Jasnah's Atheism is Idiotic

[Szeth_lz]

In the world of Roshar, where there is magic and all and proven existence of beings such as Odium, Nightwatcher and other entities which may well be easily be termed God, i really can't see any basis for Jasnah's atheism. It's idiotic, illogical. 

I mean, if this was our world, where such magical elements and godly entities aren't found, being atheist is simply preventing oneself from believing in the 'presumed' or 'mythical' existence of God and not needing any sort of belief system to keep one going, which has logical grounds all right. But in a world like Roshar, well, there are clearly Gods. They exist. They existed. They have powers beyond contemplation. We can't even directly look at their full form or their full being directly (as in the case of Odium, of course). Also, the presumed 'good' god, the Almighty, clearly existed too. 

So why is she still an atheist? What is her thinking, her ideology? Im sorry if it has been discussed before, but i would really like to know what you all think, cause i really can't make any sense of her atheism. It's defined as ' disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods', but as i mentioned earlier, Gods do exist in Roshar.  

Don't get me wrong, I do like her as a character, she's badass( although a bit too cocky sometimes), but this one thing just puts me off.

[Lunamor]

If I remember correctly, she said that she was open to the idea of there being of a higher power/god, but just didn't believe that the Almighty was a god to be worshiped. So I don't think that would be her viewpoint- I think that she isn't quite an Atheist, more questioning than anything. 

[RShara]

Why are they God, just because they are super powerful beings? If we met aliens with technology that could bend time and space and had unlimited power sources, would you consider them Gods? Some people would, but I wouldn't. They would just be...extremely advanced and powerful beings.

Here's a good topic with a lot of discussion on it back then, that I think covers a lot of people's thoughts both for and against. (We should continue discussion here, of course, just putting this here as a reference)

 

Edited August 5, 2020 by RShara

[BloomAgeOne]

2 hours ago, Lunamor said:

If I remember correctly, she said that she was open to the idea of there being of a higher power/god, but just didn't believe that the Almighty was a god to be worshiped. So I don't think that would be her viewpoint- I think that she isn't quite an Atheist, more questioning than anything. 

I pretty much agree with this. Jasnah simply didn't agree with people worshipping Honor, because she didn't see any reason to. As far as I recall, Honor didn't tell people to worship him or anything. I wonder what Jasnah would think of Adonalsium.

1 hour ago, RShara said:

Why are they God, just because they are super powerful beings? If we met aliens with technology that could bend time and space and had unlimited power sources, would you consider them Gods? Some people would, but I wouldn't. They would just be...extremely advanced and powerful beings.

 

 This is pretty interesting - it's basically how the Dark Lords of the Sith rose to power.

[Honorless]

Religion is about belief not finding a being of sufficient power. Jasnah does not believe in the very idea of God. That's what the Shards are to her: powerful entities. And how powerful is the Almighty, when he's dead.

[Dancer]

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

Religion is about belief not finding a being of sufficient power. Jasnah does not believe in the very idea of God. That's what the Shards are to her: powerful entities. And how powerful is the Almighty, when he's dead.

That only really holds up if you believe in a monotheistic god. In a religion with a pantheon of gods they often do die and are still counted as being gods. Also gods in a pantheon are not bound to being the representation of all things good, virtues and holy and are aloud to make mistakes.      

[Honorless]

4 minutes ago, Dancer said:

That only really holds up if you believe in a monotheistic god. In a religion with a pantheon of gods they often do die and are still counted as being gods. Also gods in a pantheon are not bound to being the representation of all things good, virtues and holy and are aloud to make mistakes.      

Yes, but this is in the context of Vorinism and their belief in the Almighty.

[Quantus]

44 minutes ago, Dancer said:

That only really holds up if you believe in a monotheistic god. In a religion with a pantheon of gods they often do die and are still counted as being gods. Also gods in a pantheon are not bound to being the representation of all things good, virtues and holy and are aloud to make mistakes.      

True, but taking that view of gods reeeeallly focuses everything else on the only requirement being that they were Worshiped by somebody; being magical even becomes secondary.  In all other ways they are allowed to be normal people, they dont have to be Honorable,  Durable, Capable, or anything other than just Impressive.  So, alien cult worship.  

But getting back to Jasnah in particular, I think she views the average believer in the same general light and grouping that the average Alethi would put the Spren Cult from OB. People that have decided to worship natural phenomena because it makes them feel better, but to her actually Worshiping a spren is like worshiping a cloud or albino deer or something.    

 

EDIT:  Anyone here ever read the Dresden Files?  Im reminded of the Agnostic Knight of the Cross: This guy is a literal Chosen champion of the Christian God, one of three in the world.  He wields a sword with a Crucifixion nail in it, has personally had discussions with angels, and spent years before possessed by a Fallen Angel.  But he professes to be an atheist, or at least agnostic.  Ask him and he says the beings he's met could easily be powerful aliens, and while that would make them unworthy of worship it would not make the work he does for them meaningless (ie saving people from monsters).  He's also not entirely sure he's not hallucinating his whole life from a mental ward, but he chooses to keep moving forward on the Hope that his efforts do make a difference to People, regardless of any theology implications.  

Edited August 5, 2020 by Quantus

[theTruthshaper]

40 minutes ago, Quantus said:

True, but taking that view of gods reeeeallly focuses everything else on the only requirement being that they were Worshiped by somebody; being magical even becomes secondary.  In all other ways they are allowed to be normal people, they dont have to be Honorable,  Durable, Capable, or anything other than just Impressive.  So, alien cult worship.   

I mean, is there any other requirement for being a god except getting worshipped?

 

Also, wasn't Jasnah a heretic?

[Karger]

6 hours ago, Szeth_lz said:

So why is she still an atheist? What is her thinking, her ideology? Im sorry if it has been discussed before, but i would really like to know what you all think, cause i really can't make any sense of her atheism. It's defined as ' disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods', but as i mentioned earlier, Gods do exist in Roshar.  

She lays out her reasoning at the beginning of WoR.  Beings such as Honor and Odium might exist but they are fallible.  She feels no personal inclination to worship powerful yet fallible beings nor does she except them as arbiters of ethical behavior.  Jasnah believes that this is the purpose of a god and since she does not think any being can carry out that purpose she chooses not to worship.  When talking to Taravangian in WoKs she claims that morality and choice exist outside of any god's preview.  If one and one making two exist without a deity deciding then why not murder being wrong?

[Quantus]

4 minutes ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

I mean, is there any other requirement for being a god except getting worshipped?

Id argue that there better be, otherwise the only thing to deserve being worshiped is to be Worshiped is to be Worshiped...

The OP suggests that a God is just a powerful being, so if you can prove it exists you should call it a god (and by implication somebody should worship it).  Some might add  that they should actually intervene and/or answer prayers (in the form of burned glyphs in the Vorin case).  Others might set the bar at Creator of the Universe, so maybe only Adonalsium qualifies, unless you also add Preservation and Ruin as those Shard who have actually done it.  And if the only Bar is that somebody worships it, it creates a cult of sheep that worship whatever the next guy worships with no other qualification than gaining your first follower.  

In the first case, anybody from a Returned to the Lord Ruler to Dalinar would qualify already. In the second case, Pretty much any sapient spren might qualify, though they may or may not be benevolent.  in the last you might only call it Adonalsuin (assuming a lot of things), but to draw a line between a held Shard and a spontaneously conscious ball of Investiture will become a scientific endeavor, which some might argue invalidates Divinity all on it's own, because it has to be Unknowable.  In the last, Kaladin was the God of Bridge 4 for a long time (they've loosened up now), as are every one of the Heralds or Returned, Marsh, Syl if you listen to her, The Blackthorn at times, those Greatshell Islands, etc etc etc

 

4 minutes ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

Also, wasn't Jasnah a heretic?

Yup.  But to the Vorin Church Atheist=heretic.  Also she had the audacity to "use" a Soulcaster without being an Ardent.

[+robardin]

52 minutes ago, Karger said:

She lays out her reasoning at the beginning of WoR.  Beings such as Honor and Odium might exist but they are fallible.  She feels no personal inclination to worship powerful yet fallible beings nor does she except them as arbiters of ethical behavior.  Jasnah believes that this is the purpose of a god and since she does not think any being can carry out that purpose she chooses not to worship.  When talking to Taravangian in WoKs she claims that morality and choice exist outside of any god's preview.  If one and one making two exist without a deity deciding then why not murder being wrong?

Exactly - it's like in Stephen Crane's short poem, A Man Said To The Universe, but in reference to a "god" like Honor, Odium, or even Adonalsium.

Quote

A man said to the universe:

“Sir, I exist!”

“However,” replied the universe,

“The fact has not created in me

A sense of obligation.”

The people of Scadrial, now, are potentially in a bit of a slightly different position with respect to their God(s)... But this being the SA forum I'll leave that thought for a different discussion.

[+Child of Hodor]

Dalinar came around on his view of The Almighty. If there is a god, it wasn't him. 

Quote

"If there is a God, it was not the Almight, the one who called himself Honor. He was a creature. Powerful, but still merely a creature." - OB Ch. 28

 

[Szeth_lz]

Hmm....I see it all hangs upon what criteria we hold for calling somebody a 'God'. Is it merely the creation of all beings? Intervening in their troubles and answering their prayers? Their power and their worshippers? Or a mixture of all of these.

Well i guess we may find somebody to fit all these criteria in the Cosmere, nevertheless i am starting to understand her thinking.

Hmm...

[theTruthshaper]

Did Adonalsium create the cosmere? If yes, then what's up with the rest of the universe?

[Hen]

Well you have to remember that to them, their world is normal. There are plenty of people on earth that are atheist. But if someone from a different world or time, (lets say the stone age) saw our technology, they would think it was magic, and they wouldn't see why some of us are atheist. Do you see what I'm saying? 

To the people of Roshar, stormlight and highstorms are a way of life, something that has always been there, so jasnah doesnt see that as a work of god, but a force of nature.

And Jasnah is open to being converted, she just hasn't seen any real proof that the almighty exists, and can we blame her? Vorinism isnt correct. 

[Quantus]

58 minutes ago, Szeth_lz said:

Hmm....I see it all hangs upon what criteria we hold for calling somebody a 'God'. Is it merely the creation of all beings? Intervening in their troubles and answering their prayers? Their power and their worshippers? Or a mixture of all of these.

Well i guess we may find somebody to fit all these criteria in the Cosmere, nevertheless i am starting to understand her thinking.

Hmm...

I fully believe that exploring this very question is one of the more prominent purposes of writing the Cosmere as a whole.  Nearly every book present some version or idea of a divinity, and then explores the implications of that definition.  From the Returned and the Court of the Gods who dont always believe in themselves, to the god-king empire of era1 and it's crazy deities, to a place like Roshar where people call the Stormfather a god, he calls the Heralds divinities, the "god" who made The Heralds was himself a former mortal man who ascended before he went crazy and died, and another "god" is currently waging a war of annihilation against his kin while multiple races of people and spren get caught in the crossfire.  Meanwhile we have 10 divergent definitions of "Honor" to compare and contrast as their paragons go through various challenges.  

Edited August 5, 2020 by Quantus

[+robardin]

1 hour ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

Did Adonalsium create the cosmere? If yes, then what's up with the rest of the universe?

Well it's like that story that Hoid alluded to, yeah? That implied that Adonalsium allowed himself to be Splintered in order to experience things in his own universe in a multiplicity of ways and POVs. Kind of like that story by Andy Weir, The Egg, from before he wrote "The Martian", the work that made him famous.

Edited August 5, 2020 by robardin

[RShara]

2 hours ago, Szeth_lz said:

Hmm....I see it all hangs upon what criteria we hold for calling somebody a 'God'. Is it merely the creation of all beings? Intervening in their troubles and answering their prayers? Their power and their worshippers? Or a mixture of all of these.

Well i guess we may find somebody to fit all these criteria in the Cosmere, nevertheless i am starting to understand her thinking.

Hmm...

Exactly, yep. What do you define as a god? Jasnah, I think, defines it similar to the Christian God, the alpha and omega, "I am that I am". And she doesn't consider the Shards to fit that bill.

I mean, people used to worship particularly interesting looking rocks and rivers. And that's fine, if they feel it is worthy of worship, but I don't feel the need to do the same, you know?

[Quantus]

10 minutes ago, RShara said:

Exactly, yep. What do you define as a god? Jasnah, I think, defines it similar to the Christian God, the alpha and omega, "I am that I am". And she doesn't consider the Shards to fit that bill.

I mean, people used to worship particularly interesting looking rocks and rivers. And that's fine, if they feel it is worthy of worship, but I don't feel the need to do the same, you know?

Especially in the argument of Spren-like entities being gods, because to her they are a perfectly ordinary natural occurrence. We see it as mystical and so think it would be just like having a classic earth religion but with tangible proof.  But from her perspective these are entirely ordinary traits of nature, not something to be followed or revered.  The fact that a weather pattern can speak to her is no more awe-inspiring from her perspective that the fact that a parrot can speak is to worship-worthy to us.  And since they hadnt been interacting in the modern age, their interactions were about on par with animals: coexisting but not really revered. The argument could be made that in the radiant era there was enough direct interaction to elevate them, but on the other hand at that stage they were 10 foreign cultures in an alliance, not a pantheon of gods.  

[Pathfinder]

So I have one comment and will leave it at that because of how the last thread progressed. 

My issue with saying that people called a pantheon gods, thereby means if an entity exists that is like the description of a pantheon of gods, then that is the definition of god, and thereby proves the existence of gods I believe is faulty. If we look up the definition of god, we have two:

 

1. (in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.

2.(in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.

 

Both specify in regards to a religion, that the individuals that believe that religion, defines a god as such. That does not mean that is the objective definition of god. It means individuals however many years ago, or individuals today personally define god as such. That does not mean an atheist has to then prescribe to that definition, nor does it mean its existence or non-existence disproves the atheist. Just like people hundreds of years ago thought that Zeus being the cause of lightning bolts was a point in fact, till it was proven later to not be. Zeus did not any more exist hundreds of years ago, than he does now. Just back then there lacked the sufficient scientific capabilities to disprove it. Just like if Zeus suddenly showed up today and used lightning bolts does not make him a god. We could simply lack the scientific capabilities to prove that Zeus is actually an alien using technology we have not discovered yet, and appropriated our mythology to rule over us. Yet again, Zeus was not any more or less a god because what showed up aligned with what a group of individuals considered a god. Only for them was that validated. That still does not prove nor disprove the atheist.  

 

And not for the first time, I really don't get this compulsion for people both in the book, and outside to "prove Jasnah wrong". The character herself is perfectly content in holding her beliefs, and respecting others of theirs. When Dalinar came to the conclusion that the Almighty is not god, she did not go "ha ha, neener neener". She understood the difficulty of such an experience, consoled him, and supported him. She did not care what conclusion he came to regarding his religion, so long as he thought on it, and it was true to himself. Navani is still an orthodox vorin. Jasnah did not stop her from practicing either. The only times Jasnah espouses her beliefs is when someone decides to forcefully insert themselves in her life and tell her that her beliefs are wrong. So she is naturally going to defend herself. 

So for an individual who has been repeatedly understanding and supportive to other individual's belief systems (Dalinar, Shallan, and Navani off the top of my head alone), despite being repeatedly attacked for her own, I wonder when she will ever catch a break. 

[The Ryshadium]

Jasnah's atheism is not comparable to Earth's in that way. Roshar is a place full of supernatural elements and magic. When something has always been supernatural, it becomes natural in the minds of humans. Jasnah acknowledges that the Almighty could exist. She just doesn't understand why she would need to worship him. With this mindset, her atheism is not at all idiotic. Just because there is a being with all-powerful supernatural abilities, doesn't mean she should worship them. They are no more deserving of worship than any other being or force of nature. 

[discorat]

On 2020-08-05 at 10:13 AM, Szeth_lz said:

In the world of Roshar, where there is magic and all and proven existence of beings such as Odium, Nightwatcher and other entities which may well be easily be termed God, i really can't see any basis for Jasnah's atheism. It's idiotic, illogical. 

I mean, if this was our world, where such magical elements and godly entities aren't found, being atheist is simply preventing oneself from believing in the 'presumed' or 'mythical' existence of God and not needing any sort of belief system to keep one going, which has logical grounds all right. But in a world like Roshar, well, there are clearly Gods. They exist. They existed. They have powers beyond contemplation. We can't even directly look at their full form or their full being directly (as in the case of Odium, of course). Also, the presumed 'good' god, the Almighty, clearly existed too. 

So why is she still an atheist? What is her thinking, her ideology? Im sorry if it has been discussed before, but i would really like to know what you all think, cause i really can't make any sense of her atheism. It's defined as ' disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods', but as i mentioned earlier, Gods do exist in Roshar.  

Don't get me wrong, I do like her as a character, she's badass( although a bit too cocky sometimes), but this one thing just puts me off.

Technically, even real life religious people see certain things as miracles, and by your logic then atheism here is stupid as well? 

I don't think its easy to compare our world with theirs, to them radiants and storms are a part of history and ''real life''. We have people with incredible athletic abilities and tropical storms here, too, that probably are worshipped as well. 

 

Also there are different religions, Jasnah just doesn't believe in the one most people in Alethkar do. 

[Aminar]

Life in and of itself is miraculous. The universe should not exist. Why would it? Where did it come from? Why would it happen? How did it begin? And how did it line up in such a way where life is possible? Yet we have atheism here too. And in many ways its far more rational than religion. Jasnah denies that there is an all powerful creator worthy of worship. And she's right. The almighty was not an all powerful creator deserving of worship. He was both once human with all the flaws that come with that, one of 3 such entities in that solar system, sharply limited, and not deserving of worship. He wasn't benevolent. He wasn't the creator of the cosmere. He was rigidly bound to be honorable. Nothing about that made him worthy of worship or praise. He was just powerful and in his way tried to help. He failed. He died. 

 

Shards are not gods. 

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Aminar said:

Shards are not gods. 

^This.

That's your answer @Szeth_iz they have more powerful magic, but they aren't gods.

The God Beyond is what would actually count but his exsistance is intentionally kept from being cannon, although so is his non-existence. The canon is very agnostic.