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Fabrial Metals

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1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Kalami in Oathbringer already talked about copper and gold.

It was about some constructions in Urithiru, right? I dont have time to search now. Kalami isnt artifabrian, but even then someone can recognise metal or that construction is Fabrial, without knowing function or exact mechanics - i.e. Shallan in WoR.

Besides, I think cages of fabrial clocks are made from gold.

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1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Why can you store allomanic ability and feruchemical ability in nicrosil if that is the case? That strongly suggests that they are the same

I couldnt say with any certainty, but I think it just falls into the random differences between the metallic arts.  It wouldnt be the first time different Arts have different distinctions and/or overlap; for example, Duralumin will steal Identity OR Connection in Hemalurgy, but those require different metals in Feruchemy. 

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5 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

It was about some constructions in Urithiru, right? I dont have time to search now. Kalami isnt artifabrian, but even then someone can recognise metal or that construction is Fabrial, without knowing function or exact mechanics - i.e. Shallan in WoR.

Yes, but was in an official report. If gold or copper were unknown materials to make fabrials with she would report it. That is not something you just ignore. Nor would Navani or other artifabrians let that just pass. And if you made an official report your High Prince may hear, would you not check that such a claim is plausible?

5 hours ago, Quantus said:

I couldnt say with any certainty, but I think it just falls into the random differences between the metallic arts.  It wouldnt be the first time different Arts have different distinctions and/or overlap; for example, Duralumin will steal Identity OR Connection in Hemalurgy, but those require different metals in Feruchemy. 

Yes, but is not the simplest explanation that in allomancy and feruchemy the human spiritweb takes the place of the spren? Technically the source of Investiture is not important. You can do feruchemy with Preservation/Harmony or even Ruin supplying the Investiture.

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On 4.09.2020 at 5:46 PM, Bzhydack said:

No metal is needet to make conjoiners and reversers. Its all precisely cuted gem and spren. I think in fact, pair of conjoiners (or reversers) are not two fabrials, but ONE fabrial. They contain only one spren in two gems - and this is why they move as one. Because they ARE one.

And now starts the funny part.

Because spren need to be physicly (or cognitivly) split to be in two pieces, but also need to be one spiritualy. And this will be not nice. Spliting process is probably very painfull for spren, because of perception (is one entity, should be in one place, but now is in two places! Error).

So I was right about conjoiners - in current chapter Navani confirms that paired fabrials need to split Spren in half.

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Yeah, so possibly the "horrible" thing Navani's doing isn't fabrials in general, it's cutting spren in half.

It's like the Rosharan version of Hemalurgy.

It also opens the possibility that all these other fabrials are fine, and Navani's making great advances, but just has to stop making conjoiners/reversers...

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2 minutes ago, ftl said:

It also opens the possibility that all these other fabrials are fine, and Navani's making great advances, but just has to stop making conjoiners/reversers...

And the messenger used a cojoiner to tell her that?

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Well, it's making them that's bad, not using them. Maybe.

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5 hours ago, ftl said:

Yeah, so possibly the "horrible" thing Navani's doing isn't fabrials in general, it's cutting spren in half.

It's like the Rosharan version of Hemalurgy.

It also opens the possibility that all these other fabrials are fine, and Navani's making great advances, but just has to stop making conjoiners/reversers...

We don’t know if this process is painful for the Spren or not. The Spren is physically apart but spiritually in the same place. 

Edited by Innovation
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7 hours ago, Innovation said:

We don’t know if this process is painful for the Spren or not. The Spren is physically apart but spiritually in the same place. 

I agree that we still need more information to decide ir this is a horrible thing or not.

When I first started analyzing the subject of conjoiners I for one felt a little bit like breaking a spren in half was an aweful thing to do. Even if it's spiritual aspect was still one and not separated because the SR is not location bounded, I still  saw it like something unnatural to the spren and, hence, inmoral. 

But, then I read this week's epigraph and started seeing it from a different POV. It could still be hurtful to the spren, but now I find it more unlikely. Would you consider introducing a stick on a bonfire and carrying that fire somewhere else as hurtful to the fire? This isn't the best metaphor because a flame isn't alive in the same way a flamespren is, but the flamespren is after all how humans perceive flames. My guess is that Navani has find them the easiest to split because of its desire to grow, to be in different places, to light everything on fire. Other spren are harder to split because they don't have this intent so expressed as flamesprens and maybe forcing them to split would be a very horrible thing to do. 

So TL;DR Flamespren want to devide themselfs and are not hurt in this process. Other spren might, so conjoiners ( and probably fabrial science in general, like all science I think) aren't evil by definition, they just need to be made with respect of the spren involved and balance not to alter Roshar's complex spren ecology.

 

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On 9/23/2020 at 2:34 AM, Gilphon said:

The lecture is dated to the same year OB takes place in, so it's before RoW starts,

Oathbringer ended on day 100 of the year 1174. The Lecture is dated Jesevan 1175, roughly 8 and a half months later. I'll grant that it may still be dated as before the start of RoW, but I think it's worth mentioning, if only because that time gap is also part of the reason why the "Repellor ≠ Steel" arguments have had so much steam, see below:

  • At the end of WoR, Navani called Attractor Fabrials a "new invention," and was worried about safety (though Mraize had one half a book earlier that seemed to work perfectly). Navani's people would've had a year and 4 weeks(~520 days) between then and the Lecture to have tried making Repellors.
  • If the tidbit about polarity means what some of you think it means (inverting the fabrial effect), Navani had a Painrial that could both reduce and cause pain at the end of Oathbringer, which means at least 8.5 months(~425 days) worth of knowing about the steel/iron connection with regards to making Repellors.
  • They've had enough spare time to dream up and actually build the bloody airship as well, so it isn't like they've not had the time to test out Repellor designs.

Jofwu and Innovation make good points about there being more factors at play in Fabrial creation, but Navani's exact words were "we don’t yet know the metal to use," and years spent WoB-Hunting & RAFO-Dodging have taught us the value of specific wording, so barring another revelation in the epigraphs, I shall remain on Team Not Steel.

I meant to make this post on the 23rd, but apparently never hit submit. As an aside, I finally found the passage people on Reddit were going on about, WoK Chap 37:

Quote

"Spren live in everything," Hesina said.

"This longroot," Kal said, holding it up skeptically.

"Has a spren."

"And if you slice it up?"

"Each bit has a spren. Only smaller."

Some people were saying we already knew about splitting Spren from Hesina in book one, and as expected, it's not as definitive as they thought it was. Could still be some nice foreshadowing though.

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Ok, in Chapter 15 weve seen another "type" of fabrial - in this "device" or, more correct, action, metal cage is replaced by rythm. By vibrations. Weve seen ardent druming Rythm, and this atract spren, then spren can eat Stormlight from giant gemheart and stimulate growth of crops.

This looks like "natural" way of using spren - spren isnt trapped inside gemstone, is outside, so can move freely. It is symbiosis. More even, looks like rosharan animals are using this exact mechanism - they can drum Rythms with their heartbeats and this atract spren.

So we see difference between fabrials and animals - fabrials have Rythm replaced by metal, also they have spren inside Gemstone, or bonded to cage in Shadesmar. But we have also creatures, who have spren inside gemhearts. Yep, Singers.

So, practicly only difference is Fabrials are made from metal. But is this really difference?

Metal cage has exact same function as Rythm. I think, because cage IS Rythm.

Precise construction of cage is literaly imprintment of particular Rythm. Like music notation. Probably because of metals properties, cage can "resonate" with particular Rythm and transfer it to the Spren.

EDIT

Of course, i forgot very important thing. Cymatics. Cymatics is why this partialy worka and will be the key to understand this mechanic.

Edited by Bzhydack
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On 9/8/2020 at 6:55 PM, Dreamwa1ker said:

Changing the polarity of the fabrial eh? Anyone else think transistors? STORMLIGHT COMPUTERS!!!  :lol: *squee* Space era Cosmere will be a thing of beauty.

And now this week...

Quote

A breakthrough has come in discovering that logicspren will vary the light they radiate based on certain stimuli. For example, if you make the Light leak from the gemstone at a controlled rate, the spren will alternate dimming and brightening in a regular pattern. This has led to fabrial clocks.

When the gemstone is tapped with certain metals, the light will also change states from bright to dim. This is leading to some very interesting and complex mechanisms.

Yes called it! Fabrial computers. GET HYPE.

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3 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Ok, in Chapter 15 weve seen another "type" of fabrial - in this "device" or, more correct, action, metal cage is replaced by rythm. By vibrations. Weve seen ardent druming Rythm, and this atract spren, then spren can eat Stormlight from giant gemheart and stimulate growth of crops.

This looks like "natural" way of using spren - spren isnt trapped inside gemstone, is outside, so can move freely. It is symbiosis. More even, looks like rosharan animals are using this exact mechanism - they can drum Rythms with their heartbeats and this atract spren.

So we see difference between fabrials and animals - fabrials have Rythm replaced by metal, also they have spren inside Gemstone, or bonded to cage in Shadesmar. But we have also creatures, who have spren inside gemhearts. Yep, Singers.

So, practicly only difference is Fabrials are made from metal. But is this really difference?

Metal cage has exact same function as Rythm. I think, because cage IS Rythm.

Precise construction of cage is literaly imprintment of particular Rythm. Like music notation. Probably because of metals properties, cage can "resonate" with particular Rythm and transfer it to the Spren.

Now.

This makes me curious for one particular idea.

Is there a 1:1 correspondence between the fabrial cage metals' effects and the effects of various Rhythms? For example, hypothetically, if the Rhythm of Joy was the "same" as Zinc for a fabrial... Could Singers then modify their Forms with "subforms" by attuning or singing different Rhythms? like the war chants of the Warform listeners on the shattered plains, was that enhancing their Warform's abilities further?

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On 10/13/2020 at 11:02 PM, Halyo_Alex said:

Is there a 1:1 correspondence between the fabrial cage metals' effects and the effects of various Rhythms? For example, hypothetically, if the Rhythm of Joy was the "same" as Zinc for a fabrial... Could Singers then modify their Forms with "subforms" by attuning or singing different Rhythms? like the war chants of the Warform listeners on the shattered plains, was that enhancing their Warform's abilities further?

I think those were just for coordination and I also think that rhythms are not equivalent to spren or metals.

Edited by Karger
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So. Since the metal Navani was talking about last week was clearly aluminium, we can now say the Fused's spears are not aluminium. We do, however, know that it's silvery, which can narrow it down nicely.

I had been thinking that they were Chromium, because the overall function of the spears is so similar to a Leecher, but hearing Navani say that really what the metal does is conduct Investiture makes me thinks that Duralumin is a better fit- the draining part is handled by the gem; the metal's just a conductor. Because really that's what that does in Allomancy, it pulls in more Investiture that you'd otherwise get for the reaction. And it would also nicely parallel how Aluminium can be used as an insulator. 

So between the two of them, you get a lot of potential for circuitry. Man, now that I say it like that, using it just to make those spears is really wasting its potential. Just goes to show how far ahead the humans are at understand Fabrials, I suppose. 

Edited by Gilphon
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2 hours ago, Gilphon said:

So. Since the metal Navani was talking about last week was clearly aluminium, we can now say the Fused's spears are not aluminium. We do, however, know that it's silvery, which can narrow it down nicely.

I had been thinking that they were Chromium, because the overall function of the spears is so similar to a Leecher, but hearing Navani say that really what the metal does is conduct Investiture makes me thinks that Duralumin is a better fit- the draining part is handled by the gem; the metal's just a conductor. Because really that's what that does in Allomancy, it pulls in more Investiture that you'd otherwise get for the reaction. And it would also nicely parallel how Aluminium can be used as an insulator. 

So between the two of them, you get a lot of potential for circuitry. Man, now that I say it like that, using it just to make those spears is really wasting its potential. Just goes to show how far ahead the humans are at understand Fabrials, I suppose. 

I am inclined to believe it is duralumin as well.

If it ends up being chromium, I'll be disappointed, but I'll get over it.

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In previous chapter epigraph weve seen note about Aluminum, of course, but probably not pure, but alloy - alluminum is soft, weapon need to be stronger, and we know that is possible to alloy Aluminum and get material strong enough for weapon (Miles's gun) still magic-resistant.

In this chapter, my first thout was Nicrosil, after that was Chromium.

Looks like I, @Lightspine, @GudThymes and @hoiditthroughthegrapevine were right in topic about Fused Spears.

Edited by Bzhydack
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24 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

In previous chapter epigraph weve seen note about Aluminum, of course, but probably not pure, but alloy - alluminum is soft, weapon need to be stronger, and we know that is possible to alloy Aluminum and get material strong enough for weapon (Miles's gun) still magic-resistant.

In this chapter, my first thout was Nicrosil, after that was Chromium.

Looks like I, @Lightspine, @GudThymes and @hoiditthroughthegrapevine were right in topic about Fused Spears.

Wow, I was not expecting that to be brought up while I was writing an expansion of my theory in that thread. Here's the new one, if you're interested:

I'm really not sure what the metal could be. It could still be some sort of aluminum alloy, although that would make it weird that it can contain stormlight. Conductors don't contain an electric field, but they do contain current—which is what equates to stormlight in my analogy.

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I believe that @Bzhydack means the metal from last week is an alloy of aluminum, and he stated his beliefs about the spears' metal on his post.

About the shardblade-blocking metal - aluminum alloy is probably the best option. I was very surprised to see in the read-along discussion on tor the idea that both are god metals, but now that I think of it, it might be an alloy of one with aluminum, which I think was done on scadrial too with trellium.

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I don't think you'd need to alloy the aluminium, just coat your weapon in it. Like a pure aluminum weapon isn't going to block a Shardblade because it's not strong enough to withstand the physical force of the blow. But putting an aluminium coat over a steel weapon should work just fine. 

Like using the same alloy as Miles' guns is theoretically possible, but more complicated than you'd need, and the Fused seem to have a worse understanding of Fabrials than the humans do, so I don't think they'd getting into special alloys that are still new and exciting innovations over on Scadrial. Like Scadrial has got to have more advanced metalworking techniques than the Fused do. 

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So now we have two new metals.  Keeping score we have.

On 10/13/2020 at 4:06 PM, Karger said:

Zinc and Brass control "expression strength" with zinc increasing and brass decreasing this.  Bronze is used for warning fabrails, Pewter for augmenters, Tin for diminishers, and Iron for attractors. Steel and Iron also "change polarity" although we do not yet know what this means.

Assuming these are also allomantic metals they could be cadmium, chromium, nicrosil, aluminum, duralumin, bendalloy(they would ID gold, copper or electrum pretty quickly).  I kind of want to rule out aluminum and duralumin as well since those are also known on roshar.  This leaves four interesting possibilities(unless a godmetal is involved).

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The thing is that we can conclusively eliminate everything you just mentioned except aluminium for the first one, because the epigraph was just talking about what the metals does by itself. If any of the other metals had aluminium-esque properties, they definitely would've noticed that on Scadrial. Unless a godmetal is involved, as you mentioned.

It's also worth noting that Bendalloy is the wrong colour to be the one used in the Fused's spears, as is Odium's godmetal. Not that I think any of us are seriously considering Cadmium or Bendalloy in this context. 

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51 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

If any of the other metals had aluminium-esque properties, they definitely would've noticed that on Scadrial. Unless a godmetal is involved, as you mentioned.

I would agree except we really don't know what aluminum does.  Sure it it touted by us as investiture kryptonite but that can't be it otherwise you could not use it to store identity.  Lets imagine a scenario.  You are doing an experiment with chromium where for some reason you have someone push on it and this pulls mists into one end and out the other.  Would this be noteworthy to a layperson on scadrial?  I am guessing no.

54 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

It's also worth noting that Bendalloy is the wrong colour to be the one used in the Fused's spears, as is Odium's godmetal. Not that I think any of us are seriously considering Cadmium or Bendalloy in this context. 

I agree to a point but again we don't have any reason to avoid considering them.

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1 hour ago, Karger said:

I would agree except we really don't know what aluminum does.  Sure it it touted by us as investiture kryptonite but that can't be it otherwise you could not use it to store identity.  Lets imagine a scenario.  You are doing an experiment with chromium where for some reason you have someone push on it and this pulls mists into one end and out the other.  Would this be noteworthy to a layperson on scadrial?  I am guessing no.

You're responding to the wrong point here. Like yeah, there might not have noticed any metals conducting the mist, but that's not the claim I was responding to. We're talking about  a metal that 'can withstand the blows of a Shardblade, resists being Soulcast, and interferes with a great number of Radiant powers'. Surely a metal that does all that would have some kind of noticeable effect if you tried to use Allomancy on it, right? Because, y'know, we're almost 100% certain that aluminium does those things, and one would expect a metal that, as far as we can tell, interacts with the Rosharan magics identically to aluminium, would also have pretty similar interactions with the metallics arts. At very least, one would certainly expect it to be similar enough that it would've been noteworthy, considering how prized aluminium weapons are on Scadrial.

Unless what you're arguing is that aluminium doesn't block Shardblades or interfere with Radiant powers. Which is, uh... well, the burden on proof lies quite firmly on your shoulders at that point, and you'd definitely need an argument a lot stronger than 'Navani hadn't figured out what it was when she was giving the lecture'. Since, y'know, that's easily explainable by the fact that aluminium is a rare curiosity that doesn't live at the forefront of everyone's minds on Roshar, and so it could take a little while for somebody to remember that they'd heard of a Soulcasting-resistant metal in a different context.

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4 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

Unless what you're arguing is that aluminium doesn't block Shardblades or interfere with Radiant powers

I am not.  We have some pretty conclusive WoBs and I am fully up to date.

5 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

and interferes with a great number of Radiant powers

Note the word interferes.  Why not say resist?  They say it for soulcasting but not for other powers.  Perhaps they did something to an existing metal?  A treatment process that expanded its identity and innate investiture?

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