My biggest fear regarding Gaz

[Xerun]

Seeing Red is now a progressed Lightweaver I’m really worried that the year time skip will allow Gaz to have also progressed to a point. I don’t feel his character deserves the redemption without admitting onscreen what he did to Bridge 4. 

[I Am A Fish]

I don't think he's that bad. He WAS a bit of a jerk, but his actions were forced while in Sadeas' army. I think you might be viewing him a bit harshly.

But that's just my opinion. After all I'm a Fish, not a literary critique.

5 minutes ago, Xerun said:

I don’t feel his character deserves the redemption without admitting onscreen what he did to Bridge 4. 

Don't you mean what Sadeas' did.

[bdoble97]

1 hour ago, Xerun said:

Seeing Red is now a progressed Lightweaver I’m really worried that the year time skip will allow Gaz to have also progressed to a point. I don’t feel his character deserves the redemption without admitting onscreen what he did to Bridge 4. 

Good point I hated him in Way of Kings and never liked that fact that he started working for Shallan. I have a coworker who I picture Gaz as when I first read his character short, fat big bug eyed and bald. Cant stand the guy. 

[Karger]

I really do want to see his on screen progress.  Maybe just this once one of the people Moash and Kaladin both hated could actually redeem themselves.

[Xerun]

1 hour ago, I Am A Fish said:

I don't think he's that bad. He WAS a bit of a jerk, but his actions were forced while in Sadeas' army. I think you might be viewing him a bit harshly.

But that's just my opinion. After all I'm a Fish, not a literary critique.

Don't you mean what Sadeas' did.

Sadeas forced the structure. Gaz specifically did hateful things that weren’t forced on him just because; like not give Kaladin shoes or a vest before his first bridge run.
 

Sadeas in a way has paid for his crimes. Gaz has not. And I would feel very upset at the idea of him being rewarded with a Spren bond without first trying to apologize for what he did. 

[I Am A Fish]

4 minutes ago, Xerun said:

like not give Kaladin shoes or a vest before his first bridge run.

Ok, that's spiteful. Not evil. He's just someone in a bad position, with no way out.  

And beside that what did he do wrong?

Edited August 10, 2020 by I Am A Fish

[Innovation]

He did flee the warcamps, at least. Better to desert than to serve under Sadeas, in my opinion. Sadeas was an eel. He couldn’t change his position in the army and was unable to travel, so I can see his predicament. He was rather spiteful to the bridgemen however. You could argue either way, but at the end of the day the Cryptics don’t seem to discriminate between good or bad. Just truth or lies. 

Edited August 10, 2020 by Innovation

[I Am A Fish]

Just now, Innovation said:

At least he fled to warcamps. He couldn’t change his position in the army and was unable to travel, so I can see his predicament. He was rather spiteful to the bridgemen however. You could argue either way, but at the end of the day the Cryptics don’t seem to discriminate between good or bad. Just truth or lies. 

I still don't think Gaz is a bad person. He was in a bad place, but having felt like I was there myself, I can say of assurity that he was acting like most people would in that situation. Unlike the bridgemen he didn't have a Kaladin. The only people he had were his supervisor's, who constantly threatened to make him a bridgeman. Unlike the bridgemen he hadn't hit rock bottom. So he was holding on in sheer desperation, praying he wouldn't fall, while his hand was slowly slipping. If you remember a lot of Bridge four treated Kaladin just as badly at first, the only difference is Kaladin worked hard to win them over.

[Xerun]

15 minutes ago, I Am A Fish said:

Ok, that's spiteful. Not evil. He's just someone in a bad position, with no way out.  

And beside that what did he do wrong?

Tried to kill Kaladin (or at the very least tried to create situations in which Kaladin would die), specifically encouraging them to do side carry so that he’d failed and be killed 

Refused to give Bridge 4 more men so they would be a bigger target for the Parshendi. 
 

that’s off the top of my head but I feel like he also tried to prevent things Kaladin attempted just because he could. 

[I Am A Fish]

16 minutes ago, Xerun said:

Tried to kill Kaladin (or at the very least tried to create situations in which Kaladin would die), specifically encouraging them to do side carry so that he’d failed and be killed 

Refused to give Bridge 4 more men so they would be a bigger target for the Parshendi. 
 

that’s off the top of my head but I feel like he also tried to prevent things Kaladin attempted just because he could. 

No it's because Kaladin put him at risk. The system was made in a way that he had to have them killed.

Because if they weren't killed, he would be.* 

I don't think you're understanding the point I'm trying to make. Gaz was NOT the problem, the system was. That's like blaming american POW's for manufacturing Nazi weaponry. They could've refused to do it, but then they'd be dead. And the weapons would've still been produced.** 

*And while fantasy protagonists seem to find that it's an easy to sacrifice yourself, would you actually be able to do it for something as futile as this? Even if he did make the sacrifice, his replacement would have tried to have Kaladin killed anyway

**A bit extreme, but still accurate

[Solant]

I want to see his redemption. I feel like Gaz is an exercise in what happens when a character is presented as a minor antagonist, and later after removing them from the context that presented them that way initially, and is given a second chance by a protagonist without that character knowing their full history, and then allowing us to see what he does with that chance. It's super interesting to me.

[Xerun]

1 hour ago, I Am A Fish said:

No it's because Kaladin put him at risk. The system was made in a way that he had to have them killed.

Because if they weren't killed, he would be.* 

I don't think you're understanding the point I'm trying to make. Gaz was NOT the problem, the system was. That's like blaming american POW's for manufacturing Nazi weaponry. They could've refused to do it, but then they'd be dead. And the weapons would've still been produced.** 

*And while fantasy protagonists seem to find that it's an easy to sacrifice yourself, would you actually be able to do it for something as futile as this? Even if he did make the sacrifice, his replacement would have tried to have Kaladin killed anyway

**A bit extreme, but still accurate

Sorry but I think you’ve missed something with Gaz’s character. He was never someone who meekly followed orders he took genuine sadistic pleasure in making sure Kaladin would die.
 

There was no part of Kaladin that put him at risk when he first showed up, Gaz CHOSE to not give him any protection. Gaz FORCED Kaladin to run at the front. Sadeas was not part of his reasoning. It was purely Gaz’s choice. He was not a good person and he enjoyed bullying the people underneath him. 

[Xerun]

47 minutes ago, Solant said:

I want to see his redemption. I feel like Gaz is an exercise in what happens when a character is presented as a minor antagonist, and later after removing them from the context that presented them that way initially, and is given a second chance by a protagonist without that character knowing their full history, and then allowing us to see what he does with that chance. It's super interesting to me.

I’m not opposed to him being redeemed. But to see it happen offscreen would be very disappointing to me. 

[Karger]

2 hours ago, Xerun said:

Tried to kill Kaladin (or at the very least tried to create situations in which Kaladin would die), specifically encouraging them to do side carry so that he’d failed and be killed 

Refused to give Bridge 4 more men so they would be a bigger target for the Parshendi. 
 

that’s off the top of my head but I feel like he also tried to prevent things Kaladin attempted just because he could. 

11 minutes ago, Xerun said:

Sorry but I think you’ve missed something with Gaz’s character. He was never someone who meekly followed orders he took genuine sadistic pleasure in making sure Kaladin would die.

I see it as Gaz being a cog in the machine of hatred.  Yeah if he had been a better person to begin with he could have at least made things slightly better then they were but he was also in a position where they only pleasures he could take part in were the destruction of others.

10 minutes ago, Xerun said:

I’m not opposed to him being redeemed. But to see it happen offscreen would be very disappointing to me. 

Agreed actually.  That would be really unsatisfying.  You could do a lot with him just going to bridge four, apologizing for his actions and telling them that they inspire him and he wants to be a better person.

[Gisaku75]

Everything Gaz has done he has done under the threat of ending up among the bridgemen. For him, Kaladin's survival was a problem as his superiors wanted him dead. In the end he couldn't take it anymore and fled. He is a cowardly and mean person but he is not a monster. Dalinar massacred thousands of people, including his wife, and was eventually granted forgiveness. Gaz too can redeem himself.

[Nathrangking]

I suppose that it might be nice to have him completely renounce his former behavior onscreen. However, I never quite cared enough about his character to be concerned with what happened him. If he bonds a spren it would serve him right if he became an edgedancer or the like. I don't think that it would be a reward, because he is unlikely to view a need to follow a creed as a reward. This being said if he dropped off the earth I would never notice it. He was always a meh villain in my book. I never hated him. I never felt anything really. He is a scared little man who was looking after his own interests period.

[Michael Portz]

13 hours ago, bdoble97 said:

Good point I hated him in Way of Kings and never liked that fact that he started working for Shallan. I have a coworker who I picture Gaz as when I first read his character short, fat big bug eyed and bald. Cant stand the guy. 

Perhaps you should start with offering your coworker a redemption arc ... *whistleinnocently*

 

10 hours ago, Xerun said:

Sorry but I think you’ve missed something with Gaz’s character. He was never someone who meekly followed orders he took genuine sadistic pleasure in making sure Kaladin would die.
 

There was no part of Kaladin that put him at risk when he first showed up, Gaz CHOSE to not give him any protection. Gaz FORCED Kaladin to run at the front. Sadeas was not part of his reasoning. It was purely Gaz’s choice. He was not a good person and he enjoyed bullying the people underneath him. 

Hmm, iff it hadn't been Kaladin running there, then it had been somebody else of Bridge 4. Kaladin at that point was already the bridger with the highest probability of survival.

[bdoble97]

1 hour ago, Michael Portz said:

Perhaps you should start with offering your coworker a redemption arc ... *whistleinnocently*

Hahah. There's no turning back for that guy. 

[Honorless]

It's quite the pickle. What Gaz did is just enough within scale of what we're familiar with that it rankled. The scale of Sadeas or Dalinar or Odium's wrongdoings are not as... personal, they're almost statistical. But we've all known and/or been (don't lie now) that level of pettiness and meanness, well not quite that level, just close enough to be uncomfortably familiar-ish with it.

Gaz was not a good person by any means, but was that completely on him? (yes, I can hear Dalinar's responsibility quote already) His situation did not really allow him to be a good man.He was trying to be degrading, dehumanizing towards the Bridgemen to systematically break their will and to crush his own capability of empathizing because that's how the game of the Highprinces was engineered: more dead Bridgemen meant more soldiers could make it across the chasms to get the gemhearts. The whole system was a machine specializing in breaking people. Gaz was driven by his own shame: the sooner Kaladin died, the sooner he could go back to looking away and actively participating in those heinous things. He didn't think he could be a good person. He thought he didn't have the option. He's a bitter old man. And when Kaladin started to give the Bridgemen hope, it put him in a moral & mortal crisis. So he fled.

Yeah, if what you're afraid of does come to pass it would rankle at me something fierce, but at the same time I can understand him. I don't like him, but I can understand being driven by shame.

 

Man, when I first read the Way of Kings, I was seeing red on behalf of Kaladin. It's quite a good analysis of societal complicity.

 

(or who knows, have you listened to the chapters 7/8 readings? Maybe Moash would stab Gaz in the face just as he starts to speak the First Ideal too)

Edited August 10, 2020 by Honorless

[Xerun]

6 hours ago, Honorless said:

It's quite the pickle. What Gaz did is just enough within scale of what we're familiar with that it rankled. The scale of Sadeas or Dalinar or Odium's wrongdoings are not as... personal, they're almost statistical. But we've all known and/or been (don't lie now) that level of pettiness and meanness, well not quite that level, just close enough to be uncomfortably familiar-ish with it.

I guess my issue is if you take people like Sadeas and Amaram, they’re not getting offered amazing powers and godlike reputation by becoming Radiants. Whereas Gaz is being offered that by association with Shallan 
 

I get that Gaz was in a bad situation but the choices he made were never forced upon him until the end. He chose to be spiteful and bully the people underneath him. 
 

and I don’t mind him being redeemed which then allows him to become a radiant. But my biggest issue will be if it happened in the year between books And we don’t get to see him acknowledge that fact about what he did. 

[+Bzhydack]

10 minutes ago, Xerun said:

 

and I don’t mind him being redeemed which then allows him to become a radiant. But my biggest issue will be if it happened in the year between books And we don’t get to see him acknowledge that fact about what he did. 

He probably knows what he did and knows who he is - and this can be Truth, he have to speak to become Lightweaver. Honestly, I hope for reconcilation between him and Kal (and maybe whole Bridge 4). Maybe he will save Kals life?

[bdoble97]

10 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

He probably knows what he did and knows who he is - and this can be Truth, he have to speak to become Lightweaver. Honestly, I hope for reconcilation between him and Kal (and maybe whole Bridge 4). Maybe he will save Kals life?

No thank you unless he die in the porosses. Haha that's bad to say. 

[GudThymes]

48 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Honestly, I hope for reconcilation between him and Kal (and maybe whole Bridge 4). Maybe he will save Kals life?

I actually don't want this. I think it's a little overrated to have Kal reconcile with everyone who has wronged him or vice versa. That's just not how real life is, it's a lot messier. You part ways with people who have been awful to you (not trying to understate Gaz). I just got to the part where Gaz and Kal reunite in WoK and I loved how that interaction was written from both their perspectives.

 

I would much prefer Gaz work to redeem himself in his own eyes, but I think their dynamic would be better if there is always an underlying level of distrust between them but an unspoken agreement that they're trying to serve a cause higher than their personal grudges. It feels more real to me.

[The One Ring]

you could argue that he could have made the bridgemen's life better. BUT that would've made him feel attach to them, and if the bridgemen he helped die(which they definitely will before they met Kaladin), He'll feel sad and broken. And isn't that what Kal was so afraid of in WoK? That those he helped will die?

And then of course, Kaladin showed up and soon start uniting the bridgemen that's not suppose to feel happiness. Gaz's superior keep wanting to have Kal killed, and what's he suppose to do? Tell the bridgemen to keep doing it so he can be dead?

Gaz isn't truly a monster, but he is no doubt a coward. And I think it could be interesting to see him become a better person.

 

[Innovation]

19 minutes ago, Evi said:

And I think it could be interesting to see him become a better person.

 

His redemption arc would be undoubtedly interesting. Unfortunately, Moash (or Vyre) has a habit of killing characters during such arcs. I hope Gaz doesn’t fall to the same fate, and at least apologizes to the bridgemen.