The Vorin Church

[Firespir]

The Vorin church is pretty unstable. The magnitude of Dalinar's defection as well as the events of OB were pretty rocky for them. Now their Gods have revealed themselves and they have a lot to say, interviewed by non other than Jasnah, the infamous heretic. Not only will they shatter all myths and legends the church is trying to pass as cannon, they've also lived alongside men for so long and witnessed a lot of the atrocities that are probably forgotten/buried. I can't imagine the things being said by the Hearls will be taken as anything other than blasphemy. The whole belief system will crumble. What of the callings and safe hands and everything else?

As much as they try to pass for revered, obedient herd the Church has been on a steady rise in reclaiming it's power and authority for the past several hundred years. Yes, they took a great hit after the Hierocracy and was all but brought down to slavery, but when we look at things objectively is it really so? Are the ardents really this timid group of people whose role is to simply enlighten, guide and educate as everyone seems to think. Sure they can't own wealth or property and are merely considered as advisors but that seems to be merely a bluff, a facade.

They have infiltrated society on every level and have exclusive rights to vast amounts of knowledge. They hold the ultimate right/secret to soulcasting, they are practically close to every lighteyes of significant status being in on all political dynamics. They hold a firm grip on the majority of intellectuals and scientists (we rarely see an educated person who's not an ardent), readng writing, sword fighting, horseback riding etc. are just a few of the skills they have access to, and they are easily corruptible (proof the Aesudant fiasco in WoR).They excommunicated Dalinar Kholin, considered the strongest, most dangerous person on Roshar, without consulting anyone and without considering any backlash, such is their authority. Even Dalinar himself was sort of tiptoeing around the ardents at some point. 

So, what happens next?

I think that it's inevitable that the Church we know collapses and there's a division, a Schism. God is not god and is dead, the Heralds are simple humans, yes, powerful and ancient, but still humans, now crazy and flawed. The King of the Heralds is dead, more dead than usual at least. This doesn't speak divine to me and won't go without consequences. They are in a perfect position for a move, so will the majority of the ardents turn to a new God in the face of Odium, thus providing a much needed technological boost to the other side or will they separate as an independent force? I think the former is more likely and makes much more sense. New divinity to serve that offers great temptations and a chance to show their slave masters who's who. Sort of like a parallel to the parsh when we put it that way. 

What do you guys think?

[Diomedes]

16 minutes ago, Firespir said:

I think that it's inevitable that the Church we know collapses and there's a division, a Schism. God is not god and is dead, the Heralds are simple humans, yes, powerful and ancient, but still humans, now crazy and flawed. The King of the Heralds is dead, more dead than usual at least. This doesn't speak divine to me and won't go without consequences. They are in a perfect position for a move, so will the majority of the ardents turn to a new God in the face of Odium, thus providing a much needed technological boost to the other side or will they separate as an independent force? I think the former is more likely and makes much more sense. New divinity to serve that offers great temptations and a chance to show their slave masters who's who. Sort of like a parallel to the parsh when we put it that way. 

What do you guys think?

I guess they go over to Odium by bastardizing their own faith in service of Odium much like the Sons of "Honor". Jasnah the Heretic is Queen, Dalinar (likewise a heretic) is commanding the Raiants with "false" spren as the SoH call them. I guess Restares is an Ardent high up in the church who will lead the majority of the faith to Odium.

[Karger]

2 hours ago, Firespir said:

So, what happens next?

The better question might be "what does not happen next."  During times of religious turmoil people tend to try pretty much everything.  New religions will pop up.  Others will try and return to the original simplicity.  Still others will have different ideas about what the original simplicity was.  This will go on for a generation or two until something loosely resembling a status quo picks up again.

Edited August 5, 2020 by Karger

[+Oltux72]

3 hours ago, Firespir said:

The Vorin church is pretty unstable. The magnitude of Dalinar's defection as well as the events of OB were pretty rocky for them. Now their Gods have revealed themselves and they have a lot to say, interviewed by non other than Jasnah, the infamous heretic. Not only will they shatter all myths and legends the church is trying to pass as cannon, they've also lived alongside men for so long and witnessed a lot of the atrocities that are probably forgotten/buried. I can't imagine the things being said by the Hearls will be taken as anything other than blasphemy. The whole belief system will crumble. What of the callings and safe hands and everything else?

I am quite sure the church will hear nothing about them. It is totally unclear how the reaction to imprisoning the actual Heralds would be. And the coalition and Jasnah have no interest in damaging organized religion right now.

3 hours ago, Firespir said:

So, what happens next?

Their greatest theological problem is a Desolation. They operated on the premise that the time of Desolations is over. Dalinar is one madman. People claiming to be Heralds cannot be new either. All that can be explained away. Voidbringers - things enslaving and killing you tend to be taken as real.

 

[Firespir]

3 hours ago, Diomedes said:

I guess they go over to Odium by bastardizing their own faith in service of Odium much like the Sons of "Honor"... I guess Restares is an Ardent high up in the church who will lead the majority of the faith to Odium.

An interesting possibility. It never occurred to me that the SoH might just be a cult within the actual church. Although Amaram seemed like a high ranking SoH member but didn't quite strike me as very reverent in terms of religion. 

 

2 hours ago, Karger said:

The better question might be "what does not happen next."  During times of religious turmoil people tend to try pretty much everything.  New religions will pop up.  Others will try and return to the original simplicity.  Still others will have different ideas about what the original simplicity was.  This will go on for a generation or two until something loosely resembling a status quo picks up again.

There will surely be several smaller groups each with it's own agenda, but I think a core will remain just with a new focus. 

 

27 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

I am quite sure the church will hear nothing about them. It is totally unclear how the reaction to imprisoning the actual Heralds would be. And the coalition and Jasnah have no interest in damaging organized religion right now.

Aha, so you think that things will be tucked away. I doubt they would have the ability to keep everything a secret really. As I said above, ardents are everywhere. I can at least see Dalianr having a conversation with Kadash regarding their previous quarrels. They seem to have been pretty close before. I could even see him trying to mend fences with the church's authorities by presenting the Heralds as a proof etc.

Imprisoning though? Some people would certainly have the desire to do that but I doubt that will happen. Also we don't know what abilities the Heralds actually still posses, it might not even be possible.

21 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Their greatest theological problem is a Desolation. They operated on the premise that the time of Desolations is over. Dalinar is one madman. People claiming to be Heralds cannot be new either. All that can be explained away. Voidbringers - things enslaving and killing you tend to be taken as real.

Yeah, that is a problem as well. More to the above point then. Even if they never hear anything of the Heralds, which I highly highly doubt, the situation still remains. Their whole system of beliefs is being seriously challenged. Still it leaves room for assumptions and guesses. When your Gods appear and directly disprove the bigger part of your doctrine that's something else entirely.

I firmly believe the church was intentionally setting it's position in such a way that it could climb back to levels of absolute power, not in a swift coup d'etat way, but rather slowly, by continuously stripping people outside of it's organisation from tools of influence and power. They haven't exactly come to censoring knowledge and information but are awfully close to it anyway. So, all this could easily be the match that lit the fire.

[Diomedes]

1 hour ago, Firespir said:

lthough Amaram seemed like a high ranking SoH member but didn't quite strike me as very reverent in terms of religion

He was . He wanted to restore the classical strength of the Vorin church. 

[Solant]

Between Jasnah taking the throne and Dalinar  being excommunicated for lack of a better word, i can see any heralds present with the coalition being declared imposters and all the info they share proclaimed blasphemy by the church if it interferes with their message.

[+Oltux72]

On 05/08/2020 at 6:56 PM, Firespir said:

Aha, so you think that things will be tucked away. I doubt they would have the ability to keep everything a secret really. As I said above, ardents are everywhere.

The real secret is that Wit/Hoid confirmed that those people really are the Heralds. Other than that you have a few sick people who occasionally claim that they are Heralds. There is quite a likelihood that Vorin people have jokes about people claiming to be Heralds, just like we have jokes about people claiming to be Napoleon or Jesus.

You just let it be known that one of them has a Shard Blade yet kept dark eyes and Jasnah is investigating that.

On 05/08/2020 at 6:56 PM, Firespir said:

I can at least see Dalianr having a conversation with Kadash regarding their previous quarrels. They seem to have been pretty close before. I could even see him trying to mend fences with the church's authorities by presenting the Heralds as a proof etc.

He would have to admit that he kept Heralds locked up and in an asylum. That may not be the best move.

On 05/08/2020 at 6:56 PM, Firespir said:

Imprisoning though? Some people would certainly have the desire to do that but I doubt that will happen. Also we don't know what abilities the Heralds actually still posses, it might not even be possible.

Taln stayed in his cell. You need not throw them into a dungeon. They will stay in Urithiru. They get an honor guard/wardens.  Without their Blades they cannot leave.

On 05/08/2020 at 6:56 PM, Firespir said:

Yeah, that is a problem as well. More to the above point then. Even if they never hear anything of the Heralds, which I highly highly doubt, the situation still remains. Their whole system of beliefs is being seriously challenged. Still it leaves room for assumptions and guesses. When your Gods appear and directly disprove the bigger part of your doctrine that's something else entirely.

Which bigger part? Aharietiam hasn't been as final as assumed. The rest is still open. The revelation about Honor being dead is technically for now hearsay.

On 05/08/2020 at 8:40 PM, Diomedes said:

He was . He wanted to restore the classical strength of the Vorin church. 

Is that a religious or a political/social goal?

[Rorzikel]

On 8/5/2020 at 8:34 AM, Firespir said:

the Heralds are simple humans, yes, powerful and ancient, but still humans, now crazy and flawed.

Eh. Not even Brandon considers them to be human.

Quote

Questioner

So, what we see at the end, with the Unmade, and it seems like Jezrien, getting trapped in gems. Is that basically possible, because, they have been, particularly in the case of the Heralds, infused with so much Investiture that they're basically being trapped in the gems instead of Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

They're not human anymore, yeah. 

Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017)

They’re reincarnating immortals who have been alive for about as long as humans on Earth have had writing. They haven’t even slept in thousands of years according to Ash.

Quote

The ripping sensation finally ended. So abruptly that—for the first time in thousands of years—Ash fell unconscious.

To be blunt, the average Parshendi is far less alien to ordinary humans than the Heralds.

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Taln stayed in his cell. You need not throw them into a dungeon. They will stay in Urithiru. They get an honor guard/wardens.  Without their Blades they cannot leave.

I don’t think they’re picking up that Jasnah is the person you’re referring to as possibly holding Taln and Ash against their will.

[Firespir]

9 hours ago, MyrmidonOfAchilles said:

Eh. Not even Brandon considers them to be human.

I might have not articulated my point very well here. What I wanted to say was that in their core they are humans, in the sense that anyone could become like them given the circumstances which is not very heavenly. Sure they are very powerful and ancient and all of that but given their current state they don't exactly sparkle divine. 

15 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

He would have to admit that he kept Heralds locked up and in an asylum. That may not be the best move.

If your'e referring to Taln, I don't think that counts. No one knew at the time he was even a Herald and I'm sure he's not holding a grudge, provided he even remembers.

 

15 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Which bigger part? Aharietiam hasn't been as final as assumed. The rest is still open. The revelation about Honor being dead is technically for now hearsay.

Well, how about the part where Honor didn't create all life on Roshar and the humans actually invaded it and where Odium was their original God. Also, provided they are at least a bit Cosmere aware, they may also know that Honor is not exactly God in the sense that it's generally accepted. Add all the other nonsense, like safe hands, prayer burning, the callings and segregation and that paints a pretty good picture.

[Ansalem]

23 hours ago, Firespir said:

I might have not articulated my point very well here. What I wanted to say was that in their core they are humans, in the sense that anyone could become like them given the circumstances which is not very heavenly. Sure they are very powerful and ancient and all of that but given their current state they don't exactly sparkle divine. 

The same can be said for Honor, Odium, and all other "Gods" in the Cosmere. Anyone can become Odium given the circumstance Rayse was in when he became Odium. I want to avoid other series spoilers just in case so no details, but we have seen that happen onscreen more than once in the Cosmere where a normal person becomes a God.

The Heralds are more like Splinters although I'm not sure if they technically count as such. And it shouldn't be that difficult to prove they're at least immortal, if not specifically that they're Heralds. Just don't let them eat for a month or 10. See if they ever sleep. Things like that.

If Jasnah cares to prove it, she should be able to devise a way without too much trouble. She might not bother though since she personally already knows for certain they're the real Heralds.

And I'm pretty sure the Stormfather can just tell people. Pretty much everyone on Roshar would just take his word for it.

[Innovation]

1 minute ago, Ansalem said:

The Heralds are more like Splinters although I'm not sure if they technically count as such. And it shouldn't be that difficult to prove they're at least immortal, if not specifically that they're Heralds. Just don't let them eat for a month or 10. See if they ever sleep. Things like that.

They are Cognitive Shadows, I believe. We see Cognitive Shadows worshiped a lot in the Cosmere. 

[Ansalem]

2 minutes ago, Innovation said:

They are Cognitive Shadows, I believe. We see Cognitive Shadows worshiped a lot in the Cosmere. 

Yeah, you're right. I was literally just reading the WoB that said that for a completely different reason when you said that.

Weird things happen sometimes. lol

[Singer]

I wonder if the Vorin church might not largely put their finger in their ears and say "la la I'm not listening!" Anytime anyone brings up those heralds. A schism seems likely, with some finding their belief system crumbling, while others find alternative explanations for absolutely everything they are presented. 

Humans don't handle cognitive dissonance well, so I suspect the Ardents and church in general will do some fantastic mental gymnastics to find someway for the world and their beliefs to align. I don't k ow if it'll be a big part of RoW or not, but it would make for some interesting subplot word building!

[+Oltux72]

On 10/08/2020 at 0:01 AM, Firespir said:

Well, how about the part where Honor didn't create all life on Roshar

Embarrassing but not really a central part in their religion. And they already have the basic theological issue of monotheism, if he is allmighty, why the Desolations?

On 10/08/2020 at 0:01 AM, Firespir said:

and the humans actually invaded it

Man always came from the Tranquiline halls. And invasions are not a necessarily negative thing to the Vorin mind.

On 10/08/2020 at 0:01 AM, Firespir said:

and where Odium was their original God. Also, provided they are at least a bit Cosmere aware, they may also know that Honor is not exactly God in the sense that it's generally accepted.

He always had adversaries in their religion. Yes, that is a problem of logic, but it is not a new problem.

On 10/08/2020 at 0:01 AM, Firespir said:

Add all the other nonsense, like safe hands, prayer burning, the callings and segregation and that paints a pretty good picture.

You are fulfilling Honor's last will, not that much of a problem.

Much of their religion is confirmed.

• Honor was real
• The Heralds are real
• The Voidbringers are real (them showing up is a problem for modern Vorinism - not for fundamental theology)
• Becoming good at your job helps the war effort - the callings do have a rational base

The big issue is Aharietiam. Do you see it as a betrayal, or as the Heralds doing what needed to be done to save Roshar from a worsening cycle of Desolations? Or both?

[Karger]

5 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Embarrassing but not really a central part in their religion

It kind of is.  He who transforms is his title because among other things he soulcast the world.

6 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

And they already have the basic theological issue of monotheism, if he is allmighty, why the Desolations?

His pure goodness created pure evil.  Humans were created because we have free will and thus total good can increase.

7 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Man always came from the Tranquiline halls. And invasions are not a necessarily negative thing to the Vorin mind.

How about them currently being destroyed?  Their entire afterlife at steps you take to get to it is based around reclaiming what they now have confirmation no longer exists.

[+Oltux72]

46 minutes ago, Karger said:

It kind of is.  He who transforms is his title because among other things he soulcast the world.

Well, he still kind of transformed it. The theory of evolution has not despite contemporary fears destroyed the Abrahamic religions.

46 minutes ago, Karger said:

His pure goodness created pure evil.  Humans were created because we have free will and thus total good can increase.

But why were the Voidbringers created? Or the Parshendi for that matter? And what about Cultivation?

46 minutes ago, Karger said:

How about them currently being destroyed?  Their entire afterlife at steps you take to get to it is based around reclaiming what they now have confirmation no longer exists.

Have they learned that yet? The Eila stele talks about the state of affairs 6000 years ago. Yes, it is an issue. But one only rarified people will consider. You can always say that they go into some spiritual ideal of the Tranquiline Halls. Human beings are extremely good at finding rationalizations.

The practical day-to-day operation of Vorinism is kind of strengthened. Voidbringers are an observable reality now and the devotionaries can realistically claim that they have been continuing the work of the Heralds.

Many of their teachings, like the preponderance of lighteyes, have some basis in reality (it irks Kaladin - not a theologician). Even Jasnah and Dalinar will have to call the Knights who caused the Recreance vile traitors, if they wish to have any hope of attracting spren to bond.

[Gilphon]

So, with the focus on Dalinar getting excommunicated from the Church last book, I have to imagine that we'll get a Church-based antagonist this book. Hopefully, Restares, because I believe the theory about him being an Ardent and he needs to be tied into the plot somehow. 

I do not, however, imagine this plot thread continuing in a meaningful way after this book. It seems like Vorinism is on the verge of breaking against the rocks of reality, so they can only be taken seriously as antagonists for so long.

[Ansalem]

2 hours ago, Gilphon said:

So, with the focus on Dalinar getting excommunicated from the Church last book, I have to imagine that we'll get a Church-based antagonist this book. Hopefully, Restares, because I believe the theory about him being an Ardent and he needs to be tied into the plot somehow. 

I do not, however, imagine this plot thread continuing in a meaningful way after this book. It seems like Vorinism is on the verge of breaking against the rocks of reality, so they can only be taken seriously as antagonists for so long.

I think you're seriously underestimating the staying power of a religion after it's been proven beyond doubt to be wrong. People are remarkably good at believing things that are provably wrong.