My biggest fear regarding Gaz

[Karger]

31 minutes ago, SanderFan69 said:

Gaz who used to be such a selfish person.

I would really like that.  Proof that even the worst of us have the capacity to change to some degree.  Something small nudging Kaladin in the right direction.

[Toaster Retribution]

My main issue with Gaz is that it felt like quite a big moment when he joined Shallan in WoR, but since then Vatahah and Red have actually gotten more screen-time than him, despite the feeling I got during WoR that he would be a major supporting character going forward. So now, it feels like there is a chasmfiend in the room whenever Gaz is around. The fact that he has a previous history with Bridge Four and Kaladin (and thus the readers) hasn´t really been adressed. It almost feels like Brandon kind of forgot that he was an important character back in WoK. I have long wondered if there is some endgame/point to him going forward, or if he is just going to be a Lightweaver minion from now on?

[+robardin]

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

My main issue with Gaz is that it felt like quite a big moment when he joined Shallan in WoR, but since then Vatahah and Red have actually gotten more screen-time than him, despite the feeling I got during WoR that he would be a major supporting character going forward. So now, it feels like there is a chasmfiend in the room whenever Gaz is around. The fact that he has a previous history with Bridge Four and Kaladin (and thus the readers) hasn´t really been adressed. It almost feels like Brandon kind of forgot that he was an important character back in WoK. I have long wondered if there is some endgame/point to him going forward, or if he is just going to be a Lightweaver minion from now on?

There is no chance that Brandon, who outlines and plots out story arcs completely before filling in the words, "kind of forgot" about Gaz's role in TWoK and what it meant to Kaladin and Bridge Four (especially given the scene when they were first "reunited" in Words of Radiance when Shallan arrived at the warcamps, or the offhand mention by Gaz while hanging out with Shallan's semi-forgotten crew of Vathah's band of how he was glad "those storming bridgemen haven't strung me up by my toes").

It's a ten book arc, and each book is a trilogy unto itself, yeah? So, patience! Yes, the Gaz-and-Bridge-Four dynamics will be interesting to see, but given what else happened in Oathbringer, it's not too surprising that it was sort of put onto a back burner. (And I would assume any such arc fits into the first five books as the set-within-a-set.)

Edited August 25, 2020 by robardin

[agrabes]

Personally, I think it's fine if Gaz stays mostly in the background.  I think it's better that way.  There just isn't enough room in the book to give Gaz a significant story arc of his own.  I feel like Teft was given too much screen time in OB.  I would have rather that was handled more like Gaz - a few lines sprinkled in that let us know things have been going on in the background that have led to growth.  I like Teft as a character, just don't want his personal arc taking screen time.  The only Bridge 4 members (other than Kaladin of course) I'd be interested in hearing about on their own are Rock and Rlain because they seem to have real interesting stuff to do that doesn't involve the main cast and plot.

Plus, as a Lightweaver squire, Gaz is by nature going to keep himself hidden and out of view of the bridgemen.  I think at some point there will be a scene where this becomes a minor point of tension between Kaladin and Shallan (how could you work with the guy who harassed me and sent me to certain death!), they will work it out and then the issue will be dropped.  Gaz will stay a background character in Shallan's orbit.

[Subvisual Haze]

I feel very ambivalent towards him.  I generally like themes of redemption, but usually there's some sort of struggle or penance the hero goes through to atone for their mistakes.  Gaz was pretty awful person and then just sort of fell face first into a rewarding position.  

[Toaster Retribution]

3 hours ago, robardin said:

There is no chance that Brandon, who outlines and plots out story arcs completely before filling in the words, "kind of forgot" about Gaz's role in TWoK and what it meant to Kaladin and Bridge Four (especially given the scene when they were first "reunited" in Words of Radiance when Shallan arrived at the warcamps, or the offhand mention by Gaz while hanging out with Shallan's semi-forgotten crew of Vathah's band of how he was glad "those storming bridgemen haven't strung me up by my toes").

It's a ten book arc, and each book is a trilogy unto itself, yeah? So, patience! Yes, the Gaz-and-Bridge-Four dynamics will be interesting to see, but given what else happened in Oathbringer, it's not too surprising that it was sort of put onto a back burner. (And I would assume any such arc fits into the first five books as the set-within-a-set.)

No, I don’t think Brandon forgot Gaz. I just pointed out that it feels that way, regardless of wether he has or not. 

[bdoble97]

He got his eye back. I hope he looses the other at some point hahah. 

[Xerun]

Well that’s my fears realized. He obtained squirehood without any approach to redemption for his actions. I know Stormlight is a big book but it just feels like it misses the beat a little.
 

This reminds me of Szeth joining the battle in Oathbringer. we saw on screen Szeths changes but none of the characters did. So when he joins it makes sense to us, but the characters should be dead against it and no one says a word except Jasnah making one offhand comment. It just feels wrong. 
 

ultimately I’m disappointed that Gaz has just advanced and not shown any slight form of redemption for the things he did to our on screen characters

[Subvisual Haze]

Moash killing Gaz would make a lot of thematic sense.  Moash is Kaladin's shadow, literally carrying out Kaladin's repressed desires for vengeance.  

Edited August 26, 2020 by Subvisual Haze

[SomeRandomPeasant]

On 8/11/2020 at 8:16 AM, Aminar said:

I mean... Wow. If you can't understand why Gaz felt pressured into the things he did and why that's perfectly understandable I can only be glad you've never had the need to feel his perspective for yourselves. He was in debt, trying to do a job, under the thumb of a truly awful person. He left because it became too much. He set himself on the path of redemption with Shallan. That's how rehabilitation works. 

I am kind of shocked that Gaz isn't expected to accept any kind of accountability for what he did.  Of course Sadeas is responsible for creating such a horrid system in the first place.  But Gaz did not have to behave as vindictively and maliciously as he did.  There is a difference between a boss who has to fire an employee but is polite about it, between a boss who takes sadistic pleasure in bullying the people who work for them.  One boss is going out of their way to be cruel simply because they can, simply because their subordinates have no power to resist. 

At a certain point in WoK, Gaz was indeed pressured by his light-eyed superiors to get Bridge Four killed.  He shouldn't be blamed for not sticking his neck out for some people he barely knew.  But before Bridge Four became infamous, Gaz went out of his way to pick the wings off of the unfortunate slaves who worked under him.

Of course there are greater villains out there than Gaz.  But you can not simply handwave Gaz's behavior as if he was simply doing his job.

Edited August 30, 2020 by SomeRandomPeasant

[Isilel]

On 25.8.2020 at 10:34 PM, Xerun said:

Well that’s my fears realized. He obtained squirehood without any approach to redemption for his actions.

 

Well, Gaz was the first to jump on the chance to be a decent person that Shallan offered in WoR, despite the danger, he hinted to her that he was ashamed of his past and also told her that even if she couldn't/wouldn't obtain the pardon for the deserters and they were all horribly executed, he'd still have been glad for the opportunity to act like a good person for a few weeks that she gave him. So, there was some kind of redemptive work going on in the background, as is fitting for a bit character. There might be more in RoW, but it isn't like even the central PoV characters necessarily apologize to the people whom they have wronged until much further into their Radiant development.

BTW, it is an unfortunate human tendency to take their frustrations out on others who are even more powerless. Which the powerful constantly exploit to keep the heat away from themselves. Gaz hated his job as a sergeant of bridgemen and lived in constant fear of becoming one of them. This is not an excuse, but it is clear that he would have never sought this position of his own free will. I.e. he was not normally a sadist.

[+Oltux72]

5 hours ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

At a certain point in WoK, Gaz was indeed pressured by his light-eyed superiors to get Bridge Four killed.  He shouldn't be blamed for not sticking his neck out for some people he barely knew.  But before Bridge Four became infamous, Gaz went out of his way to pick the wings off of the unfortunate slaves who worked under him.

Of course there are greater villains out there than Gaz.  But you can not simply handwave Gaz's behavior as if he was simply doing his job.

Sure you can. That you do not feel so would just make you a bad Vorin. You are supposed to anticipate and take over the attitude of your superiors. He tried to do his job well, which is more important under Vorinism than to be nice.

[SomeRandomPeasant]

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Sure you can. That you do not feel so would just make you a bad Vorin. You are supposed to anticipate and take over the attitude of your superiors. He tried to do his job well, which is more important under Vorinism than to be nice.

Well, in that case, I guess we can't blame people like Roshone and Dalinar for committing foul deeds while in the service of others. 

Roshone simply had no choice in sending Tien off to die in a border dispute.  After all, Roshone knew his Highlord needed more recruits.  Poor Roshone was forced to act the way he did.  Dalinar had to burn Rathalas to ground, regardless of the massive amount of innocents inside.  His brother, the king of Alethkar, wanted the problem solved.  Are Dalinar's actions seen as permissible even though he did not pursue alternative solutions, such as only executing the conspirators?  At what point is someone unable to use the excuse: "I was simply following orders"? All three men went above and beyond the call of duty when it came to fulfilling the commands of their superior. 

Taking away personal responsibility is something that Odium or Moash would advocate for.  It is possible for Gaz to be redeemed but he must first accept that he was personally responsible for a lot of cruelty.  I am unsure why so many people are willing to give Gaz a pass when he should be, at the very least, held accountable for his actions.

Edited August 30, 2020 by SomeRandomPeasant

[Xerun]

8 hours ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:Taking away personal responsibility is something that Odium or Moash would advocate for.  It is possible for Gaz to be redeemed but he must first accept that he was personally responsible for a lot of cruelty.  I am unsure why so many people are willing to give Gaz a pass when he should be, at the very least, held accountable for his actions.

 

this is what I don’t understand about the people advocating that none of this is Gaz’s fault in any way. It’s like they didn’t read the end of Oathbringer. The theme of that book isn’t “Taking responsibility for your actions ONLY IF YOURE IN A POSITION OF POWER”.  Saying Gaz bears no accountability because of his superiors just ignores everything that book tried to insinuate. 
 

sure is Gaz the worst character in the book? No. But he did have direct grievances with a main character that was never addressed before he was awarded the status of Radiant (which appears to be a near celebrity status in Roshar) and it feels undeserved. 

[ftl]

For me it depends on how big of a role he plays. If he becomes a major player, I would expect that we see some of his character growth. If he continues to be "one of Shallan's interchangeable Lightweaver squires" then I'm fine with the character growth having happened off-screen. We're definitely at the point now where there's lots of Radiants whose names we don't even *know*, and Gaz's had a year between Oathbringer and RoW to improve, so that could have happened. We don't know his Truths, or if he's said any.

I definitely don't think Radiant status is given as a reward for being a good person. Dalinar was a radiant before the end of Oathbringer, while he still literally didn't have the memories of what he had done and couldn't take responsibility for it. I think Teft was already a radiant at the point he sold his coat for firemoss? Not sure on that one.

[agrabes]

I think Gaz does need to atone for his prior actions.  But that should happen off screen.  We hear in a line or two about how he is sorry for what he did.  Maybe we get a short scene where he runs into Kaladin again and apologizes.  Maybe we find out he's quietly been helping refugees or something.  Just keep it in the background.  

[I Am A Fish]

16 minutes ago, agrabes said:

I think Gaz does need to atone for his prior actions.  But that should happen off screen.  We hear in a line or two about how he is sorry for what he did.  Maybe we get a short scene where he runs into Kaladin again and apologizes.  Maybe we find out he's quietly been helping refugees or something.  Just keep it in the background.  

 

On 8/30/2020 at 7:25 AM, SomeRandomPeasant said:

Well, in that case, I guess we can't blame people like Roshone and Dalinar for committing foul deeds while in the service of others. 

Roshone simply had no choice in sending Tien off to die in a border dispute.  After all, Roshone knew his Highlord needed more recruits.  Poor Roshone was forced to act the way he did.  Dalinar had to burn Rathalas to ground, regardless of the massive amount of innocents inside.  His brother, the king of Alethkar, wanted the problem solved.  Are Dalinar's actions seen as permissible even though he did not pursue alternative solutions, such as only executing the conspirators?  At what point is someone unable to use the excuse: "I was simply following orders"? All three men went above and beyond the call of duty when it came to fulfilling the commands of their superior. 

Taking away personal responsibility is something that Odium or Moash would advocate for.  It is possible for Gaz to be redeemed but he must first accept that he was personally responsible for a lot of cruelty.  I am unsure why so many people are willing to give Gaz a pass when he should be, at the very least, held accountable for his actions.

Well I don't see anyone asking Dalinar to apologize to the people of Rathalas, Or Roshone to apologize to Tien.

But that might just be me.

I think Gaz apologizing isn't a bad thing. It's just not something that's needed. I feel his redemption has already kind of happened. Would it be nice for an apology moment? Yeah sure. Is my worst fear for RoW that he won't apologize? No. 

Once again I feel it should be said. Gaz is not an amazing human being. But he's not a horrible one either. Gaz was one step away from a bridgeman himself. I don't blame him for not kissing up to them. Could Gaz have been nicer? Yes. But would that have put him at potential risk? Yes. This issue is more than black, and white, like some people are making it out to be.

[Shardsplinter]

This discussions regarding Gaz and how much he can be held accountable for his acctions while in charge of B4 and how much of it can be blamed on "the system" reminded me of the Standford Prision Experiment. First up, I want to make clear that every human being is completely  responsable for his/her actions no matter how complex the situation he/she is involved might be. Gaz chose not to stand up to the injustice his lighteye superiors were imposing and even more he chose to perpetrate it. Gaz chose to behave sadistically and to take advantage of his position of power over the bridgemen. That is not up for debate, the question is if those actions necessarily make him a bad human being and this is where I remembered the Standford Prision Experiment. 

If you don't know the SPE "was a social psychology experiment that attempted to investigate the psychological effects of perceived power, focusing on the struggle between prisioners and prisión officers. It was conducted at Standford Universitario on the days of August 14–20, 1971, by a research group led by psychology professor Philip Zimbardo using college students. In the study, volunteers were assigned to be either "guards" or "prisoners" by the flip of a coin, in a mock prison, with Zimbardo himself serving as the superintendent. Several "prisoners" left mid-experiment, and the whole experiment was abandoned after six days. Early reports on experimental results claimed that students quickly embraced their assigned roles, with some guards enforcing authoritarian measures and ultimately subjecting some prisoners to psychological torture, while many prisoners passively accepted psychological abuse and, by the officers' request, actively harassed other prisoners who tried to stop it. The experiment has been described in many introductory social psychology textbooks, although some have chosen to exclude it because its methodology is sometimes questioned." (thanks Wikipedia)

This is similar to conclusiones reached when analyzing the actions by regular people put in positions of power during the nazi regime.

Sorry for the aweful examples but sadly in human history people in small positions of power during wars or slavery( or as in This chase, both) have often acted in horrible ways. Gaz's actions are clearly not those of a hero, but not of a villain either (not in the way Moash's, Sadeas' or Rayse's can be) simply of a commun man that acted like it was to be expected of him in a very complex situation( he was being threaten of being turn into a bridgemen, in hunter or prey scenarios even more people hace a tendency to do anything not to become prey)

This being said I, as a reader, have not forgive him. When he first met Kal after the events of WoK I felt like Kal was going to demand justice, but he didn't. While Kaladin actually demanded justice for Brightlord Amarams' actions in his past ( an actual villain) he never did so with Gaz. I think that he being a better person than I am understands that Gaz isn't a bad person. He just doesn't trust him as "one of the good guys"

And here is the thing, I don't know enough about history but I'm guessing that when the Standford PE ended the college student who participated felt responsable for what they had done and after the Nazi regimed was defeated people like the ones I described earlier on( that weren't necessarily bad, just didn't wanna end up dead) felt sick and disgusted by their own actions. This can go either way: break u forever or make u commited to showing yourself that you can be a better human being. And don't this two things sound exactly like the recipe for a Knight Radiant? 

I believe that Gaz is really trying, in his own way( nobody ends up a better person from night to mourning), to do things the right way and small details of this has been shown. Something as simple as getting WoR to Shallan on WoR was his way of saying thank you for saving me from myself. I really hope that we get to see in book a little bit more of his growth. I don't think he has to apologize to B4, his actions would speak much louder. I believe that on RoW will get at least a small gester from him to see his redemption arc more clearly because like many others I think it's hasn't been shown enough. What I would hate is if he ends up betraying the main charachters or something like that because I really believe he's the king of person that given the chance will live up to the expectations. I really think that KR and even more Lightweavers really represent the spirit that nothing in live can break u so much that there isn't hope foto you to become a better person if you accept to yourself the mistakes you made and who you were, ate and are capable of being. So, really excited to read Gaz's trueths wich *fingerscrossed" we might get on this next book.

PS: Sorry this was so long, but I've been following this thread since the beginning and I really felt like I had to share my opinions.

PS2: I'm not at expert on the subjects of history or psychology, I simply mentioned those examples to make some comparison to real life. 

[+Oltux72]

On 31/08/2020 at 1:26 AM, Xerun said:

this is what I don’t understand about the people advocating that none of this is Gaz’s fault in any way. It’s like they didn’t read the end of Oathbringer. The theme of that book isn’t “Taking responsibility for your actions ONLY IF YOURE IN A POSITION OF POWER”.  Saying Gaz bears no accountability because of his superiors just ignores everything that book tried to insinuate. 

It is not the case that following order excuses doing something bad. Honor is about following oaths first and foremost. Following orders is following your oaths if you are in an army. Or as the Stormfather said about Rathalas: They broke their oaths. Treating people humanely is tertiary at best. Following oaths and duties is primary. Remember how Nale lauded Szeth for following orders. This is not a matter of needing an excuse. You do not. Following orders is a virtue.

 

EDIT:

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Well, in that case, I guess we can't blame people like Roshone and Dalinar for committing foul deeds while in the service of others. 

Neither was ordered to do what he did.

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Roshone simply had no choice in sending Tien off to die in a border dispute.  After all, Roshone knew his Highlord needed more recruits.  Poor Roshone was forced to act the way he did.

Of course he had a choice. There were a lot of young men in that village. Arguably he did his overlord a disservice by sending him an inferior recruit. He abused his power and position, again, for personal reasons. That is what makes him bad.

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  Dalinar had to burn Rathalas to ground, regardless of the massive amount of innocents inside.  His brother, the king of Alethkar, wanted the problem solved.  Are Dalinar's actions seen as permissible even though he did not pursue alternative solutions, such as only executing the conspirators?

You might note that Dalinar was treated with awe rather than revulsion. And I could quote the Stormfather again. What Dalinar did at Rathalas does not cause universal condemnation. Part of fealty is that you suffer for your lord's actions.

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  At what point is someone unable to use the excuse: "I was simply following orders"? All three men went above and beyond the call of duty when it came to fulfilling the commands of their superior. 

Roshone certainly did not. Dalinar arguably did. And there never was an uprising after Rathalas.

Gaz did follow orders. Running a bridge was supposed to be punishment. That was what got Teft there. Yes, Gaz did enjoy it. No, that does not make him bad. The idea that only in denial of yourself and your nature can you find nobility is a specific Western, in fact Christian, notion. Vorins do not share it. Virtue is excellence in your strength. You have a calling and you are supposed to be best at what you love.
Hence if you are charged with mistreating slaves, you will be supposed to draw at least satisfaction for a job well done from it.

Edited September 1, 2020 by Oltux72
omitted an answer

[EggArdent]

who knows maybe that will be one of his truths as a lightweaver, or maybe it was one of his, I don't think we ever actually heard him speak his truths.

I also have a soft spot for gaz, I'm not sure why but I do.