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NOW I am worried about Shallan


Michael Portz

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3 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

So if Brandon wants this state of affairs to change in his narrative, he needs to do something, anything with this "character" called Adolin

You are forgetting his anger management issues. He mauled Kal in WoR in plate to a degree he could have died according to Zahel. He snapped and murdered Sadeas, what Shallan calls "honest passion". Sadeas murder not having consequences for Adolin personally was frankly weird in OB. 

In these first chapters Adolin attacks the cultist therby foiling Shallans plan. At some point this is gonna have consequences, probably in this book.   

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43 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

You are forgetting his anger management issues. He mauled Kal in WoR in plate to a degree he could have died according to Zahel. He snapped and murdered Sadeas, what Shallan calls "honest passion". Sadeas murder not having consequences for Adolin personally was frankly weird in OB. 

In these first chapters Adolin attacks the cultist therby foiling Shallans plan. At some point this is gonna have consequences, probably in this book.   

I think this is not the cases of some character arc going on, just a touches Brandon gave to Adolin to not make him a walking cardboard. After all he is a good writer and even if the character is more of tool or function, he still has set of features.

in case of Adolin i see that he is more or less cocky, more or less stoic, sometimes possessive, and WoR ending was pretty reasonable and logic result of the build up that Brandon had through the whole book. He is able to kill in cold blood.

The biggest proof to me that Adolin isnt major character at all is that Brandon didnt intend to show Adolin in Part 1 of OB, and did this only after beta testers pointed at lack of Adolin in Shallan chapters.

In case of Shallan health, i see next problem Adolin may create:

First in WoR (i wont let anyone hurt you) and then in the end of OB (where he said that he let Kaladin have her) he show the glimpse of possessive behavior. It didnt happen much, i guess its his deeply buried trait that appeared in very special cases. This triggered Shallan a lot since she is all about freedom and was left by Brandon on purpose to outline what are the problems Adolin may bring to their relationships.

This has a reflection in RoW already, where Shallan wants the freedom of action as a spy and Adolin rushed to the rescue and potentially could ruin her plans.

In terms of relationships between both characters another big problem are the secrets if Shallan still keeping them and how poor Adolin can deal with it. Prologue between Navani and Gavilar also were pretty interesting if to project them onto Shallan and Adolin. In both cases one keep the secrets and hurts the other.

Im afraid, Shallan may seriously hurt Adolin refusing to trust him just like Gavilar hurt Navani in prologue. 

Not only that. Navani interest in Dalinar made Gavilar cruel. Im afraid Veil interest in Kaladin (if there will be any of course) may turn Adolin cruel too. He has that dark thing in him that made him killed Sadeas and show possesive attitude and that may be triggered by Shallan lies easily. 

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2 hours ago, Diomedes said:

You are forgetting his anger management issues. He mauled Kal in WoR in plate to a degree he could have died according to Zahel. He snapped and murdered Sadeas, what Shallan calls "honest passion". Sadeas murder not having consequences for Adolin personally was frankly weird in OB. 

In these first chapters Adolin attacks the cultist therby foiling Shallans plan. At some point this is gonna have consequences, probably in this book.   

 

1 hour ago, Harbour said:

I think this is not the cases of some character arc going on, just a touches Brandon gave to Adolin to not make him a walking cardboard. After all he is a good writer and even if the character is more of tool or function, he still has set of features.

But these points are not exclusive! Adolin doesn't currently have any arc or development worthy of a major character... but yes, at the same time he's got the perfect subtle set of traits that have only been an occasional tool so far but together point towards something interesting (and dark). Given his personality and history he's perfectly capable of doing something reckless with terrible consequences, being manipulated to do so by someone smarter (e.g. Taravangian) and/or choosing to solve personal problems over what's morally right (Sadeas' murder). Add to it the fragile situation with Shallan, the feeling of being left out and disappointment with Dalinar (over killing Evi) and if he's not in the most Anakin-like situation I've seen in years then I don't know who is.

Edited by Ailvara
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4 hours ago, Harbour said:

Not only that. Navani interest in Dalinar made Gavilar cruel. Im afraid Veil interest in Kaladin (if there will be any of course) may turn Adolin cruel too. He has that dark thing in him that made him killed Sadeas and show possesive attitude and that may be triggered by Shallan lies easily. 

Adolin is not Gavilar.  He understands that people can be attracted to each other without it being wrong or somehow offensive.  Additionally Veil may like Kaladin but she does not love him(I actually don't think Veil has that capability) and she has expressed irritation at Windrunners in general.

4 hours ago, Harbour said:

This has a reflection in RoW already, where Shallan wants the freedom of action as a spy and Adolin rushed to the rescue and potentially could ruin her plans.

He is worried about his wife who he does not have any way of knowing has things in hand and thought was signalling for help! 

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41 minutes ago, Karger said:

He is worried about his wife who he does not have any way of knowing has things in hand and thought was signalling for help! 

He did have a way of knowing:

Quote

She did spot Pattern watching from a wall nearby, ready to report to Adolin if needed.

 

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9 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

He did have a way of knowing:

Quote

She’d told Pattern and Adolin—who might be watching by now—that if she was in distress, she’d create a distraction so they could attack. They’d try to take the cultists captive, but it could lose them the chance to capture Ialai.

She made a distraction.

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11 hours ago, Karger said:

All of his messed up romances, a strained relationship with a loving father(that nearly destroyed the world if you think about it), trouble sorting out how to behave around Kaladin, nearly getting himself killed at the dueling arena in WoR, nearly failing his relationship with the "woman of his dreams"...

I actually think that Adolin is one of the more well balanced characters in SA.  His arcs are largely internal but they are still happening.  He is just a friendly guy trying to help out, thinking about what he wants, and wondering why he fails part of the time and if that is important or not.  That sounds like my average weekday.  His arc is mine.

"All his messed up romances" is a very broad statement, and certainly is part of his backstory. However, can you give one example of how all of these messed up romances (of which we have little to nodetail as to WHY Adolin messed them up) in his past affected his romantic pursuit of Shallan in a negative way? Also, "nearly failing his relationship" with Shallan? Did we read the same version of Oathbringer? Adolin didn't "nearly" fail at anything with regards to her. He was compassionate, attentive, supportive, loving, and considerate in all his interactions with her. He was never jealous, possessive, abrasive, or distant to her, even though those would be some very real, very human reactions to seeing the person you hope to marry constantly drooling over someone else. At the end of the book, Shallan thinks something to the affect of "oh no, i've screwed it up!" and then "now he's trying to ruin it". But that's the joke, that's the irony. She's right on the first thought, but wrong on the second. Shallan is the only one culpable in Adolin's hesitation towards her at the end. He is just responding naturally as any person would to his betrothed displaying obvious signs of attraction to another person. She triggered that, not him, it was her failings that almost broke them up, not his.

As for the strained relationship with Dalinar, I would agree, Adolin had this arc: in Words of Radiance. And it was concluded in that book, with nothing considerable happening in Oathbringer to pick it back up. We are assuming that future revelations on Dalinar's past (the truth of Evi), and Adolin's OB confession (Sadeas) are going to have some impact on them, but it is just speculation, character potential for Adolin that may or may not be realized in this next book. Hence my assertion that Brandon had better do something with Adolin's character in RoW.

Adolin got into the 4v1 duel because a single moment of focused anger towards a particular person (Sadeas) caused him to forget to think about dueling codes. His blistering hatred for the man is also what causes him to murder him later. Adolin's singularly focused hatred towards Sadeas could indeed be considered a character flaw, I wholeheartedly agree. It caused him to exhibit a pattern of behaviors that had negative consequences, and caused him to act against his own interest. However, the key word here is was. That arc is done, finished. The focus of that anger, that flaw, is gone, and thus far, Adolin has not faced any personal complications for the murder of that focus. Even if Adolin eventually faces some sort of repercussion for that act, the character flaw itself: the focused anger at Sadeas is still gone, it has no more legs to run on, unless he transfers it over to someone else. And then, then I might agree that he has anger problems.

Trouble sorting out how to behave around Kaladin was a personal flaw or failing for Adolin? If it is, then everyone else in the narrative had/has this flaw too. Everyone was trying to figure out how to behave around Kaladin. Why? Because of Kaladin's own character flaws that make him come off as an obnoxious and discriminating <explicative>. More on this below.

In summary, I don't think you've provided much evidence for Adolin still having arcs to complete for his character. I would agree with you that Adolin is a balanced character, however he is balanced at a development "depth" that is much shallower than a lot of other POV's. Brandon has even said that when it comes to Adolin "what you see is what you get". He's a main character POV with secondary character development, at best.

The narrative requires a death, one that can deliver the full weight of this conflict to us, the readers, in a way that we truly haven't felt yet. Adolin is currently the only character who fits this need. 

7 hours ago, Diomedes said:

You are forgetting his anger management issues. He mauled Kal in WoR in plate to a degree he could have died according to Zahel. He snapped and murdered Sadeas, what Shallan calls "honest passion". Sadeas murder not having consequences for Adolin personally was frankly weird in OB. 

In these first chapters Adolin attacks the cultist therby foiling Shallans plan. At some point this is gonna have consequences, probably in this book.   

No, I am not forgetting his anger management issues, because he does not have ongoing problems with managing his anger. He has moments where his anger can get the best of him, like every other character in the story, but it is not a debilitating trait of his. Characters do not see Adolin as an angry person. Most readers don't see him as that. Having constant issues with controlling his anger would be something noteworthy about his interactions within the narrative, just like Dalinar's reputation as the Blackthorn was.

As for mauling Kaladin, I could not figure out what you were talking about here, so I had to dig up WoR and do some reading, and I think you're being a bit hyperbolic with your description of the events. The text, found in the chapter "Bruises"

Quote

Kaladin barreled forward and threw his shoulder against the prince. It was like slamming into a wall. Kaladin’s shoulder flared with pain, but the momentum—along with the surprise of his cudgel blow—knocked Adolin off balance. Kaladin forced both of them backward, the Shardbearer toppling to the ground with a crash and a surprised grunt. Renarin made a twin crash, falling to the ground nearby. Kaladin raised his half-spear like a dagger to plunge it toward Adolin’s faceplate. Unfortunately, Adolin had dismissed his Blade as they fell. The princeling got a gauntleted hand up underneath Kaladin. Kaladin slammed his weapon downward. Adolin heaved upward with one hand. Kaladin’s blow didn’t connect; instead he found himself airborne, thrown with all the Plate-augmented strength of a Shardbearer. He floundered in the air before slamming down eight feet away, the sand grinding into his side, the shoulder he’d hit against Adolin flaring in pain again. Kaladin gasped.

Kaladin's ferocity takes Adolin by surprise, knocking him over. Kaladin then proceeds to attempt to slam a real spearhead into Adolin's faceplate. Adolin shoves him off with one arm, and sends Kaladin flying. So your interpretation of that scene is that Adolin "mauled" Kaladin. Mauled him? Really? Go back and read that section. Kaladin looks at Adolin in shardplate and sees only Amaram, and he is out for blood. It takes over him and has him attempting to seriously maim or injure Adolin. If Adolin hadn't had his arm between the two of them, Kaladin would have brought that spear tip right down into Adolin's face. So Adolin gets a pass from me for tossing Kal off of him quickly, without much thought to safety. 

In fact, while you're in there, give the other Kaladin chapters in that section of the book a reread. It is a great example of what Adolin's character is lacking in terms of flaws, by direct comparison to Kaladin during this time. Kaladin's hatred for lighteyes, and Amaram in particular, has him acting in ways that are very off-putting to almost every person who doesn't know him intimately. It's what keeps Adolin's suspicions toward him up, it hampers his ability to contribute to strategic or tactical discussions that happen around Dalinar's inner circle. It makes him less effective of a bodyguard, AND less effective of a leader. Even Moash...MOASH has to dress him down at one point for his attitude (Chapter 16 "Swordmaster"). Also, Kaladin's attitude here, his disregard for authority, his hatred of the class system and lighteyes in general, are acting on Moash at this point in the narrative. He's not setting an example for Moash to follow about how to deal with anger towards people who have wronged you. He's building confidence in Moash that Kaladin would be understanding of Moash's desire for revenge, even a possible ally in the act itself. Kaladin's blindness towards his own flaw is actively contributing to his friend wandering astray, which come back to bite him later, and are clearly still acting on him at the start of RoW

Kaladin's anger issues (for they are real anger issues), have him acting in a manner that continually alienates friend and foe alike. It makes it more difficult for him to act effectively in Dalinar's household, and to manage his responsibilities as a leader. They also have him acting in ways that set poor examples for the men that follow him, one of whom ends up becoming a principal antagonist later as a result. Real, tangible, long lasting consequences that Kaladin still has to deal with. THAT is building a character flaw in your narrative.

 

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2 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

Mauled him? Really?

He throws him with all the strenghth of a Shardbearer. According to Zahel this could have killed Kaladin, which I would indeed define as "mauling". I saw a definite arc in WoR of Adolin often reacting with violence to problems which resulted in him murdering Sadeas.  But this topic is about Shallan. 

On Sadeas murder there was this topic, in which I argued unsucessfully against the mainstream on Adolin`s anger management issues. 

 

Edited by Diomedes
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4 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

(of which we have little to nodetail as to WHY Adolin messed them up)

Contextually.  It was because he was smiling at the waitress while on a date coupled with his reputation of being flighty that made his partners overly agressive.

4 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

Also, "nearly failing his relationship" with Shallan? Did we read the same version of Oathbringer? Adolin didn't "nearly" fail at anything with regards to her. He was compassionate, attentive, supportive, loving, and considerate in all his interactions with her

He also made a number of mistakes.  The fact that these were not mistakes of dramatic importance but rather the more quiet sort of mistakes that plenty of people make when they are in a relationship do not make them any less important to Adolin personally. 

4 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

As for the strained relationship with Dalinar, I would agree, Adolin had this arc: in Words of Radiance. And it was concluded in that book, with nothing considerable happening in Oathbringer to pick it back up

The two of them were separated for most of that book.  I am assuming that their relationship still requires some work and that work is going to happen on screen.

4 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

However, the key word here is was. That arc is done, finished. The focus of that anger, that flaw, is gone, and thus far, Adolin has not faced any personal complications for the murder of that focus. Even if Adolin eventually faces some sort of repercussion for that act, the character flaw itself: the focused anger at Sadeas is still gone, it has no more legs to run on, unless he transfers it over to someone else. And then, then I might agree that he has anger problems

He still has to work out why he did it and come to terms with what that means for him as a person.

4 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

In summary, I don't think you've provided much evidence for Adolin still having arcs to complete for his character. I would agree with you that Adolin is a balanced character, however he is balanced at a development "depth" that is much shallower than a lot of other POV's. Brandon has even said that when it comes to Adolin "what you see is what you get". He's a main character POV with secondary character development, at best.

Agreed but I don't think that is a bad thing.  He was not supposed to be a major character like Kaladin or Dalinar.  His job was to help us understand SA in general and help the characters understand themselves and each other.  There is room for expansion if you want to go that way depending on what happens in SA4 but that does not indicate that he is either flawed or pointless.

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22 hours ago, Diomedes said:

But this topic is about Shallan.

True. I have gone off course with my discussion. I was going to start a thread on Adolin specifically, but wanted to wait a few more sample chapters until we got some scenes with him (assuming we get any good ones). Couldn't help it from bleeding over when I was going through this topic, unfortunately.  Perhaps when I have more time to do such a thread justice, we can revisit this discussion on the definition of "mauling", and your thoughts on whether Adolin's throwing of Kaladin off of him with "all the strength of a Shardbearer" was an appropriate response to defend his life. For now, I'll switch off my Adolin discussion in this thread.

21 hours ago, Karger said:

Agreed but I don't think that is a bad thing.  He was not supposed to be a major character like Kaladin or Dalinar.  His job was to help us understand SA in general and help the characters understand themselves and each other.  There is room for expansion if you want to go that way depending on what happens in SA4 but that does not indicate that he is either flawed or pointless.

I think you misunderstood me. I was not trying to establish Adolin's state as a character as a bad thing. I was using his current state as evidence that he is at extreme narrative risk for an untimely death. That was the crux of my argument: Adolin's current lack of long term arc or growth is a strong indicator that he is at the top of the list for the narrative's required "meaningful death". The fact that he is sharing his time in this book primarily with Shallan increases the likelihood that she will be involved in those circumstances, and is also likely to be related to her own ongoing arc. To bring things back full circle, this strong potential (in my mind at least) for Adolin's death will put Shallan's mental and emotional well being at great risk, depending on how it is dealt with.

Sorry to take us on such a roundabout journey. I'll save the remainder of my Adolin thoughts for a topic appropriate thread.

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3 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

That was the crux of my argument: Adolin's current lack of long term arc or growth is a strong indicator that he is at the top of the list for the narrative's required "meaningful death".

It also makes it most likely that killing them off would be meaningless.  Doing so is actually a pet peeve of mine and Brandon should(and generally does) know better.  He tends to kill off more important people that we have gotten attached to in meaningful ways.  Cosmere

Spoiler

Like Lightsong, Elend, Vin, and so on.  Breeze.  A minor character with an arc related to helping a major one(Sazed) was perfectly fine.

6 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

The fact that he is sharing his time in this book primarily with Shallan increases the likelihood that she will be involved in those circumstances, and is also likely to be related to her own ongoing arc. To bring things back full circle, this strong potential (in my mind at least) for Adolin's death will put Shallan's mental and emotional well being at great risk, depending on how it is dealt with.

I think we have vastly different understandings of how Shallan's arc is "supposed to" work.  I don't think it is a good idea for Shallan, whose arc is tide to self discovery, to be beholden to outside forces entirely when going through her character development.  In my mind at least she should work by exploring the natural consequences of choices she makes not by consistently hitting her with additional trauma(that is Kaladin's thing).

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59 minutes ago, Karger said:

He tends to kill off more important people that we have gotten attached to in meaningful ways.

That's my point. Adolin is currently perfectly balanced on that line between "not important enough to readers to have the desired impact" and "too important to the narrative arc or is currently in the middle of their own character arc". He's in what I would call the "Goldilocks spot" for this. If Brandon puts Adolin into a new personal arc for this story, then his chances of being offed during that arc are decreased, much smaller. If Brandon completes that arc and then kills them, that is also possible. Adolin is important to readers. We have spent enough time with him. He's been developed just enough to put him in this position. I never said Adolin wasn't important, both to characters in world or to readers outside of it. You yourself indicated such an attachment, meaning that his death would likely have more impact on you than other character deaths we've seen thus far (though perhaps I'm off on that assessment). What I've tried to make clear in earlier posts, is that  he currently has no personal arc that is being explored. Without one, he is unattached to the narrative in a way that puts him at risk for death. That is the point I am trying to make, hope that is a bit clearer.

59 minutes ago, Karger said:

I think we have vastly different understandings of how Shallan's arc is "supposed to" work.  I don't think it is a good idea for Shallan, whose arc is tide to self discovery, to be beholden to outside forces entirely when going through her character development.

I think we're just having a misunderstanding/miscommunication. I don't recall having indicated that I thought Shallan's arc wasn't about personal discovery, or was going to be resolved for her by outside actors. If I did, it was not my intent, and a mistake in my communication, apologies.

Edited by DeployParachute
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13 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

I think we're just having a misunderstanding/miscommunication. I don't recall having indicated that I thought Shallan's arc wasn't about personal discovery, or was going to be resolved for her by outside actors. If I did, it was not my intent, and a mistake in my communication, apologies.

Isn't that what killing Adolin for the sake of hurting Shallan would be doing?

14 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

That's my point. Adolin is currently perfectly balanced on that line between "not important enough to readers to have the desired impact" and "too important to the narrative arc or is currently in the middle of their own character arc".

Is he?  He is a decently important character but I think killing him for the sake of killing someone is a rotten strategy.  I think Brandon has better taste.

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14 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

He currently has no personal arc that is being explored. Without one, he is unattached to the narrative in a way that puts him ads at risk for death. That is the point I am trying to make, hope that is a bit clearer.

I kinda agree. The only major thing going on with him is whether he'll manage to revive Maya. If he does, I would be very worried about his short term survival.

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