Fused Spears

[Solomonster]

22 minutes ago, Karger said:

Interesting but how would nicrosil block a shardblade hit?

Your correct on that, I've never heard of Nicrosil being able to block a shardblade.  Nicrosil/Aluminum alloy perhaps?  Wax has to deal with Aluminum alloyed guns, so the fused could have designed spears that have two purposes: steal stormlight using nicrosil  hemalurgy and block shardblades using aluminum.  But that's a pretty big stretch and would require an advanced understanding of metalurgy that we haven't seen the Fused possess.

[Lightspine]

Maybe metal pressed against a gemstone as part of a fabrial is invested? We've never seen anybody try and destroy a fabrial using a shardblade.

However, I'm just throwing that in as a possibility. Personally, I think that the metal is acting much like it does on Scadrial—as a focus, determining how the investure (stormlight or voidlight held in the fabrial) behaves without itself having investure. So I doubt that any fabrial could stop a shardblade, but it's definitely debatable.

 

33 minutes ago, Solomonster said:

Nicrosil/Aluminum alloy perhaps?  Wax has to deal with Aluminum alloyed guns, so the fused could have designed spears that have two purposes: steal stormlight using nicrosil  hemalurgy and block shardblades using aluminum.  But that's a pretty big stretch and would require an advanced understanding of metalurgy that we haven't seen the Fused possess.

Aluminum alloys are certainly a candidate that can't be ruled out. However, unless it's duralumin, it won't actually work hemallurgically. All the metals required for the Metallic Arts need very specific composition. If your brass has the wrong ratios of copper and zinc, it won't even function properly. A nicrosil/aluminum alloy wouldn't have both the allomantic/feruchemical/hemallurgic properties of aluminum and nicrosil, but instead have neither property. But it would still block investure since it has aluminum.

So, if we're trying to make it fit with hemalurgy, it has to be pure aluminum or duralumin. We haven't seen either of their hemalurgic uses in text, but the Coppermind says that aluminum "removes all powers" while duralumin "steels Connection and Identity." You could make an argument for either of these somehow interfering with the powers of a Radiant (since Nahel bonds function on Connection), but it's hard to see how they would drain the stormlight into the gemstone.

[+Oltux72]

4 hours ago, Karger said:

Interesting but how would nicrosil block a shardblade hit?

Presumably by being highly invested with Stormlight or Voidlight. In other words

(Scadrial)

Spoiler

by the use of Feruchemy or a Voidsurge with an equivalent ability

based on the theory that a Shard Blade will fail against highly invested objects.

And again we know that

(Scadrial)

Spoiler

alloys of aluminium and scandium share the inert qualities of aluminium

 

[Karger]

Just now, Oltux72 said:

based on the theory that a Shard Blade will fail against highly invested objects.

By that logic the metal could be almost anything.

[+Oltux72]

Just now, Karger said:

By that logic the metal could be almost anything.

The Windrunners know these spears. That they should never, ever have captured one is quite unlikely. And that Rosharan scholars under these conditions would not consider and recognise aluminium is also unlikely. That makes me doubt the simplest explanation.
Nicrosil, however, should be

(Scadrial)

Spoiler

trivial to fill at next to no cost on a planet with Highstorms, if you have access to Feruchemy

 

[Lightspine]

 

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Presumably by being highly invested with Stormlight or Voidlight. In other words

 

Stormlight and voidlight are a little unique because, when an object is invested with one of them, there is a visible sign (glowing or sucking in light, respectively). In addition, I don't think an object that's invested enough to resist a shardblade would be viable as a hemalurgic spike. There might be a better WoB out there than this one, but it stands to reason that a sufficiently invested object would resist the investure of a hemalurgic charge and prevent a spiking from working right.

Quote

Questioner

Could Nightblood theoretically be turned into a Hemalurgic spike?

Brandon Sanderson

The problem with that is that Nightblood is already invested, so it depends on your version of ' Hemalurgic spikes'. Piercing someone's body with Invested metal can have weird effects all through the Cosmere, but ripping off a piece of a person's soul using an un-Invested spike to Invest it and create one is different... we're talking about two different things, right. So there's the.... so what is a Hemalurgic spike? For instance if you've got a spike that's Invested and you stick it into a Kandra on Scadrial it will still work as an Invested Hemalurgic spike. Making a new Invested spike by ripping off a person's soul, that's a different process and a little more difficult to accomplish and requires some specialized knowledge.

Barnes & Noble B-Fest 2016 (June 11, 2016)

I stand by what I said in the prior comment: if there's any hemalurgy going on here, then the metal must be either allomantically pure aluminum or duralumin.

If we move away from the hemalurgy idea though, there's certainly plenty of other options.

[+Bzhydack]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

The Windrunners know these spears. That they should never, ever have captured one is quite unlikely. And that Rosharan scholars under these conditions would not consider and recognise aluminium is also unlikely. That makes me doubt the simplest explanation.
Nicrosil, however, should be

We dont know how many Fused have those weapons. Maybe only the best from them have this special gear, others can have just normal weapons. Its also possible that Radiants encounter them only recently, they saw it in action but not capture yet any.

[Karger]

22 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

We dont know how many Fused have those weapons. Maybe only the best from them have this special gear, others can have just normal weapons. Its also possible that Radiants encounter them only recently, they saw it in action but not capture yet any.

They seem more or less standard issue.  If Kaladin can ID them so easily and most of bridge four have them then they should have captured a few by now.

[+Oltux72]

6 hours ago, Lightspine said:

 

Stormlight and voidlight are a little unique because, when an object is invested with one of them, there is a visible sign (glowing or sucking in light, respectively). In addition, I

Hence the option of nicrosil, which allows other forms of storing Investiture.

6 hours ago, Lightspine said:

don't think an object that's invested enough to resist a shardblade would be viable as a hemalurgic spike. There might be a better WoB out there than this one, but it stands to reason that a sufficiently invested object would resist the investure of a hemalurgic charge and prevent a spiking from working right.

The Investiture ends up in the gem. Why else would it light up when the spear is in actual use? In that sense it is like the weapon Jezrien was killed with. That was yellow, but we might be looking at an alloy, even only just to save on a precious resource.

[Karger]

24 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The Investiture ends up in the gem. Why else would it light up when the spear is in actual use? In that sense it is like the weapon Jezrien was killed with. That was yellow, but we might be looking at an alloy, even only just to save on a precious resource.

But it should probably not stay in the gem.  The gem must have some kind of release or the spears would easily be overloaded by the windrunners.

[+Oltux72]

2 hours ago, Karger said:

But it should probably not stay in the gem.  The gem must have some kind of release or the spears would easily be overloaded by the windrunners.

By impaling themselves? I suppose this is theoretically possile, but not a long term viable tactic. How many Windrunners will one Fused kill? One ot two?

[Honorless]

The Fused must've been particularly happy with this invention, not just because of how useful it is but I suspect that in past Desolations, when Aimians fought alongside the Radiants, Larkin/Lanceryn must've been used against the Fused. 

But I'm also surprised to see an Investiture sucking object in Stormlight book 4. With the rarity of Larkin/Lanceryn after the Scouring of Aimia, plus

Mistborn spoilers

Spoiler

Chromium medallion tech in era 2.

I was expecting this kind of technology to only become significant in era 4, in the crossovers, with this particular ability providing a valuable edge to the Scadrians. 

 

[+Oltux72]

3 hours ago, Honorless said:

The Fused must've been particularly happy with this invention, not just because of how useful it is but I suspect that in past Desolations, when Aimians fought alongside the Radiants, Larkin/Lanceryn must've been used against the Fused. 

But I'm also surprised to see an Investiture sucking object in Stormlight book 4. With the rarity of Larkin/Lanceryn after the Scouring of Aimia, plus

Mistborn spoilers

  Hide contents

Chromium medallion tech in era 2.

I was expecting this kind of technology to only become significant in era 4, in the crossovers, with this particular ability providing a valuable edge to the Scadrians. 

 

I am afraid we have seen such technology on Roshar already twice

• when Elhokar had a fabrial developed to partially drain spheres for his party
• the weapon that killed Jezrien

And it really isn't that advanced. You need to ram it into your victim

(Scadrial)

Spoiler

compared to what a primer cube filled with Leeching can do, that is not quite so impressive.

 

[Honorless]

5 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

I am afraid we have seen such technology on Roshar already twice

• when Elhokar had a fabrial developed to partially drain spheres for his party
• the weapon that killed Jezrien

And it really isn't that advanced. You need to ram it into your victim

(Scadrial)

  Reveal hidden contents

compared to what a primer cube filled with Leeching can do, that is not quite so impressive.

 

The weapon that killed Jezrien is not just mere Investiture drainage. I was aware of the second one, but that first one, do you remember the chapter where it was in?

[+Child of Hodor]

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

The weapon that killed Jezrien is not just mere Investiture drainage. I was aware of the second one, but that first one, do you remember the chapter where it was in?

They are mentioned when Dalinar sees Highprince Hatham in Way of Kings Ch. 54 Gibletish

Quote

A faintly glowing ruby sat on each of his fingers, they'd each had some of their Stormlight drained away by a fabrial made for the purpose.

 

[Honorless]

14 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

They are mentioned when Dalinar sees Highprince Hatham in Way of Kings Ch. 54 Gibletish

Thanks! Although, not really a lot to go on there, how did you even notice this?

Edited August 14, 2020 by Honorless

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

On 8/5/2020 at 6:35 PM, Karger said:

If that were true why would the rest of the spear be necessary?  Just throw the gemstone fabrail at the person with a sling.

And

On 8/6/2020 at 5:42 AM, Bzhydack said:

So I think this fabrial has construction similar to syringe. More specificly, Gem is a syringe and aluminum spear is a needle. Basicly, spear need to pierce throu Radiant skin, because wound leak Stormlight more than Skin, and also is directed into the wound for Heal - like fluid under pressure. So in wound Stormlight is closer to "free" state, than normal is in Radiants body. And next functions aluminum spear are:

And based on the description from the text, I think this is how the Fused Fabrial Spears are constructed.

Like @Lightspine's thermodynamic analysis of the movement of stormlight suggests, I think that a Radiant pierced by a conductor connected to a fabrial that is designed to dissipate stormlight is the best explanation..

With thin lathes of aluminum applied around the perimeter and running the full length of the spear shaft, a Radiant would be hard pressed to cut through the shaft or sever the internal core.

Likewise, the spear tip is probably coated with a thin layer of aluminum except near the tip where the sharpened metal point of the conducting metal core would be exposed.

As to why it's not mentioned that the metal is aluminum, it could simply be that they haven't retrieved one yet for analysis. It might be a priority in Odium's army to retrieve fallen spears, just like it would be a priority to retrieve a dead shardblade or plate to keep it from falling into the enemies hands.

I think it's too early to know what type of metal would make up the core of the spear, but with Navani's chapter opening TED talks on fabrial science we might get a better idea soon.

One possible improvement to the Fused spear would be to combine the investiture draining fabrial with a painrial, so instead of just dissipating the stormlight it could be used to further incapacitate the Radiant. Yowch.

Edited August 13, 2020 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine
Typos, always typos

[Karger]

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

By impaling themselves? I suppose this is theoretically possile, but not a long term viable tactic. How many Windrunners will one Fused kill? One ot two?

More like what does the fused do if it manages to defeat two windrunners?

20 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Like @Lightspine's thermodynamic analysis of the movement of stormlight suggests, I think that a Radiant pierced by a conductor connected to a fabrial that is designed to dissipate stormlight is the best explanation..

What happens if the tip gets damaged though?  That happens to spears fairly frequently.  Also I worry that you might compromise the integrity of the haft.  Still it makes a manner of sense.

[+Oltux72]

25 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Likewise, the spear tip is probably coated with a thin layer of aluminum except near the tip where the sharpened metal point of the conducting metal core would be exposed.

Or the spear uses the technology of half-shards
.At this point we lack information.

 

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

More like what does the fused do if it manages to defeat two windrunners?Change the gem or exchange the spear.

Change the gem or exchange the spear. A weapon does not need to be perfect. Good enough will do.

[Karger]

7 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Change the gem or exchange the spear. A weapon does not need to be perfect. Good enough will do.

That requires the fused to always have more gemstones then the radiants they are killing.

[+Oltux72]

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

That requires the fused to always have more gemstones then the radiants they are killing.

No, there is a point where planning for an exceptional problem under exceptional circumstances just becomes a waste.

[Karger]

3 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

No, there is a point where planning for an exceptional problem under exceptional circumstances just becomes a waste.

How is it exceptional?  You can only kill as many radiants as you have gemstones for.  Unless you have some way of removing stormlight from a gemstone a radiant could just fill it and then leave you with a normal spear.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

What happens if the tip gets damaged though?  That happens to spears fairly frequently.  Also I worry that you might compromise the integrity of the haft.  Still it makes a manner of sense.

The metal conducting core I would imagine would have a much smaller diameter than in my diagram, like a 12 Guage wire, and with soulcasting being employed, you could have a small replaceable conducting tip that could screw into the spear head until it makes contact with the meral core, easily replaceable.

37 minutes ago, Karger said:

How is it exceptional?  You can only kill as many radiants as you have gemstones for.  Unless you have some way of removing stormlight from a gemstone a radiant could just fill it and then leave you with a normal spear.

Isn't it implied in the text that the gemstone fabrial in the spear has two functions, 1) draining the stormlight from the Radiant and 2) dissipating that stormlight?

Why would they need extra gems?

Edited August 13, 2020 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine

[Innovation]

Perhaps the gem has many imperfections. The Fabrial drains the Stormlight into the sphere, which dissipates the the Stormlight quickly due to the imperfections in the cut. 

[Lightspine]

13 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

The Investiture ends up in the gem. Why else would it light up when the spear is in actual use? In that sense it is like the weapon Jezrien was killed with. That was yellow, but we might be looking at an alloy, even only just to save on a precious resource.

I agree with you here, I just don't think this description matches up with hemalurgy.

I'm a little confused by your theory now. Are you saying that the nicrosil allows storage of stormlight/voidlight because it can be used as a metalmind for investure, and that's how it blocks shardblades? Wouldn't that require a feruchemist?

2 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

And

And based on the description from the text, I think this is how the Fused Fabrial Spears are constructed.

Like @Lightspine's thermodynamic analysis of the movement of stormlight suggests, I think that a Radiant pierced by a conductor connected to a fabrial that is designed to dissipate stormlight is the best explanation..

With thin lathes of aluminum applied around the perimeter and running the full length of the spear shaft, a Radiant would be hard pressed to cut through the shaft or sever the internal core.

Likewise, the spear tip is probably coated with a thin layer of aluminum except near the tip where the sharpened metal point of the conducting metal core would be exposed.

As to why it's not mentioned that the metal is aluminum, it could simply be that they haven't retrieved one yet for analysis. It might be a priority in Odium's army to retrieve fallen spears, just like it would be a priority to retrieve a dead shardblade or plate to keep it from falling into the enemies hands.

I think it's too early to know what type of metal would make up the core of the spear, but with Navani's chapter opening TED talks on fabrial science we might get a better idea soon.

One possible improvement to the Fused spear would be to combine the investiture draining fabrial with a painrial, so instead of just dissipating the stormlight it could be used to further incapacitate the Radiant. Yowch.

That makes a lot of sense! Seems achievable with a little soulcasting. That painrial idea is really frightening.

Also, since you're not relying on the hemalurgy idea, they could be using an alloy of aluminum that's more physically robust. That could explain why it's not identified.

2 hours ago, Karger said:

What happens if the tip gets damaged though?  That happens to spears fairly frequently.  Also I worry that you might compromise the integrity of the haft.  Still it makes a manner of sense.

Even if the tip gets damaged, it would still work since the "conducting" metal spans the length of the spear. Unless the tip is deformed in such a way that none of the conducting metal is at the surface, it should be fine.