Gavilar is an Abuser

[GudThymes]

Preface, this is going to be long but it's important. I'm new to the forums and haven't had a chance to get to know people personally but I wanted to create this topic because I've seen some discussion surrounding Gavilar that I wasn't comfortable with. Rather than continuing in those threads I'm creating this to center the discussion of Gavilar and his treatment of those close to him here. If you feel like you are in an abusive relationship, Trust your gut, you can get support here: 1−800−799−7233

First I'm going to refer to some of the National Domestic Violence Hotline's criteria for abuse that I believe are relevant to the Prologue chapter:

Quote

1. Calling you names, insulting you or continually criticizing you
2. Refusing to trust you and acting jealous or possessive
3. Threatening to hurt you, the children, your family or your pets
4. Humiliating you in any way
5. Blaming you for the abuse
6. Gaslighting (link if you don't know this term)
7. Accusing you of cheating and being often jealous of your outside relationships
8. Telling you that you will never find anyone better, or that you are lucky to be with a person like them

Just because someone does something that is on this list does not mean it is abuse. There can be a single instance of abuse or continued abuse. However, I think we can establish that the severity of a single action is what would make the action abusive, whereas continued actions from the list of criteria qualifies as abuse.

Prologue:

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Today, she’d do her job—though a part of her felt like an impostor. However prestigious her ancient lineage might be, her anxiety whispered that she was really just a backwater country girl wearing someone else’s clothing. 

Those insecurities had grown stronger lately. Calm. Calm. There was no room for that sort of thinking

This is setting the reader up for what is coming. It's establishing that Navani isn't feeling like she belongs at Gavilar's side. BS notes that her anxieties/insecurities have gotten worse lately. In a healthy relationship she would be able to express this to her husband and he would be able to reassure her anxieties. This does not happen.

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“What was that about?” Navani asked as Gavilar closed the door. “Those are no ambassadors. Who are they really?”

Gavilar did not answer. With deliberate motions, he began plucking the spheres off the table and placing them into a pouch.

Navani darted forward and snatched one. “What are these? How did you get spheres that glow like this? Does this have to do with the artifabrians you’ve invited here?” She looked to him, waiting for some kind of answer, some explanation.

Instead, he held out his hand for her sphere. “This does not concern you, Navani. Return to the feast.”

This is number (2) from the segment above. He does not trust her.

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“Do you know,” he said softly, “how tired I grow of your constant questions, woman?”

“Perhaps try answering one or two, then. It’d be a novel experience, treating your wife like a human being—rather than like a machine built to count the days of the week for you.”

More evidence of lack of trust

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“Why? Why do you continue to shut me out? Please, just tell me.”

“I deal in secrets you could not handle, Navani. If you knew the scope of what I’ve begun…”

And more. Clearly this is a pattern, yeah? One time is circumstance, two times is coincidence, three times is a patter. Brandon is drilling this lack of trust from Gavilar into us.

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He took her hand, forced apart her fingers, and removed the sphere. She didn’t fight him; he would not react well. He had never used his strength against her, not in that way, but there had been words. Comments. Threats.

This is clearly (3) he has threatened her without resorting to physical abuse... yet.

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“You’re punishing me, aren’t you?” Navani demanded. “You know my love of fabrials. You taunt me specifically because you know it will hurt.”

“Perhaps,” Gavilar said, “you will learn to consider before you speak, Navani. Perhaps you will learn the dangerous price of rumors.”

This again? she thought. “Nothing happened, Gavilar.”

A glimpse into why she may deserve the abuse (spoiler, no one deserves the abuse, that's a sign of abuse). Number (7) he is accusing her of cheating, and is jealous of her relationship with Dalinar. No matter how founded it is.

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He didn’t respond with shouts or rage, but the cold void in his eyes could have consumed continents and left only blackness. He raised his hand to her chin and gently cupped it, a mockery of a once-passionate gesture.

It was more painful than a slap.

This is (4) he is humiliating her by twisting a once compassionate gesture into mockery.

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“You know why I don’t involve you, Navani?” he said softly. “Do you think you can take the truth?”

“Try for once. It would be refreshing.”

“You aren’t worthy, Navani.

He is blaming her for the abuse (5)

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You claim to be a scholar, but where are your discoveries? You study light, but you are its opposite. A thing that destroys light. You spend your time wallowing in the muck of the kitchens and obsessing about whether or not some insignificant lighteyes recognizes the right lines on a map.

“These are not the actions of greatness. You are no scholar. You merely like being near them. You are no artifabrian. You are merely a woman who likes trinkets. You have no fame, accomplishment, or capacity of your own. Everything distinctive about you came from someone else. You have no power—you merely like to marry men who have it.”

Wow, this is a lot all in one. He is calling her names, belittling her, and humiliating her for something she loves (1 and 4). Then he concludes with telling her that she isn't worthy of their relationship (8)

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No. Don’t let his lies become your truth. Fight it. Teeth gritted, she opened her eyes and began rummaging in her desk for some oil paint and paper.

This is the only quote I've pulled that I feel like is any stretch to call it abuse. But her internal monologue here "Don't let his lies become your truth. Fight it" Screams that he has been gaslighting her for an extended period of time.

 

Here's what I find the most important part of the chapter, it's not evidence of actual abuse. It's showing how we normalize it.

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How had it come to this? Their arguments grew worse and worse. She knew he was not this man, the one he showed her lately. He wasn’t like this when he spoke to Dalinar, or to Sadeas, or even—usually—to Jasnah.

Gavilar was better than this. She suspected he knew it too. Tomorrow she would receive flowers. No apology to accompany them, but a gift, usually a bracelet.

Yes, he knew he should be something more. But… somehow she brought out the monster in him. And he somehow brought out the weakness in her. She slammed her safehand palm against the table, rubbing her forehead with her other hand.

Storms. It seemed not so long ago that they’d sat conspiring together about the kingdom they would forge. Now they barely spoke without reaching for their sharpest knives—stabbing them right into the most painful spots with an accuracy gained only through longtime familiarity.

Our society and many of us normalize the behaviors I listed above. We say what Navani says that this was an "argument" and that they "bring out the worst in eachother". This is not the case, this is abuse, we need to recognize it for what it is, and not be afraid to call it that. We can have a whole long discussion about the justification or rationalization of what it is, but that just enables abusers. Allowing abusers to get away with these kinds of behaviors only protects them. We as a society need to do better by providing support for their victims and safe exits for them to leave their abuse.

 

I'm not an professional in the field or anything close to an expert. Please, if you feel like there is abuse in your relationship, Trust your gut, reach out to someone -- You can reach out to me if you want. If you're looking for professional support you can contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline by calling  1−800−799−7233

If you are being abused or have been abused you need to know this. You do not deserve it, there is nothing that can make that true. No one deserves abuse.

Edited August 5, 2020 by GudThymes

[Dracnor]

Why can't I upvote you more than once ?

[Knight Oblivion]

It hit me like the whole Amber Heard audio hit me, so I'm fine with calling it abuse since it is. It's also how I talked about it to my brother when we were discussing the prologue.

 

My only regret is that I can't upvote you more for this post.

[Honorless]

You've done your research

His treatment of Jasnah (mentioned in this prologue & by Jasnah) & Dalinar (what Gavilar says of him, giving the impression he just used his own brother) were also pretty appalling 

Edited August 5, 2020 by Honorless

[menacekop]

I don't think anyone is defending, dismissing or not recognizing the actions of abuse.  Its more of a question of why and how.  Why is Gavilar being abusive?  and How did Gavilar get to this point?  From what we can see here he's a conqueror who became power drunk and discovered a path to becoming a god (possibly?), he was a complete megalomaniac at the time of his death.  But up to this point we saw Gavilar as the softer side to Dalinar's Black Thorn days, the reasonable one who restrained him and moved them away from war and killing and onto creating a kingdom with a stable society.  Now we get this, its kind of a shock to the system so naturally we have questions, we wanna know why and how he got to this point and what signs did we potentially miss that pointed to this type of person.

I think he may have been on good path or at least one of redemption for the war monger he had been, but then discovered something that sent him back to the edge and then over it.  I think that something was a path to godhood but I also wonder if he was further being manipulated by odium or one of the unmade, hell it could have been more than just manipulation some of his mental capacity may have even been compromised (we have seen what effect the unmade can have on a person, take Aesudan for example).   

It's human nature to ask questions and want to understand the deeper meaning of things, exploring these nuances does not mean we are dismissing the act of abuse, the very act of trying to figure out the why and how is acknowledgment of its existence in the first place. 

[GudThymes]

@Dracnor, @Knight Oblivion thank you both, that's sweet. I didn't write this for the upvotes, rather because I wanted to steer conversation in a direction that I think can do some good/be more productive.

5 hours ago, Honorless said:

You've done your research

Not enough to be honest. I read the chapter and felt sick by what Gavilar was doing, and felt the urgency to analyze it in a way that I think many who didn't will now be able to recognize the abuse as such.

 

4 hours ago, menacekop said:

I don't think anyone is defending, dismissing or not recognizing the actions of abuse.

I don't agree with this sentiment, I felt like people in other threads were dismissing or not recognizing these actions as abuse -- It's why I wrote this. Unless more people chime in I think it's a matter of opinion. 

 

4 hours ago, menacekop said:

Its more of a question of why and how.  Why is Gavilar being abusive?  and How did Gavilar get to this point?

I spoke to this in the other thread you made this comment but I'll say something different here. Does it really matter? Sure we are curious as humans and want explanations. But having them doesn't change the actions. Gavilar abused Navani, now unless we are truly given an explanation for why he did this (other than the one he gave, I already showed how his "rationale" for some of the abuse was abuse itself) then I don't think this question matters.

Let's talk about the Blackthorn for a minute. In WoK we are introduced to Dalinar as this paragon of virtue who is held in high esteem by those with Honor but looked down upon by the Alethi for it. Additionally, the Alethi seem to praise his warrior days as the Blackthorn. We see Dalinar engage in combat at the end of WoK and in WoR and become disgusted by the bloodlust, to the point that he questions his own capacity to lead. Then we get OB where we really get to see who the Blackthorn was, and we are disgusted by him. So is Dalinar, we learn that he was consumed by alcoholism to escape his own sins (mostly killing his wife, but there's PTSD and disgust at himself too). We like Queen Fen and others in world question his virtue. But, then we're shown something important. Dalinar was not this disgusting human, he was being manipulated by a shard and the unmade to do what he does. For many of us we accept this reasoning, and allow ourselves to forgive him. Some may not.

 

Ok, how does this relate to Gavilar? Well if we are shown some magical reasoning for his abusive tendencies then I am absolutely ok with going down these arguments of whether or not he's redeemable. We haven't been given this, anything we can say is all speculation. My theory for why is Gavilar being abusive and how he got there?

He is a megalomaniac, he was satisfied with uniting Alehtkar and having Navani as his bride. Then through the SoH he learned that the world was a much bigger place, and so his true nature was shown. He lusted for power and would lord his power over all those around him. 

You may not agree with my opinion, but we don't have enough to go off of at this point. We've had one new piece of information showing his abuse, and for now it's enough to condemn him as an abuser. However, given the magic of this universe we all love, he is still redeemable. But only through magic.

[menacekop]

36 minutes ago, GudThymes said:

 

You may not agree with my opinion, but we don't have enough to go off of at this point. We've had one new piece of information showing his abuse, and for now it's enough to condemn him as an abuser. However, given the magic of this universe we all love, he is still redeemable. But only through magic.

Hope I'm not coming off as contentious, I haven't read every post on the topic but I didn't notice anyone trying to completely dismiss the abuse in the other thread (I obviously could have missed it).  overall I agree with your sentiment here, we don't have enough info yet and I think that is the reason people are speculating so much on the topic.

[GudThymes]

6 minutes ago, menacekop said:

Hope I'm not coming off as contentious, I haven't read every post on the topic but I didn't notice anyone trying to completely dismiss the abuse in the other thread (I obviously could have missed it). 

No worries. There were a few comments before we really started going on that thread where people called Gavilar a "jerk" or a "bully" or "cruel" and while those are absolutely true, I felt like it wasn't acknowledging the level of abuse that was present. I personally would consider calling abuse something other than abuse as dismissing it (maybe not the right word to use, I'll admit).

The big takeaway that I hope others get from my comments is that the things Gavilar did in the prologue to Navani is abuse, and we need to be conscious of that and not be weary of calling it as such whether we are seeing it in media or in real life.

[agrabes]

I'll assume I'm one of the people being called out here, since I did defend Gavilar's actions in the first thread about the Prologue.  Seeing that I was pretty much the only person who felt that was appropriate, during those discussions I went back and reread the prologue again and realized I had either skimmed or skipped over a lot of the worst stuff that Gavilar did.  I went into my first read of the prologue with the thought that Gavilar must have some good reason for the way he was acting in the earlier excerpt we got from the prologue and so I was only looking for justification of why I was right.  On the second read, I realized a lot of what he did was way over the line, much more so than I originally thought.

This is a dangerous topic to discuss on the internet.  People generally tend to want to think the worst of you, particularly if you're not advocating the absolute maximum support of people who may be victims.  Honestly, if I had actually fully read what Gavilar did the first time around, I would have never made the comments that I did.  I personally feel that we have not seen enough in the book to indicate that Gavilar is definitely abusive.  I believe there's a high chance that he is/was, enough so that it was not right to try to argue a devil's advocate position that he wasn't so bad as everyone thought.  But I don't believe that whether or not he was abusive can be determined for certain based on only one interaction in which there was no physical violence taking place.  We only know one side of the story right now.  Gavilar has a right to his own version of the events as long as they are not lies.  He has a right to argue with Navani and express to her that he believes he is right and she is wrong.  He has a right to be mad at her and frustrated with her.  Expressing anger and frustration in an inappropriate way is wrong but does not necessarily mean he is being abusive.  It's the way he does these things over time that would push inappropriate and hurtful behavior over the line to abuse.

I'm going to leave it with this: I fully support what the OP said about seeking help in abusive situations and that we as society should help those who feel they have been abused.  Perception is reality for situations like this - if you feel you've been abused, then you have.  And yes, sometimes it takes an outside person to help you understand that what is going on is actually abuse.  If you knew me as a person and understood my values through my day to day actions, you would understand that I am not someone who wants to enable abuse.  I simply believe that domestic abuse is an extremely complicated topic.  Sometimes it's open and shut, good and evil.  But many times it is not that simple.  I appreciate the OP's call out because I think it's important to express that message, but I don't think any good can come of having any further discussion about this, so I'm going to leave it there.

[rjl]

Gavilar's behaviour in this prologue was abusive - I don't think that's particularly debatable. However this is a fantasy book and we don't have all the information.

He could have been possessed, he could have a mental illness we're not aware of or he could have recently undergone some unknown incredible trauma

None of these options would make his behaviour OK, BUT they would make it understandable and could cause the reader to be sympathetic to him - similar to how many of us find ourselves sympathising with Dalinar despite his war crimes.

Stepping outside of fantasy, in real life many abusers have other serious problems that have contributed to their behaviour, that's not to say that whatever the abuser has endured somehow makes their behaviour ok BUT it is to say that life isn't black and white.

Edited August 5, 2020 by rjl

[MacThorstenson]

1 hour ago, GudThymes said:

Let's talk about the Blackthorn for a minute. In WoK we are introduced to Dalinar as this paragon of virtue who is held in high esteem by those with Honor but looked down upon by the Alethi for it. Additionally, the Alethi seem to praise his warrior days as the Blackthorn. We see Dalinar engage in combat at the end of WoK and in WoR and become disgusted by the bloodlust, to the point that he questions his own capacity to lead. Then we get OB where we really get to see who the Blackthorn was, and we are disgusted by him. So is Dalinar, we learn that he was consumed by alcoholism to escape his own sins (mostly killing his wife, but there's PTSD and disgust at himself too). We like Queen Fen and others in world question his virtue. But, then we're shown something important. Dalinar was not this disgusting human, he was being manipulated by a shard and the unmade to do what he does. For many of us we accept this reasoning, and allow ourselves to forgive him. Some may not.

 

With all due respect, I think that this is a serious misrepresentation of Dalinar's entire arc. There was an entire scene in Oathbringer involved with Dalinar saying that "You cannot have my pain." I don't have the entire quote with me. But iirc Dalinar says quite clearly that even though he had Odium's and the unmade's influence, it was still him making those decisions. It was still him who made those terrible choices.

He was able to be redeemed because he took responsibility for his actions. It's not a redemption arc if the character was never bad in the first place. By placing the blame on others, either by magical or non-magical reasons, the character was never evil. If, for example, Gavilar was found to being influenced by odium to such a degree that he had no choice in his abuse towards Navani then he wouldn't cease to be making bad choices, he would be incapable of making them. Intent matters a lot with regards to guilt, punishment, and justice. That's why there is a difference between murder and manslaughter, and one is noticeably worse then the other. But the only way for Gavilar to be redeemed is if he is responsible for his decisions. Saying otherwise removes his potential for growth, and invalidates experiences of people who have grown and redeemed themselves for anything in their life.

I think that you can compare Dalinar and Gavilar, but not in the sense that one can be redeemed and another cannot. They both could be redeemed, but one is significantly less likely to be redeemed then the other. In fact, at this point in the timeline, it is interesting to note that dalinar and gavilar are probably about equal in the Evil-o-meter. Where their redemption arcs diverge is that G is killed tonight, and Dalinar starts trying to atone. 

3 hours ago, GudThymes said:

I spoke to this in the other thread you made this comment but I'll say something different here. Does it really matter? Sure we are curious as humans and want explanations. But having them doesn't change the actions. Gavilar abused Navani, now unless we are truly given an explanation for why he did this (other than the one he gave, I already showed how his "rationale" for some of the abuse was abuse itself) then I don't think this question matters.

I will say here that while the answers to the "why" and "hows" don't change what he did they are extremely important to understanding his character and thus the story, his relationship with the larger events of the world, and its ramifications and impacts on the story.

Furthermore, the why's and hows do change how responsible he is for his actions. They don't redeem him, because justification isn't redemption, but if he is being 100% mind controlled by Odium, then it wouldn't make sense to place blame on Gavilar for these actions. On the other hand, the why's and how's can lend support to him being 100% in control and being an abuser.

Brandon has a knack for giving us compelling and layered villains, and refusing to ask questions of the villains does Brandon a disservice. To quote Hoid "The purpose of a storyteller is not to tell you how to think, but to give you questions to think upon." Brandon's forced us to ask these questions of people who are far far worse then Gavilar, but while a lot of those characters may have a higher body count, or longer lives with more atrocities, they've also been farther removed from home. I would wager that none of us have had to deal with being abandoned by our friends and tortured in Hell for 4500 years, and we probably haven't had to deal with warlords burning down our cities and everyone in side. But many of us have had to deal with abuse, so Gavilar's comments and behavior hit far closer to home. I think that asking the why's and how's are just as important for everyone, regardless of what impact the answer may have.

 

[Aminar]

Yep. I've been saying this since Jasnah started talking about her breakdowns. The way both her and Navani talked about Gavilar suggested he was just not a kind man. It was very similar to the way kids who've come forward to me about abusive parents start those conversations. Hesitant and subtle, looking to have you notice, but not sure if you'll care enough to dig deeper. 

[Stars56]

On 8/5/2020 at 11:12 PM, agrabes said:

But I don't believe that whether or not he was abusive can be determined for certain based on only one interaction in which there was no physical violence taking place.

Abuse doesn't require physical violence to definitely be abuse.

[Black_Shoshan]

On 8/6/2020 at 2:49 AM, MacThorstenson said:

 

I think that you can compare Dalinar and Gavilar, but not in the sense that one can be redeemed and another cannot. They both could be redeemed, but one is significantly less likely to be redeemed then the other. In fact, at this point in the timeline, it is interesting to note that dalinar and gavilar are probably about equal in the Evil-o-meter. Where their redemption arcs diverge is that G is killed tonight, and Dalinar starts trying to atone. 

I will say here that while the answers to the "why" and "hows" don't change what he did they are extremely important to understanding his character and thus the story, his relationship with the larger events of the world, and its ramifications and impacts on the story.

Furthermore, the why's and hows do change how responsible he is for his actions. They don't redeem him, because justification isn't redemption, but if he is being 100% mind controlled by Odium, then it wouldn't make sense to place blame on Gavilar for these actions. On the other hand, the why's and how's can lend support to him being 100% in control and being an abuser.
 

I think these points are really important when judging Gavilar.

The interesting thing about redemption arcs is that life isn't fair. A person can do bad things and die before they have chances to attempt amends, and that's that. If Dalinar, for example, would have died on the same night as Gavilar, then he would have been a person that was a warmonger, a drunk, a bad father. Because he had more time, he had the opportunity to make different choices: to study the way of kings to try and find a better path, to stop drinking and live by the codes, to actually be present in his sons lives, to try and solve issues through diplomacy instead of fighting.

If Gavilar would have lived, he might have chosen a different path, and depending on the amends he made, he might have started to redeem himself. But he didn't, so it's all about his actions up to the point of his death.

Whether Gavilar was influenced by anything supernatural remains to be seen, but even if he was that doesn't, in my opinion, absolve him. Just as Dalinar was responsible for his actions even when influenced by the thrill, and just as Lin Davar was responsible.

[LightReader]

On 8/5/2020 at 5:49 PM, MacThorstenson said:

With all due respect, I think that this is a serious misrepresentation of Dalinar's entire arc. There was an entire scene in Oathbringer involved with Dalinar saying that "You cannot have my pain." I don't have the entire quote with me. But iirc Dalinar says quite clearly that even though he had Odium's and the unmade's influence, it was still him making those decisions. It was still him who made those terrible choices.

He was able to be redeemed because he took responsibility for his actions. It's not a redemption arc if the character was never bad in the first place. By placing the blame on others, either by magical or non-magical reasons, the character was never evil. If, for example, Gavilar was found to being influenced by odium to such a degree that he had no choice in his abuse towards Navani then he wouldn't cease to be making bad choices, he would be incapable of making them. Intent matters a lot with regards to guilt, punishment, and justice. That's why there is a difference between murder and manslaughter, and one is noticeably worse then the other. But the only way for Gavilar to be redeemed is if he is responsible for his decisions. Saying otherwise removes his potential for growth, and invalidates experiences of people who have grown and redeemed themselves for anything in their life.

This point is also emphasized by Moash’s arc in OB, where he justifies all his mistakes by blaming society. It’s a lot like blaming peer pressure. While the magic influence of the Unmade and Odium may make this pressure harder to resist, it is a significant aspect of the concept of Honor that each individual is ultimately responsible for their own actions, whatever the circumstances. Knowing those circumstances may make a character more sympathetic, but only in the sense that we understand them better, not in the sense that they are absolved of the bad choices they made. This applies to Gavilar too, and I think the question people are wondering about is whether he would have eventually done like Dalinar and taken responsibility, or whether he would have gone the way of Moash and blamed circumstance, or like Amaram where he believes the ends justify the means, or full Odium where he essentially doesn’t believe in good and evil or morality in the first place.  I think that the truly honorable will feel remorse and take responsibility when they hurt other people, even when they didn’t intend to hurt them. 

[Watchcry]

Dalinar did the same to Evi, didn't he?

[Aminar]

1 hour ago, Watchcry said:

Dalinar did the same to Evi, didn't he?

Dalinar and Evi had significant cultural misunderstandings. They struggled to bridge that gap. But he wasn't in the habit of degrading her and destroying her sense of self worth in order to bind him to her. On the other hand, he killed her horribly. But not intentionally or knowingly. Arguments aren't inherently abusive. Every relationship is going to have them. No 2 people on the planet share exactly the same goals, needs, and desires in a relationship. There will always be some conflict. Especially when people have massive responsibilities like Dalinar did and does. The difference lies in how the people in the argument handle things.

 

[Watchcry]

1 hour ago, Aminar said:

Dalinar and Evi had significant cultural misunderstandings. They struggled to bridge that gap. But he wasn't in the habit of degrading her and destroying her sense of self worth in order to bind him to her. On the other hand, he killed her horribly. But not intentionally or knowingly. Arguments aren't inherently abusive. Every relationship is going to have them. No 2 people on the planet share exactly the same goals, needs, and desires in a relationship. There will always be some conflict. Especially when people have massive responsibilities like Dalinar did and does. The difference lies in how the people in the argument handle things.

 

I see this as something that was normal 100 years ago in some cultures (arabic, east asian to name a few). So Gavilar would have felt right at home.  Dalinar did degrade her sometimes imo, though.  

[Aminar]

1 minute ago, Watchcry said:

I see this as something that was normal 100 years ago in some cultures (arabic, east asian to name a few). So Gavilar would have felt right at home.  Dalinar did degrade her sometimes imo, though.  

Normal doesn't mean right. And given the age of civilization on Roshar I don't judge them as even 100 years ago. It's been like 4500 years since the last desolation. 4500 years ago the Ancient Egyptians were in their golden age. They might as well be a modern society with magic rather than our version of technology. 

[Watchcry]

They are however Brandon says they are. 

[Aminar]

On 8/9/2020 at 4:18 PM, Watchcry said:

They are however Brandon says they are. 

That's nice. There's still a massive difference between Dalinar's Behavior and Gavilars. And what Gavilar does is wrong to the point there is no justification. Lots of things were normal that are very wrong. People spoke up and those things changed. 

[GudThymes]

On 8/9/2020 at 11:39 AM, Watchcry said:

I see this as something that was normal 100 years ago in some cultures (arabic, east asian to name a few). So Gavilar would have felt right at home.  Dalinar did degrade her sometimes imo, though.  

And many western cultures normalized abusive relationships like this 100 years ago as well. That doesn't make it right. Just because something is tradition or commonplace doesn't make it inherently good (or bad), we as a society and individuals should consider the "norms" and question them when we feel like something is amiss. The abusive way that Gavilar treated Navani may have been "normal" at some points in our human history, but that makes it even more important that we make sure to root this kind of behavior out of our society

[Watchcry]

1 hour ago, GudThymes said:

And many western cultures normalized abusive relationships like this 100 years ago as well. That doesn't make it right. Just because something is tradition or commonplace doesn't make it inherently good (or bad), we as a society and individuals should consider the "norms" and question them when we feel like something is amiss. The abusive way that Gavilar treated Navani may have been "normal" at some points in our human history, but that makes it even more important that we make sure to root this kind of behavior out of our society

I didn't realize I said it was right.  Oh wait,  I didn't lol. I like that you guys are passionate about this.  It's great that today we can be so open with our opinions with no chance of reprisal / retaliation. 

[GudThymes]

Just now, Watchcry said:

I didn't realize I said it was right.  Oh wait,  I didn't lol. I like that you guys are passionate about this.  It's great that today we can be so open with our opinions with no chance of reprisal / retaliation. 

I'm glad to see that you agree with me that normalizing this kind of behavior is not right.

[Watchcry]

4 minutes ago, GudThymes said:

I'm glad to see that you agree with me that normalizing this kind of behavior is not right.

Of course I do. I'm not sure why you thought I didn't. I said it's normal for some people and cultures. That's a fact. I didn't realize I had to give my opinion.  My opinion is that it's wrong. Be careful not to judge people to be evil just because they don't give an opinion. That's dangerous. There's too much of that going on in the world. 

Edited August 11, 2020 by Watchcry