GudThymes Posted August 4, 2020 Report Share Posted August 4, 2020 3 minutes ago, Karger said: If that is the case then he should have recognized Dalinar's visions when they showed up. Adolin talked to him about them as far back as WoKs and he thought it was just PTSD. He also reacted too strongly to the almighty being dead for me at least to believe that. Wait, why would he have recognized them? I'm not being obtuse I just don't know all the facts. Do we know that Gavilar shared them with Restares/the sons? 4 minutes ago, Karger said: A fair point but is Dalinar that bad a judge of character? He tries to see the best in people sure and he got burned with Sadea but he still thought Sadeas was slime even back when they were working together. I don't even think he is a bad judge of character. He was suspecting of Sadeas the entire time and didn't want to fully trust him (look at his scenes with Adolin). He only trusted Sadeas because he asked the Almighty if he could trust Sadeas and the Almighty said yes. Except that it was just pure coincidence because the Almighty wasn't actually reacting to anything Dalinar was saying. I'm in the boat that the SoH are tricking Shallan into revealing herself and don't actually have a spy. I think there are a lot of signs showing the Dalinar/Shallan either don't have the full picture or worse are being intentionally played here. Sidenote, we generally know the SoH motivation, but what's the ghostbloods? Greed? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Child of Hodor Posted August 4, 2020 Report Share Posted August 4, 2020 10 minutes ago, GudThymes said: Sidenote, we generally know the SoH motivation, but what's the ghostbloods? Greed? That’s my guess. We know they are worldhoppers and they tried to kill Jasnah and Amaram who were both looking for Urithiru (via shattered plains). They asked Shallan to rid Urithiru of one Unmade then to attempt to recruit Sja-Anat (in the letter at the end of OB). When the Fused returned they were like “We will use this”. They seem amoral and after power. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GudThymes Posted August 4, 2020 Report Share Posted August 4, 2020 6 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said: That’s my guess. We know they are worldhoppers and they tried to kill Jasnah and Amaram who were both looking for Urithiru (via shattered plains). They asked Shallan to rid Urithiru of one Unmade then to attempt to recruit Sja-Anat (in the letter at the end of OB). When the Fused returned they were like “We will use this”. They seem amoral and after power. Thank you for this recap on them. I guess I could have looked at the coppermind entry (which I just did) but I like this more. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted August 5, 2020 Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 1 hour ago, GudThymes said: Wait, why would he have recognized them? I'm not being obtuse I just don't know all the facts. Do we know that Gavilar shared them with Restares/the sons? Technically we don't but Amaram took Dalinar's visions in stride and always had fitting answers. 1 hour ago, GudThymes said: I'm in the boat that the SoH are tricking Shallan into revealing herself and don't actually have a spy. I think there are a lot of signs showing the Dalinar/Shallan either don't have the full picture or worse are being intentionally played here. I agree that that Shallan is being played. 1 hour ago, GudThymes said: Sidenote, we generally know the SoH motivation, but what's the ghostbloods? Greed? As far as we can tell yeah(although not just for money). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTheodore Posted August 5, 2020 Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 Kadash could be a spy without being a member of the Sons of Honor. He could be spying for the Vorin Church and reporting to someone inside the Vorin Church who is a member of the Sons of Honor. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted August 5, 2020 Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 4 minutes ago, LordTheodore said: Kadash could be a spy without being a member of the Sons of Honor. He could be spying for the Vorin Church and reporting to someone inside the Vorin Church who is a member of the Sons of Honor. That would make a bit more sense. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clockworkspider Posted August 5, 2020 Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 4 hours ago, LordTheodore said: Kadash could be a spy without being a member of the Sons of Honor. He could be spying for the Vorin Church and reporting to someone inside the Vorin Church who is a member of the Sons of Honor. That's a pretty good idea. That said, from the perspective of a mystery for the readers, I don't think it's an ardent. Considering what we know about the Sons of Honor's goals, they're all obvious suspects (with one certain exception, of course). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harbour Posted August 5, 2020 Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 In before Adolin secretly is a spy all along and effed up Shallan's plan on purpose so his name woudnt be revealed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthHoid Posted August 5, 2020 Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 I'm just hoping it's a human and not some unseen Spren watching for them. Time for Dalinar to play some Game of Thrones and start feeding false info until something turns up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted August 5, 2020 Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 17 hours ago, Karger said: If that is the case then he should have recognized Dalinar's visions when they showed up. Adolin talked to him about them as far back as WoKs and he thought it was just PTSD. He also reacted too strongly to the almighty being dead for me at least to believe that. We know Gavilar shared his visions with a select group. Amaram, aware of the visions, still tried to use the visions to validate his world view. Up until it was conclusively proven false. Then he jumped ship. Kadash had still presented ways to rationalize the situation. 17 hours ago, Karger said: A fair point but is Dalinar that bad a judge of character? He tries to see the best in people sure and he got burned with Sadea but he still thought Sadeas was slime even back when they were working together. I am confused because at least the way you present it, would be further supportive of what I said, rather than discount it. If Dalinar could be duped by Sadeas, who he always knew to be slime, then why would it be far fetched for Dalinar to be duped by a long time friend and confidant who fought side by side with him prior to Rathalas? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted August 5, 2020 Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: Kadash had still presented ways to rationalize the situation. Kadash is looking into something he does not want to believe. I find it understandable that he tries to rationalize for as long as possible. 1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: I am confused because at least the way you present it, would be further supportive of what I said, rather than discount it. If Dalinar could be duped by Sadeas, who he always knew to be slime, then why would it be far fetched for Dalinar to be duped by a long time friend and confidant who fought side by side with him prior to Rathalas? What I am getting at is the person Dalinar sees Kadash as is clearly not capable of treachery. If he is a spy then one of two things must be true. Dalinar must be extremely wrong which would imply that he was a terrible judge of character or Kadash must be duped/believe he is working for Dalinar's/everyone's good. I personally reject the first. We see from his interactions with Adolin, Renarin, Sadeas, Elhokar, and even Kadash himself that Dalinar is a pretty good judge of human behavior. His major miscalculation with Sadeas did not happen because he did not know who Sadeas was but because he underestimated just how low the cremling would go. The second makes a bit more sense but still does not really square with me. Perhaps one of Kadash's friends in the ardentia is working on him by asking question about Dalinar's state of mind in the guise of looking into the visions and the SoH are overstating their connection? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted August 5, 2020 Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 55 minutes ago, Karger said: Kadash is looking into something he does not want to believe. I find it understandable that he tries to rationalize for as long as possible. My intention of mentioning that he rationalized it was not to say anything negative regarding him. Just that we have precedent that Kadash is willing to rationalize information to support his beliefs. 55 minutes ago, Karger said: What I am getting at is the person Dalinar sees Kadash as is clearly not capable of treachery. If he is a spy then one of two things must be true. Dalinar must be extremely wrong which would imply that he was a terrible judge of character or Kadash must be duped/believe he is working for Dalinar's/everyone's good. I personally reject the first. We see from his interactions with Adolin, Renarin, Sadeas, Elhokar, and even Kadash himself that Dalinar is a pretty good judge of human behavior. His major miscalculation with Sadeas did not happen because he did not know who Sadeas was but because he underestimated just how low the cremling would go. The second makes a bit more sense but still does not really square with me. Perhaps one of Kadash's friends in the ardentia is working on him by asking question about Dalinar's state of mind in the guise of looking into the visions and the SoH are overstating their connection? Hmmm, maybe if I give an example it might help with the confusion. Before I do so, let me be as clear as possible. What I am about to write is not a theory. It is not something to be examined and disproven. It is an example of a potential way events could have possibly happened that could result in "spy" Kadash. I am not saying we have proof that is how it went. It is meant as an illustration. Hopefully that covers things adequately. 1. Kadash and Dalinar are genuine friends and comrades in arms during fights. 2. Rathalas happens. Kadash becomes disillusioned with war and joins the ardentia 3. While in the ardentia, the Sons of Honor recruit him based on his faith in the heralds 4. All through Way of Kings and Words of Radiance Kadash is genuinely helping Dalinar while aiding the Sons of Honor because nothing has occurred to cause SoH and Dalinars goals to conflict yet. 5. Dalinar states the Almighty is dead and blasphemes the Vorin Church in which gave Kadash such solace. Kadash tries time and again to bring Dalinar back into the fold, while rationalizing away any new information that disputes his beliefs. 6. Realizing that Dalinar will not change, and believing that stance is harmful to the Vorin church, Kadash agrees with the Sons of Honor, that are now actively moving against Dalinar. In this example, Kadash was genuinely Dalinar's friend, and for the most part truly interested in Dalinar's well being while also being a part of the Sons of Honor. The status only changed when Dalinar fully committed, in the eyes of the church, heresy. So again, this is not meant to be a proof. Like 90 percent of it is pure conjecture. The only reason I use it as an illustration is to show it is possible that Kadash could be entirely genuine, not have Dalinar be crem at judging people, and still be the spy. Hope that helps. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted August 5, 2020 Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 1 minute ago, Pathfinder said: In this example, Kadash was genuinely Dalinar's friend, and for the most part truly interested in Dalinar's well being while also being a part of the Sons of Honor. The status only changed when Dalinar fully committed, in the eyes of the church, heresy. This again makes a degree more sense. It also implies that Gavilar kept the actual content of his visions close to the fold. If this is true I actually expect Kadash to come clean once he gets incontrovertible proof. Also given the strain that he is under I would not put it past the SoH to think they have to eliminate him soon. If Kadash is the spy both his life and mental wellbeing are in serious jeopardy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+robardin Posted August 6, 2020 Report Share Posted August 6, 2020 (edited) On 8/4/2020 at 6:57 PM, GudThymes said: Sidenote, we generally know the SoH motivation, but what's the ghostbloods? Greed? Well not greed for wealth, but certainly greed for power, specifically of the Invested kind. And of knowledge. As to what end - well, it's not greed for for its own sake. Mraize spoke to Shallan about how "good" and "evil" are not dimensions that interest them, and they certainly don't hesitate in casually killing complete innocents (like Shallan's coach driver and parshmen while trying to test/kill her before her being admitted as a Ghostblood). But in talking to her in Urithiru at the end of WoR, he also says, "You don't know who we are. You don't know what we are trying to accomplish." If the GBs are "trying to accomplish" something, that usually speaks to something beyond resource acquisition. He could be leading her on, of course, saying things that he knows will intrigue her - dropping knowing hints about her family, suggesting some kind of long-term goal. And of course, saying to a Lightweaver "let her find truth (with us)" is like throwing candy at a toddler. Edited August 6, 2020 by robardin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singer Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 On 8/4/2020 at 2:59 PM, clockworkspider said: While in all seriousness, I doubt this will be the case... I'm putting my spheres on May Aladar, for the memes. My thoughts exactly. Either that or she's a Kandra! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subvisual Haze Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 Teshav has been mentioned a lot in passing and has done a lot of scribe work for Dalinar. She'd make sense as a candidate. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honorless Posted August 8, 2020 Report Share Posted August 8, 2020 Wasn't Mraize in Ialai's service in Oathbringer? Why does he need Shallan/Veil to infiltrate the Sons of Honor to get to her? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innovation Posted August 8, 2020 Report Share Posted August 8, 2020 Has this been theorized? One of Shallan’s brothers. They would be close to Dalinar, and the Davar family has been known to be associated with secret societies. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Child of Hodor Posted August 9, 2020 Report Share Posted August 9, 2020 (edited) 23 hours ago, Innovation said: Has this been theorized? One of Shallan’s brothers. They would be close to Dalinar, and the Davar family has been known to be associated with secret societies. I haven’t seen it. That’s a good thought. It wouldn’t be someone in Dalinar’s immediate family, but someone close to one of them. Shallan’s brothers are very messed up and there are a bunch of them. It only takes one. On 8/8/2020 at 8:28 AM, Honorless said: Wasn't Mraize in Ialai's service in Oathbringer? Why does he need Shallan/Veil to infiltrate the Sons of Honor to get to her? I think she's gathering info for Dalinar more than Mraize. Mraize has decided he wants SoH gone and tasked Shallan with that. Shallan is Mraize's "little knife". Dalinar wants her to figure out what they are up to and arrest them or whatever. Both want them gone, Dalinar wants to know their schemes. Quote "They were a loose end, and even Radiant agreed that this task—given them by both Dalinar and secretly Mraize—was worthy. It was time to end the Sons of Honor once and for all." Edited August 9, 2020 by Child of Hodor 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aminar Posted August 9, 2020 Report Share Posted August 9, 2020 My bet is on a Spren owned by a Radiant in the Sons of Honor. Potentially a misguided Truthwatcher. I feel like they're the most vulnerable to joining cults in seeking the Truth and trying to speak truth to power. Much like the many people who believe conspiracy theories because they want to be finding the true villains/want things to be black and white but looked in the wrong place. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Maker Posted August 27, 2020 Report Share Posted August 27, 2020 (edited) I think the spy is another of shallan’s personalities that we have not met (and that shallan, radiant and veil don’t remember / recognise). I also think the assassin mraize sent is a 5th personality of shallan that surfaced momentarily to administer the poison. This is why Ialai is so resigned when she sees shallan. It’s all shallan. She doesn’t realise she is spying on herself and that she’s being played / playing all sides against the middle. Edited August 27, 2020 by Mr Maker Mistake 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted August 27, 2020 Report Share Posted August 27, 2020 1 hour ago, Mr Maker said: It’s all shallan. She doesn’t realise she is spying on herself and that she’s being played / playing all sides against the middle. This has been discussed but it is a quite negative and unrealistic portrayal of DID. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamskinner Posted August 27, 2020 Report Share Posted August 27, 2020 8 hours ago, Karger said: This has been discussed but it is a quite negative and unrealistic portrayal of DID. But not boring. There needs to be a bit of fantasy in a fantasy book. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyJim Posted August 27, 2020 Report Share Posted August 27, 2020 1 hour ago, jamskinner said: But not boring. There needs to be a bit of fantasy in a fantasy book. The people forming bonds with beings of conceptualized thought, giant swords and power armor, and ancient gods aren't enough? But seriously, having a secret personality being the spy feels really gimmicky, and I'd rather Shallan's character development be more focused on her and how she learns to deal with her condition rather than just some new personality twist. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchcry Posted August 28, 2020 Report Share Posted August 28, 2020 Ishnah has wanted to be in the ghostbloods since she first met Shallan. It's totally her.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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