Shardplate

[bdoble97]

I really hope we get more drawing like this of other shard plate. Hopefully Shallan draws Kaladin in his living plate next Adolin in his dead plate. To see the difference 

[Karger]

2 hours ago, Aminar said:

Why would the oaths be structured that way? Think like a writer. 

Because it makes more sense?  This way you have to actually do the work before you get the reward.  Also only getting plate when you figure out the meaning behind your crusade or understand the right way to finish it makes a lot more sense.  Szeth has already sworn oath four by your logic.  Why would any spren grant anything for saying you want to do a thing?  No effort or progression is involved.

1 hour ago, joesleepsalot said:

If Nale is a level 5 sky breaker as well as a herald, why doesn’t he rock living plate? Unless he simply chooses not to—— but if someone 100% has maxed out the leveling system, and if plate is based off level, then he’d have it.

Probably because it draws attention.  Nale prefers to keep things on the down low.

[dgreene196]

6 hours ago, joesleepsalot said:

If Nale is a level 5 sky breaker as well as a herald, why doesn’t he rock living plate? Unless he simply chooses not to—— but if someone 100% has maxed out the leveling system, and if plate is based off level, then he’d have it.

Also, it seems that Ancient Radiants wore their Plate almost as a symbol.  Once modern Radiants get them, it may again be a symbol.  Dead Plate definitely seems to resist Investiture, but we don't know how it affects use of Surges - does living Plate weigh anything?  Does it affect high-speed maneuvers for Windrunners?  We'll find out, probably.  Kaladin certainly could have used living Plate against that Transportation vs. Transformation Fused - it could have blocked the "stab him repeatedly in the neck" move.

As for Nale, he's a nearly immortal, nearly unstoppable Cognitive Shadow/Radiant hybrid.  I'm not sure he needs Plate to protect himself in any of the settings in which we've seen him (and probably most we may eventually see him in).  Now, if he can throw his Plate on someone else, ala Tony Stark in Ironman 3, then that would be interesting.  But I suspect this ability doesn't work like that.

[GudThymes]

2 minutes ago, dgreene196 said:

Dead Plate definitely seems to resist Investiture, but we don't know how it affects use of Surges - does living Plate weigh anything?  Does it affect high-speed maneuvers for Windrunners?  We'll find out, probably.  Kaladin certainly could have used living Plate against that Transportation vs. Transformation Fused - it could have blocked the "stab him repeatedly in the neck" move.

Even dead plate resists the surges, we see this in the original prologue where Szeth fights Gavilar. Living plate also does affect the surges, however, it does not affect the ability for a Windrunner to lash themselves. I imagine that every other surge (including adhesion) would be blocked by plate.

[Ansalem]

55 minutes ago, GudThymes said:

Even dead plate resists the surges, we see this in the original prologue where Szeth fights Gavilar. Living plate also does affect the surges, however, it does not affect the ability for a Windrunner to lash themselves. I imagine that every other surge (including adhesion) would be blocked by plate.

Presumably living plate, as far as Investiture is concerned, is a part of the Radiant themselves. So their Surges will work the same for them with or without it but someone else's plate would resist it. Living plate would also presumably be more resistant than dead plate because it's more Invested. By which I mean living plate is a manifestation of either the Radiant's or Spren Investiture while dead plate has to be Invested by an external source making it less efficient. Though it still seems to be remarkably resistant either way so the difference might never come up.

Most of that is assumption admittedly, but I think it makes the most sense given what is known about Investiture as a whole.

[joesleepsalot]

7 hours ago, Karger said:

Probably because it draws attention.  Nale prefers to keep things on the down low.

Possibly—— but he’s also openly admitted his identity to the other sky breakers, they all know his level, and by the end of Oathbringer the cat is out of the bag as far as desolations are concerned..... floating above a battlefield that literally has a physical manifestation of a Shard present, an angry bondsmith in the middle of ascending, a massive amount of fused, tens of thousands of troops, a thunderclast, and multiple unmade present all qualify (in my humble opinion) to override any false senses of modesty. 

“Nearly” unkillable doesn’t mean “unkillable”. Plus he’s well aware of where he goes if he does die. I think we haven’t seen him rock plate because Brandon simply didn’t want to have too many revealing injects in the story too soon... just my $0.02

[Karger]

1 hour ago, joesleepsalot said:

I think we haven’t seen him rock plate because Brandon simply didn’t want to have too many revealing injects in the story too soon... just my $0.02

I mean yeah that is part of the reason.  I just did not want to go meta.

1 hour ago, joesleepsalot said:

Possibly—— but he’s also openly admitted his identity to the other sky breakers, they all know his level, and by the end of Oathbringer the cat is out of the bag as far as desolations are concerned..... floating above a battlefield that literally has a physical manifestation of a Shard present, an angry bondsmith in the middle of ascending, a massive amount of fused, tens of thousands of troops, a thunderclast, and multiple unmade present all qualify (in my humble opinion) to override any false senses of modesty. 

Sure but a shardblade can be used with some level of discretion because people have them.  Normies can't manifest plate so if Nale did that everyone would know something was up.  As to floating above the battlefield he may have summoned plate when everything was happening and dismissed it later.  Either way he was at a safe distance.

[Aminar]

20 hours ago, Karger said:

Because it makes more sense?  This way you have to actually do the work before you get the reward.  Also only getting plate when you figure out the meaning behind your crusade or understand the right way to finish it makes a lot more sense.  Szeth has already sworn oath four by your logic.  Why would any spren grant anything for saying you want to do a thing?  No effort or progression is involved.

Probably because it draws attention.  Nale prefers to keep things on the down low.

All of Kaladin's oaths are about wanting to do a thing. He will protect those who cannot protect themselves. The whole point of the oaths is to bind yourself to aspirations. To gain power by wanting to change the world so that you can do so. It's entirely the opposite of doing the work to earn power. It's swearing to do the work and being given tools to make you better at doing it in return. 

[Ansalem]

2 hours ago, Aminar said:

All of Kaladin's oaths are about wanting to do a thing. He will protect those who cannot protect themselves. The whole point of the oaths is to bind yourself to aspirations. To gain power by wanting to change the world so that you can do so. It's entirely the opposite of doing the work to earn power. It's swearing to do the work and being given tools to make you better at doing it in return. 

And having it violently ripped away pretty much immediately upon failure. Actually, Kaladin almost lost Syl for failing an oath he hadn't even sworn yet. Well, I guess that's not exactly accurate, but the other way of looking at it is that he was failing oaths not directly related to the Bond because he accidentally put himself in a catch-22.

Even with how seemingly easy it is to gain the powers it's much easier to lose them. And it isn't actually that easy to get them anyway, as was shown with the Lopen at the end of OB. Just saying the words isn't enough, and swearing the oath is a huge risk all on its own because each new oath creates more avenues for failure.

Plus there's the fact that each time a Radiant swears an oath they get an instant burst of power, so unless Skybreakers are special in this one specific way it seems pretty clear they get their Plate immediately upon swearing to their Crusade.

[Karger]

11 hours ago, Aminar said:

All of Kaladin's oaths are about wanting to do a thing

Are they?  All of the Skybreaker oaths are about doing things.  I will seek justice, I will follow this code.

Kaladin is protecting people before he swore any oaths.  He only gets the words once he figures out the reasoning behind the oaths.  You can say that you have a goal any time.  It only starts to matter when you start taking real concrete steps to achieving that goal.  Brandon actually likes to talk about this(he did so in Alcatraz and during the Starsight release date).  Brandon always wanted a dragon.  However he desire lead to nothing until he realized that Magellan had all the qualities of a dragon that he wanted(speech, flight, bright colors).

[Aminar]

35 minutes ago, Karger said:

Are they?  All of the Skybreaker oaths are about doing things.  I will seek justice, I will follow this code.

Kaladin is protecting people before he swore any oaths.  He only gets the words once he figures out the reasoning behind the oaths.  You can say that you have a goal any time.  It only starts to matter when you start taking real concrete steps to achieving that goal.  Brandon actually likes to talk about this(he did so in Alcatraz and during the Starsight release date).  Brandon always wanted a dragon.  However he desire lead to nothing until he realized that Magellan had all the qualities of a dragon that he wanted(speech, flight, bright colors).

There are steps that lead to the oaths. But those steps are understanding that you want to aspire to. It would be entirely backwards from every other oath not made by a Lightweaver to have the 4th Skybreaker oath come after the crusade. And the Lightweaver oaths basically have an invisible I understand this about myself implied. They're therapy revelations. 

[Karger]

58 minutes ago, Aminar said:

It would be entirely backwards from every other oath not made by a Lightweaver to have the 4th Skybreaker oath come after the crusade

Generally actions come after the oath.  You are given understanding of a what or a why you swear the oath and then you take action.  Highspren likely care more about the action then most however.  Add to this that we know at least one skybreaker did not have plate for two decades.  They could have gotten it much sooner and just waited for the right opportunity to swear the oath.

[Aminar]

9 hours ago, Karger said:

Generally actions come after the oath.  You are given understanding of a what or a why you swear the oath and then you take action.  Highspren likely care more about the action then most however.  Add to this that we know at least one skybreaker did not have plate for two decades.  They could have gotten it much sooner and just waited for the right opportunity to swear the oath.

Or they couldn't decide on a crusade/didn't want to go on one yet. Picking what amounts to a violent eagle scout project you believe will bring more law to the world isn't always an easy process. Szeth however. The moment he has leave to go to Shinovar he's doing it. I imagine his Oath will be, "After this battle I will cleanse my homeland of injustice." He gets Plate. Saves Dalinar's life. And then he's off and we don't see him until the next book where he's tracking down the final few Stone Shamans. 

[psc92]

23 hours ago, Aminar said:

All of Kaladin's oaths are about wanting to do a thing. He will protect those who cannot protect themselves. The whole point of the oaths is to bind yourself to aspirations. To gain power by wanting to change the world so that you can do so. It's entirely the opposite of doing the work to earn power. It's swearing to do the work and being given tools to make you better at doing it in return. 

The 4th oath of the Skybreakers is about completing a specific mission with a finite goal, which is fundamentally different than all of the other oaths we have seen. "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves" isn't a mission, it doesn't have an ending. They are words to live by.

Based on this fundamental difference, it naturally follows that the mission needs to be completed for the 4th oath to be considered completed as well. And as @Karger has already laid out, all available evidence points to this being the case.

[Karger]

2 hours ago, Aminar said:

The moment he has leave to go to Shinovar he's doing it. I imagine his Oath will be, "After this battle I will cleanse my homeland of injustice." He gets Plate. Saves Dalinar's life. And then he's off and we don't see him until the next book where he's tracking down the final few Stone Shamans. 

I think @psc92 explained it better but again just wanting to do something and saying that you are going to do it does not matter.

[GudThymes]

1 hour ago, psc92 said:

The 4th oath of the Skybreakers is about completing a specific mission with a finite goal, which is fundamentally different than all of the other oaths we have seen. "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves" isn't a mission, it doesn't have an ending. They are words to live by.

I'm going to second (or is it third) this as well. I just finished my re-read of WoR and in the scene where Kal swears his third oath he says the words in his head first, but Syl tells him he must *speak* them, as soon as he says them out loud Syl is brought back and able to form as a blade.

Maybe some Spren work differently within the bonds but I highly doubt it given that the whole structure of the oaths was magically set in stone so to speak.

[RazeU]

My bigger question related to this topic is a little different. I’m curious to see if people think it is going to be common for our main characters to swear the fifth ideal (specifically in this first 5 books). Any of them? All of them? Who do you think?
 

Everyone (except possibly Dalinar) seem far far away to me. Szeth seems likeliest besides him. Or Jasnah but she’s hard to judge because of lack of information about her oaths so we can’t compare to her personality and mindset. Although her and Ivory definitely seem on the same page. I can’t really picture anyone else at this point. Which is exciting in terms of potential character growth. It’s a testament to Brandon that after 3 books these characters are still evolving. 

[Karger]

45 minutes ago, RazeU said:

My bigger question related to this topic is a little different. I’m curious to see if people think it is going to be common for our main characters to swear the fifth ideal (specifically in this first 5 books). Any of them? All of them? Who do you think?

I think at the very least Shallan, Kaladin, Szeth, and Dalinar should all do ideal five during the first five books.  Szeth doing so could prove that he is more correct then Nale, Dalinar is going to have a huge arc in book 5, Kaladin is our main and deserves a finished story arc, and I want Shallan to be a happy self actualized person.

[Master Silver]

As the technology continues to improve, I think Radiants will have to swear more ideals or get wiped out. The best counter to these Spears of the fused that take the stormlight of Radiants is plate. I don't know what swearing the 5th ideal does. But it seems like each ideal constricts the Radiants (certainly the first three do, at least for Windrunners). But maybe the last ideal gives the Radiant some autonomy to Lead and protect (for Windrunners) how they think is best. Just like Skybreakers become the embodiment of Justice. Gem hearts for the Spren or stormlight upon the 5th ideal sorta makes sense, but it seems like that would make radiants easier to kill. The blades/spren becoming mini-perpendicularities with a direct connection to the spiritual realm might be a better option though. They would become like honor blades in that way upon swearing the fifth ideal.