be imported from other worlds; I doubt Roshar has the chemistry, metallurgy or geology to make them.  So I would say "they had to wait for Nicrosil to be revealed."

How much gold and silver have we seen on Roshar?

[Gilphon]

I hadn't thought of the idea of the Nicrosil being imported- but considering we know that Ulim was working with a Feruchemist, that would make a lot of sense. 

I don't off-hand recall any references to gold or silver beyond the 'silver-nickel alloy' we're discussing- and since they're not using gold as money, it's going to be spoke of less than other places. 

I'd be surprised if they didn't have gold at all, though- surely that would be discovered before alloys like brass or steel and hard-to-find elements like Aluminium. 

[AquaRegia]

4 hours ago, Gilphon said:

I'd be surprised if they didn't have gold at all, though- surely that would be discovered before alloys like brass or steel and hard-to-find elements like Aluminium. 

Ever since I learned that Roshar is a young planet, wholly created by Adonalsium, nothing about its geology surprises me.  Everything we know about how metallurgy normally progresses on a "natural" planet is right out the window; it's possible that there is not one single atom of gold on the whole planet (except what worldhoppers have brought in).