Jasnah's Atheism is Idiotic

[GudThymes]

On 8/5/2020 at 1:13 AM, Szeth_lz said:

So why is she still an atheist? What is her thinking, her ideology? Im sorry if it has been discussed before, but i would really like to know what you all think, cause i really can't make any sense of her atheism. It's defined as ' disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods', but as i mentioned earlier, Gods do exist in Roshar.  

To answer this I think we have to first identify what the criteria for being a "god" is. Christianity as it exists on Earth generally agrees that "God" is Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnibenevolent. There are many many many philosophical treatises and arguments about this that go into a lot of detail. In other words though, it would mean that God is all good, all powerful, and all loving. I believe that the Almighty of Vorinism is akin to the Judeo/Christian "God" and would agree that the Almighty is these things.

The reader, knowing what we know, can say that the Almighty is not God. He (Tanavast) was a mortal that gained power of the God that made him almost a god. So in this case, Jasnah's atheism makes sense, the very real "deity" that exists on their planet is not Omniscient Omnipotent or Omnibenevelont. The quote from Dalinar earlier in the thread will agree with me on this, he comes to this conclusion about the Almighty.

 

Now, you mentioned that Gods do exist on Roshar. I would not say that this is the case. I would say they are supremely powerful beings that have transcended mortality and are able to wield the powers of creation but that does not make them a "God". That's my personal philosophy, and I think that many others would agree.

There are arguments to be made about Adolnalsium and whether he/she/it/they were a true "God", however, I would say that Ado does not fit the criteria for the being "God".

[Aminar]

4 hours ago, GudThymes said:

To answer this I think we have to first identify what the criteria for being a "god" is. Christianity as it exists on Earth generally agrees that "God" is Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnibenevolent. There are many many many philosophical treatises and arguments about this that go into a lot of detail. In other words though, it would mean that God is all good, all powerful, and all loving. I believe that the Almighty of Vorinism is akin to the Judeo/Christian "God" and would agree that the Almighty is these things.

The reader, knowing what we know, can say that the Almighty is not God. He (Tanavast) was a mortal that gained power of the God that made him almost a god. So in this case, Jasnah's atheism makes sense, the very real "deity" that exists on their planet is not Omniscient Omnipotent or Omnibenevelont. The quote from Dalinar earlier in the thread will agree with me on this, he comes to this conclusion about the Almighty.

 

Now, you mentioned that Gods do exist on Roshar. I would not say that this is the case. I would say they are supremely powerful beings that have transcended mortality and are able to wield the powers of creation but that does not make them a "God". That's my personal philosophy, and I think that many others would agree.

There are arguments to be made about Adolnalsium and whether he/she/it/they were a true "God", however, I would say that Ado does not fit the criteria for the being "God".

I think it's even in the root of Adonalsium's name that he isn't a god. The name clearly has roots in Adonis. Roots that, if I remember right, were also part of Elantris's original version. I suspect he was some kind of ideal very powerful man, more of a Jesus figure than a god. 

[GudThymes]

4 minutes ago, Aminar said:

I think it's even in the root of Adonalsium's name that he isn't a god. The name clearly has roots in Adonis

I'm pretty sure Adonalsium comes from Judaism's Adonai -- one of the names of God that translates to "my lord". My personal favorite is Hashem which translates as "the name" 

[Weltall]

On 8/5/2020 at 6:09 AM, Quantus said:

Anyone here ever read the Dresden Files?  Im reminded of the Agnostic Knight of the Cross

Sanya is amazing. Especially the way that he shows up in literally the nick of time constantly (because divine intervention) and he always brushes it off as 'must be a coincidence'. xD

Of course, this is also a setting where pretty much every god, monster, spirit, mythical creature and loathsome betentacled horror from beyond rational spacetime is equally real, so nobody really has a monopoly on The Truth one way or the other.

7 hours ago, Frustration said:

The God Beyond is what would actually count but his exsistance is intentionally kept from being cannon, although so is his non-existence. The canon is very agnostic.

Yeah, pretty much this when you're using that standard to define a capital-g God. Brandon has been clear that he's never going to clarify whether it does, because he wants a setting in which the various beliefs of his characters can all be valid, and where the readers can approach the work from different perspectives and also be equally right.

Relevant WoBs for anyone interested:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/117-boskone-54/#e1695

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/332-jordancon-2018/#e9596

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31-arcanum-unbounded-release-party/#e1733

Edited August 7, 2020 by Weltall

[cfphelps]

On 8/5/2020 at 4:13 AM, Szeth_lz said:

In the world of Roshar, where there is magic and all and proven existence of beings such as Odium, Nightwatcher and other entities which may well be easily be termed God, i really can't see any basis for Jasnah's atheism. It's idiotic, illogical. 

I mean, if this was our world, where such magical elements and godly entities aren't found, being atheist is simply preventing oneself from believing in the 'presumed' or 'mythical' existence of God and not needing any sort of belief system to keep one going, which has logical grounds all right. But in a world like Roshar, well, there are clearly Gods. They exist. They existed. They have powers beyond contemplation. We can't even directly look at their full form or their full being directly (as in the case of Odium, of course). Also, the presumed 'good' god, the Almighty, clearly existed too. 

So why is she still an atheist? What is her thinking, her ideology? Im sorry if it has been discussed before, but i would really like to know what you all think, cause i really can't make any sense of her atheism. It's defined as ' disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods', but as i mentioned earlier, Gods do exist in Roshar.  

Don't get me wrong, I do like her as a character, she's badass( although a bit too cocky sometimes), but this one thing just puts me off.

The Vorin religion is the main one that she is most popular in rejecting. They are worshiping the Almighty and sending him prayers when he's long dead and gone. Is she really wrong? 

[Procrastination]

Honestly?? Just because you don’t believe the same things that Jasnah does doesn’t mean you have to say her beliefs are illogical. When you look at the Shards, like Honor, (the Almighty), they really aren’t gods.

[earthexile]

I am an atheist, and I would remain so even if proof of God was presented to me, depending on the God. If it was the God from the religion I used to belong to, I would not worship it or participate in its rituals. I would feel morally responsible to oppose it at every turn. The God of the Christians could appear in my apartment right now and prove to me that it's real, but that would not make me a Christian. I would be a worshipper of no gods. Atheist.

[ConfusedCow]

Perhaps to Jasnah an atheist is only a person who believes that any god who needs dominion and worship from lesser mortals does not deserve it.

[+Harrycrapper]

To Jasnah's credit, she has been told that God exists, but that the beings masquerading as gods killed him. If God can be killed, is he really God?

[Shadesmar13]

We already know that the Shards (which they call God) Are not actually gods, they are fragments of God. So maybe Jasnah has an inkling of that. 

Also, something I really like, is that at some point, Jasnah says something along the lines of, "I know I'm a heretic, but I won't try to convince you to be."

[ScadrianTank]

On 28.05.2021 at 8:52 PM, Harrycrapper said:

If God can be killed, is he really God?

That is the question of the cosmere, isn't it? If a being or a force created all of existence, not calling it God because it died seems a bit too proud, IMHO. 

[Bejarden]

 

6 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

That is the question of the cosmere, isn't it? If a being or a force created all of existence, not calling it God because it died seems a bit too proud, IMHO. 

Something can be immensely powerful and not g-d

[Weltall]

8 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

That is the question of the cosmere, isn't it? If a being or a force created all of existence, not calling it God because it died seems a bit too proud, IMHO. 

You need to back this one up a step though, because we don't know for a fact that Adonalsium 'created all of existence', only that people believe he did. Brandon has been deliberately ambiguous on this topic just as he has about the existence or non-existence of the (God) Beyond and we know those are things he's never going to resolve. At most, we know for certainty that Adonalsium created the Rosharan System but that doesn't necessarily make him what Jasnah would consider a God or worthy of worship.

[ScadrianTank]

1 hour ago, Weltall said:

At most, we know for certainty that Adonalsium created the Rosharan System

1 hour ago, Weltall said:

because we don't know for a fact that Adonalsium 'created all of existence',

Quote

And so, the Dawnshards. The four primal Commands that created all things.

And because all Investiture originates with Shards, and by extension, with Adonalsium...

1 hour ago, Weltall said:

but that doesn't necessarily make him what Jasnah would consider a God or worthy of worship.

There is nothing that would make Jasnah or someone like her consider a thing worthy of worship. 

[Weltall]

2 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

And because all Investiture originates with Shards, and by extension, with Adonalsium...

We don't know for certain that what the Sleepless claim about the Dawnshards being used to create all things is in fact the case, we only know that they believe it to be the case. But even accepting for purposes of argument that the belief is accurate, all things in the Cosmere =/= all of existence.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Weltall

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

And because all Investiture originates with Shards, and by extension, with Adonalsium...

There is nothing that would make Jasnah or someone like her consider a thing worthy of worship. 

Did the investiture originate with Adonalsium or Adonalsium from the investiture?

[Stranger]

11 hours ago, Frustration said:

Did the investiture originate with Adonalsium or Adonalsium from the investiture?

All Investiture was from Adonalsium, according to this WoB.

 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8605

Spoiler

Overlord Jebus

Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. 

Overlord Jebus

Are they aware of that Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things.

Overlord Jebus

So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm

On 8/7/2020 at 5:45 PM, GudThymes said:

I'm pretty sure Adonalsium comes from Judaism's Adonai -- one of the names of God that translates to "my lord". My personal favorite is Hashem which translates as "the name" 

The name Adonalsium is derived from a Hebrew name for God, Adonai (literally, "my master").

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/183-stormlight-three-update-6/#e3914

Spoiler

grampipon

Is Adonalsium taken from the Hebrew words for God, Adonai?

Brandon Sanderson

It is.

Stormlight Three Update #6 (Feb. 28, 2017)

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Stranger
added another quote

[Bejarden]

4 minutes ago, Stranger said:

The name Adonalsium is derived from a Hebrew name for God, Adonai (literally, "my master").

 

It’s more Adon olum (Master forever) 

I think

 

[Frustration]

3 hours ago, Stranger said:

All Investiture was from Adonalsium, according to this WoB.

 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8605

  Reveal hidden contents

Overlord Jebus

Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. 

Overlord Jebus

Are they aware of that Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things.

Overlord Jebus

So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm

The name Adonalsium is derived from a Hebrew name for God, Adonai (literally, "my master").

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/183-stormlight-three-update-6/#e3914

  Reveal hidden contents

grampipon

Is Adonalsium taken from the Hebrew words for God, Adonai?

Brandon Sanderson

It is.

Stormlight Three Update #6 (Feb. 28, 2017)

 

Investiture if left alone will become self aware.

Spoiler

Argent

You've said that Investiture tends to develop sapience on its own. Is this a function of the amount of Investiture alone (i.e. any pile of Investiture large enough will develop sapience eventually), or does the process require extra effort (e.g. a Command from an Awakener, an action by a Shard, etc.)?

Brandon Sanderson

Under the right circumstances, a pile of investiture will eventually become self-aware. But there is no specific timing. The more investiture clumped together, the more likely--and the closer to human-level intelligence it is likely to obtain.

Of course, if you leave matter alone long enough (on a galactic scale) it will eventually end up becoming sapient too. So this isn't that different. (Well, okay, it is.)

Boogalyhu34

Are humans already sapient and intelligent because their Spiritual DNA tell their innate investiture what connections to make or what weird soul pattern to go into.

Brandon Sanderson

Let's RAFO that for now.

Stormlight Three Update #4 (Oct. 4, 2016)

 

So, did Adonalsium just spring into exsistence?

Or was there a ton of investiture around and Adonalsium was the mind that formed because of it?

[Procrastination]

On 8/5/2020 at 11:57 AM, robardin said:

Well it's like that story that Hoid alluded to, yeah? That implied that Adonalsium allowed himself to be Splintered in order to experience things in his own universe in a multiplicity of ways and POVs. Kind of like that story by Andy Weir, The Egg, from before he wrote "The Martian", the work that made him famous.

This sounds a lot like the One, (the one the shoemaker in Iri taught the beggar about)!!