RoW Chapter 6 Discussion

[Gilphon]

So:

• Some people last week were starting to ship Kaladin/Leshwi. I am now formally joining that group. It's clear that they've built up a good deal of mutual respect over the time skip; matching each other in battle and agreeing to spare each other's forces on request. In retrospect, Moash really got lucky went he beat her. Knowing how to react to the Lashings must've really caught her off guard.
• Discord between types of Fused! The respect for 1-on-1 duels and ignoring civilians seems to be a thing all Heavenly Ones share, not just Leshwi. So is the more brutal attitude a thing that all Transportation Fused do, or is that particular one just unusually bad? I'm kind of thinking the latter, because surely they wouldn't quite function is two entire orders were constantly undermining each other the way Leshwi's undermining him here. 
• They've recruited 'a few' standard Truthwatchers. So we're not looking at the same number as what we've seen with Edgedancers and Windrunners. I would guess that what we have is a small number of 'rogue' Truthwatcher spren breaking from the standard doctrine. It really is feeling like the Cultivationspren are the most willing to bond. 
• Ooh boy, Shallan, I can't help but think that an assassination is gonna go badly for you. This isn't like her husband, where he was effectively above the law and his murder was a spur of the moment emotional response. This is a premeditated killing of somebody who could be dealt with in other ways, just because you feel those other way would be too much of a distraction for Dalinar and Jasnah. That's a bad, Shallan.

[Honorless]

1) The Heavenly Ones have honour

2) Kaladin's wrong, I think, they do lose a little bit of themselves upon being killed

3) Is Leshwi... is she teaching Kaladin?

4) More Truthwatchers confirmed!

5) So Truthwatchers can use Illumination to cast illusions. Renarin can use light that have esoteric effects sometimes. Voidbinding? Something more fundamental leaking through because of the mixing of powers? What's his futuresight then? A Resonance? Illumination of Progression? 

6) Moash has 20/20 vision, I'm jealous. Rushu is easily distracted, I can relate.

7) I'd be happy if Shallan just offs Ialai anti-climactically

Edited August 11, 2020 by Honorless

[Michael Portz]

1 minute ago, Honorless said:

3) Is Leshwi... is she teaching Kaladin?

How so?

[Kuram]

45 minutes ago, robardin said:

Now, what the heck was Moash doing at this battle? He didn't fight, and immediately retreated from sight when spotted. Is he being used as bait to draw out Bridge Four?

We've had reading of the next two chapters (only the Kaladin portions) so we know what he's doing for that at least.  If you go back and read about Moash's history you can probably figure out what he wants.

[Pagerunner]

• Spren respond to different types of metal in different ways. I wonder if we'll see any similarities to the Metallic Arts. Or if silver is one of the metals involved (which isn't Allomantic). Or what, if any, the aluminum has; as I've said in my detailed thread on conjoiners, I don't think what was described on the Fourth Bridge involves aluminum in the cage; rather, it's the aluminum box blocking effects like we saw in Oathbringer.
• Secret passages in the chasms. Is this new? Or is it, like I predicted in the Way of Kings Prime thread, something older that was discovered and repurposed?
• "Veil, however, hadn’t pushed this mission solely to gather evidence for Dalinar. She hadn’t even done it because the Ghostbloods saw Ialai as a threat." Looks like we've still got some dual motives going on.
• "The hardest thing in the world for Kaladin to do was nothing." Ah, the Fourth Oath again.
• "Leshwi hummed a loud tone, and the gemstone on her spear began to glow, sucking Stormlight from her prey." Is the humming functional? Moash didn't need to do anything else to kill Jezrien, and that looked similar. Although it wasn't quite the same; taking Stormlight vs something funky about Jezrien's soul and the Oathpact. And there's no hum when she uses it on Kaladin later, so I don't think the hum activates it. Just an affectation, Leshwi interacting with Rhythms.
• "“Then what are you so worried about?” Navani asked, making a notation on her list. Nearby, Renarin had stepped up to the family with the sniffling children. He summoned a small globe of light, then began bouncing it between his hands. Such a simple thing, but the children who saw it grew wide-eyed, forgetting their fear. ... Renarin couldn’t do that. He could only summon lights, and they did strange, unnatural things sometimes..." I've got nothing. No clue what these lights could be. Voidish Progression, maybe?
• "She could visit it in person if she wished, using the Oathgates—but something felt different about these visions. ... “I didn’t see anything, Brightness,” Rushu said. “But... I felt something. Like a pulse, a powerful thump. For a moment I felt as if I were falling into eternity...”" Oathgates are apparently functioning to get them into the Cognitive. What's different about what Dalinar does is that it also taps into the Spiritual. Is Navani the only one hearing this tone?
• "“And I’ve read the journals.” The ones Jasnah would give her, anyway. Storming woman." Gotta save something for Jasnah's flashbacks.
• "“We’re looking for something else,” Navani said, glancing at Dalinar—then shielding her watering eyes. She blinked, then waved for Rushu to follow her to withdraw back to the nearby command post. “There’s someplace beyond Shadesmar, a place where Dalinar gets this power. Once long ago, the tower was maintained by a Bondsmith like my husband—and from what the spren have said, I conclude that the tower got its power from that place beyond Shadesmar as well.”" Does "like my husband" mean Stormfather Bondsmith? Does it mean Sibling Bondsmith? More interesting implications, since Melishi's power was still active after the abandonment of the tower. I'm guessing it could be any Bondsmith to provide power - if it was a specific Bondsmith spren involved, then the tower would break whenever that Bondsmith would die, unless there was some sort of handoff/retirement/waiting in the wings. The fabrial-like functions of the tower itself would be independently contingent on the Sibling's integration. So we've still got power as long as there's any Bondsmith to manage it, but the functions stopped working when the Sibling retreated.

[Honorless]

1 minute ago, Michael Portz said:

How so?

Kaladin thinks she's just testing him, but he learned all that maneuvering from copying, dueling & racing her

[+robardin]

Just now, Kuram said:

We've had reading of the next two chapters (only the Kaladin portions) so we know what he's doing for that at least.  If you go back and read about Moash's history you can probably figure out what he wants.

Ah the video readings aloud of portions of Ch 7/8 from back in July? I didn't click on that because I figured, why would I want to hear that before reading anything from Ch 1-6?

I still haven't clicked on it because I don't like being read to, I prefer the voices in my own head. (That came out wrong, or maybe it came out too accurately?) So I'll find out next Tuesday, I guess!

[+Oltux72]

Moash used Stormlight in plain sight of Navani. Either he made a bad mistake, or he does not care about the Radiants knowing that he is carrying an Honorblade. This is extremely odd.

[Gilphon]

2 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

I've got nothing. No clue what these lights could be. Voidish Progression, maybe?

I mean, surely they're Voidish Illumination. Since that's the Truthwatcher surge that they're talking about Renarin not being able to use in the normal way. 

[Rainier]

9 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

And here I was hoping that Shallan would be able to deal with Ialai better than Adolin did with Sadeas. Oh well. 

What ever do you mean? She is dealing with Ialai better than Adolin did was (Torol) Sadeas. She has a plan, and has spent time on this. He did it in a moment of rage and passion. She set up an alibi, a patsy, and plausible deniability. He cut off his cuffs and ditched the body over a cliff.

Sounds better to me!

[Gilphon]

Also, with Navani being able to get a better view of the Spiritual Realm than Rushu and the repeated emphasis on her desire to reactivate the Tower, it really feels like we're heading in a 'Navani as the Sibling Bondsmith' direction. 

[+Oltux72]

19 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

• Ooh boy, Shallan, I can't help but think that an assassination is gonna go badly for you. This isn't like her husband, where he was effectively above the law and his murder was a spur of the moment emotional response. This is a premeditated killing of somebody who could be dealt with in other ways, just because you feel those other way would be too much of a distraction for Dalinar and Jasnah. That's a bad, Shallan.

Executing a traitor under war time conditions while being kidnapped. What else is she supposed to do? Arrest a Highprincess in her own war camp?

[+robardin]

14 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

• Spren respond to different types of metal in different ways. I wonder if we'll see any similarities to the Metallic Arts.
• "Veil, however, hadn’t pushed this mission solely to gather evidence for Dalinar. She hadn’t even done it because the Ghostbloods saw Ialai as a threat." Looks like we've still got some dual motives going on.
• "The hardest thing in the world for Kaladin to do was nothing." Ah, the Fourth Oath again.
• "Leshwi hummed a loud tone, and the gemstone on her spear began to glow, sucking Stormlight from her prey." Is the humming functional? Moash didn't need to do anything else to kill Jezrien, and that looked similar. Although it wasn't quite the same; taking Stormlight vs something funky about Jezrien's soul and the Oathpact. And there's no hum when she uses it on Kaladin later, so I don't think the hum activates it. Just an affectation, Leshwi interacting with Rhythms.
• "She could visit it in person if she wished, using the Oathgates—but something felt different about these visions. ... “I didn’t see anything, Brightness,” Rushu said. “But... I felt something. Like a pulse, a powerful thump. For a moment I felt as if I were falling into eternity...”" Oathgates are apparently functioning to get them into the Cognitive. What's different about what Dalinar does is that it also taps into the Spiritual. Is Navani the only one hearing this tone?

I was wondering about the mention of "different types of metal" as well...

I actually missed that detail about the Ghostbloods and Ialai in my first read-through, and the linking of Kaladin's discomfort with "doing nothing" being potentially tied to his block to the Fourth Oath. Nice.

I thought the "loud humming" when she got through Sigzil's defenses was likely satisfaction, or whatever more destructive Odium-flavored Rhythm would match. The fact that she didn't do so later with Kaladin, I think, speaks somewhat to the burgeoning frenemy thing going on there.

And yes, I totally think Navani seeing into Shadesmar and hearing that tone where Rushu doesn't appear to do so, is suggestive of something developing with Navani. You know what I'm talking about.

[Gilphon]

Quote

Executing a traitor under war time conditions while being kidnapped. What else is she supposed to do? Arrest a Highprincess in her own war camp?

Bring evidence of her treachery to Dalinar. Like he asked her to do, and presumably signed off on this mission thinking that that was what she was going to do. Indeed, I imagine he's going to be somewhat annoyed at Shallan for going off-script like this. 

Edited August 11, 2020 by Gilphon

[Asrael]

If all this honor among the Heavenly Ones is totally legit (and not a clever misdirect, as someone suggested Leshwi being part of leading Kaladin into a Moash trap) I'm calling it now that the Heavenly Ones take some flak from other Fused for their honor. I'm betting that there are those who view it as blasphemous Honor worship in character, and project some of their anger at Honors alleged betrayal onto these Fused.

[Yezrien]

Quote

Kaladin took a slice on the neck—but not enough for her to siphon away his Stormlight. 

Maybe the cut broke the skin, but it can't drain Stormlight unless it touches flowing blood. This is looking more and more hemalurgic.

Also, what about Navani's "something beyond Shadesmar" theory? She's almost figured out that there's a Spiritual Realm, and that she can potentially use it as an unlimited power source. Holy crem, fabrial technology is about to storming explode!

[Honorless]

I liked that feeling of reading Sigzil being in danger, of saving him potentially meaning a real clash next time, just one man's life on the scales, and yet I did not for a single nanosecond entertain the possibility that Kaladin would let that happen.

Navani wants to look into the Spiritual Realm, possibly hearing the Rhythms.

What would happen when Moash is captured? It'd be wicked to see Kaladin and Navani butting heads over Moash's fate

Edited August 11, 2020 by Honorless

[bdoble97]

I think Leshwi and Kaladin are going to team up at some point. Probably to Kill Moash. I so think that Leshwi will join forces with Kalsdin bc she does not like the way the other fused are acting. I am probably wrong but that seems interesting to me 

[Karger]

36 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

And here I was hoping that Shallan would be able to deal with Ialai better than Adolin did with Sadeas. Oh well. 

Nothing has been done yet...

35 minutes ago, PrinceGenocide said:

I think the windrunners and skybreakers were the first ones to use gravitation and hence the surge began to see itself as only accessible by those who had honor. 

So I guess being honorable is a key to access gravitation

Radiants came after fused.

34 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

So is the more brutal attitude a thing that all Transportation Fused do, or is that particular one just unusually bad? I'm kind of thinking the latter, because surely they wouldn't quite function is two entire orders were constantly undermining each other the way Leshwi's undermining him here. 

Depending on the skill of the commander it is possible for individuals with different ideologies to work well together.  I am assuming that back in the day the different groups of fused all were singers with different kinds of ethics.  As soldiers the heavenly ones have a battlefield ethic left over.  However the teleporter was probably not a soldier so his ethics might be based on something else.

38 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

They've recruited 'a few' standard Truthwatchers. So we're not looking at the same number as what we've seen with Edgedancers and Windrunners. I would guess that what we have is a small number of 'rogue' Truthwatcher spren breaking from the standard doctrine. It really is feeling like the Cultivationspren are the most willing to bond. 

We have actually seen Truthwatchers since book one.  I think it is just that because the type of people that those spren bond tend to be the ones people don't pay attention to that it is taking a while to find them all.

35 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

"“Then what are you so worried about?” Navani asked, making a notation on her list. Nearby, Renarin had stepped up to the family with the sniffling children. He summoned a small globe of light, then began bouncing it between his hands. Such a simple thing, but the children who saw it grew wide-eyed, forgetting their fear. ... Renarin couldn’t do that. He could only summon lights, and they did strange, unnatural things sometimes..." I've got nothing. No clue what these lights could be. Voidish Progression, maybe?

Spiritual realm manifestations?

36 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

"“We’re looking for something else,” Navani said, glancing at Dalinar—then shielding her watering eyes. She blinked, then waved for Rushu to follow her to withdraw back to the nearby command post. “There’s someplace beyond Shadesmar, a place where Dalinar gets this power. Once long ago, the tower was maintained by a Bondsmith like my husband—and from what the spren have said, I conclude that the tower got its power from that place beyond Shadesmar as well.”" Does "like my husband" mean Stormfather Bondsmith? Does it mean Sibling Bondsmith? More interesting implications, since Melishi's power was still active after the abandonment of the tower. I'm guessing it could be any Bondsmith to provide power - if it was a specific Bondsmith spren involved, then the tower would break whenever that Bondsmith would die, unless there was some sort of handoff/retirement/waiting in the wings. The fabrial-like functions of the tower itself would be independently contingent on the Sibling's integration. So we've still got power as long as there's any Bondsmith to manage it, but the functions stopped working when the Sibling retreated.

Dalinar is the first to bond the stormfather in his current state.

21 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Executing a traitor under war time conditions while being kidnapped. What else is she supposed to do? Arrest a Highprincess in her own war camp?

Doing so would be awesome.

41 minutes ago, Honorless said:

3) Is Leshwi... is she teaching Kaladin?

Yes but I am not sure they are entirely the right lessons.  Mot of what she teaches him is good but I think a few points are also pretty bad.

[Honorless]

Just now, Karger said:

Yes but I am not sure they are entirely the right lessons.  Mot of what she teaches him is good but I think a few points are also pretty bad.

What do you mean? 

[Karger]

Just now, Honorless said:

What do you mean? 

She is not necessarily teaching Kaladin what Kaladin wants to know she is teaching him what she wants to know.  Fused do have some understanding of combat ethics.  We don't always agree with other fused.  Causing pain is often pointless.  Here are some good flying tips but also I think she might be getting in his head and not in a good way.

[Pagerunner]

34 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

I mean, surely they're Voidish Illumination. Since that's the Truthwatcher surge that they're talking about Renarin not being able to use in the normal way. 

I may just be overthinking this, but now that I've overthought it a little bit more, here's why I'm getting confused: 

We've seen Renarin use normal Progression. And we've seen him see the future, which I assume is Voidish Illumination. He has a lack of Lighweaving, so it appears he does not have regular Illumination. So that caused me to wonder if he's starting to pick up Voidish Progression of some sort. The glowing orbs aren't an end to themselves; they would do something else when he used them, but he's dismissing these precursors before performing the real magic because he doesn't know any better.

There are other issues baked in there. We've seen Fused use Lighweaving, so is Renarin really using Voidish Illumination? Alternatively, if he's picking up a third power, maybe he's just starting to learn real Illumination (as a sign that perhaps Glys is naturally uncorrupting himself)? Or this could be a unique Resonance to powers that are never normally paired?

So that's why I'm saying I have no idea. Because I do have a lot of ideas and a lot of assumptions that need to be challenged, none of which I believe are defensible. So I'm gonna hope we get payoff in this book, because I don't see enough ground to stand on a position yet.

[Gilphon]

I mean, The Fused seem to be using the normal surges, not Voidish surges. Like we've seen Kaladin thinking about how their powers mimics what Radiants can do; they're not a whole new set of powers he doesn't understand. And creating a ball of light is pretty obviously an Illumination power- just because Future Sight is also probably Voidish Illumination doesn't mean it can only used to do one thing. 

[Honorless]

Also I forgot, when did the Oathgates start allowing transition between the Realms?

Quote

she sketched what she saw, trying to capture an image of that place with the strange sun over a sea of beads. She could visit it in person if she wished, using the Oathgates—but something felt different about these visions.

Did Dalinar, Bonded to the Stormfather, the shadow of Honor, ("the parent", on whose orders the Oathgate spren stopped allowing transition between the Realms), convince the Oathgate spren to allow it again?

Edit: spoilers for rest of the book

Spoiler

Looking back, it's pretty well foreshadowed that "The Parent" was in fact the Sibling, not Honor. The gender neutral term should've clued us in. The Oathgates are also all connected to Urithiru.

That is interesting. Did the Sibling create the Oathgates and Oathgate spren? Like the Stormfather created Honorspren. Or did he change some spren (they look like Inkspren & Reachers, which fits, they both grant the Surge of Transportation), like Sja-Anat? The Enlightened spren call her "Mother".

 

Edited June 6, 2021 by Honorless

[teknopathetic]

2 hours ago, Honorless said:

Also I forgot, when did the Oathgates start allowing transition between the Realms?

Did Dalinar, Bonded to the Stormfather, the shadow of Honor, ("the parent", on whose orders the Oathgate spren stopped allowing transition between the Realms), convince the Oathgate spren to allow it again?

Dalinar has the authority to free Odium, so it isn't a huge stretch that he and the Stormfather have the authority to open the Oathgates.

Edited August 11, 2020 by teknopathetic