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Okay, where is Restares?


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We now know the following: 

Shallan, Mraize and Dalinar all seem to belive that Amaram was in charge of the Sons of Honor until his death (:() at the end of OB. After that, Ialai has taken up the command. The assumption that Ialai is in charge, and has turned the Sons of Honor into the Sadeas Fanclub seems to be correct based off what the people Shallan speaks to is saying. 

I buy that Shallan and Dalinar believed that the Sons were run by Amaram. However, Mraize is awareof Restares power in the Sons. He mentions it in WoR. So either Mraize is lying/allows Shallan and Dalinar to believe the wrong thing, or something happened to Restares between the end of Words of Radiance and Oathbringer. 

If Ialai truly is in charge now, something has to have happened to Restares. The only other option is that Restares is allowing Ialai to be the face of the organization, similarly to how Amaram was their primary agent until his unfortunate demise. In that case, Ialai is just a puppet, and the Sons won´t fall until Restares is defeated.

What do you think? Is Mraize keeping information on Restares to himself? Has Restares died or left the Sons? Or is he still in charge?

 

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Great summary. What about this tinfoil that I've decided to go with because why not: 

Quote

“Initiation first,” the man said, gesturing to two others. They approached Veil—including a tall one whose robes came down only to midcalf. He was notably rough as he grabbed her by the arms and hauled her upward, then repositioned her on her knees.

Remember that one, she thought

Perhaps Restares was one of the people in this group. I'd guess the man who keeps talking to Shallan alongside Ulina, maybe even this strangely tall guy. 

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Restares was mentioned by a dying Gavilar as a possible boss for Szeth, as well as being in touch with Amaram regarding taking Kaladin's Shards and later, Amaram is urgently writing to him about Urithiru (by spanreed, both times, using Stormwarden glyphs in a phonetic transliteration).

So it sounds like Amaram reported to Restares.

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32 minutes ago, Requiem17 said:

 

Perhaps Restares was one of the people in this group. I'd guess the man who keeps talking to Shallan alongside Ulina, maybe even this strangely tall guy. 

I think the tall guy is Red, Shallan's spy in Sons of Honor, or at least that's what it looked like to me.

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I think the tall guy is Red, Shallan's spy in Sons of Honor, or at least that's what it looked like to me.

Agreed, makes way more sense. I'll go with Restares is that other man that talked a lot. If it's not, then hopefully Restares is the spy near Dalinar, and we just haven't figured out who he is. 

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10 minutes ago, Requiem17 said:

Agreed, makes way more sense. I'll go with Restares is that other man that talked a lot. If it's not, then hopefully Restares is the spy near Dalinar, and we just haven't figured out who he is. 

Well here's the thing. Do the SoA actually have "someone close to Dallinar" or just think that they do? Or by what definition of "close?"

Maybe one of the retinue of one of the other heads of state, who would prefer to see Ialai on the throne of Alethkar? Maybe one who's joined Dalinar's coalition in the Skipover Time, who we don't know who it is yet?

I mean, it can't really be someone inside Dalinar's true inner circle, privy to what he plans with Navani, Kaladin, and Jasnah, because that group would also be in on what Shallan and Adolin are doing, which is infiltrating the Sons of Honor. (Unless... They do know, and this "Kholin attack" at the end of Chapter Five is a ruse, and they are actually about to capture Shallan in a Reverse Mole maneuver...? EEEK)

 

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2 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

What do you think? Is Mraize keeping information on Restares to himself? Has Restares died or left the Sons? Or is he still in charge?

I think he is still in charge but his role has always been a more behind the scenes type deal.  He probably sees himself as a "shadowy architect."  He leaves the actually leading to someone like Amaram while giving him instructions and advice on what the group is supposed to be doing while handling recruitment screening and information.

26 minutes ago, robardin said:

Well here's the thing. Do the SoA actually have "someone close to Dallinar" or just think that they do? Or by what definition of "close?"

I am sure they have bought a few people.  My pet theory is that they have a chapter among the ardents. 

26 minutes ago, robardin said:

Maybe one of the retinue of one of the other heads of state, who would prefer to see Ialai on the throne of Alethkar?

I do not think such a person exists.

26 minutes ago, robardin said:

Maybe one who's joined Dalinar's coalition in the Skipover Time, who we don't know who it is yet?

We don't know of any such nation.  They are all spoken for except Shinovar and I think a defection from the void is too big a deal.  I suppose it could be one of the Natans.  They have a history of making trouble but still I don't think it likely.

26 minutes ago, robardin said:

I mean, it can't really be someone inside Dalinar's true inner circle, privy to what he plans with Navani, Kaladin, and Jasnah, because that group would also be in on what Shallan and Adolin are doing, which is infiltrating the Sons of Honor. (Unless... They do know, and this "Kholin attack" at the end of Chapter Five is a ruse, and they are actually about to capture Shallan in a Reverse Mole maneuver...? EEEK)

None of those people would do anything to endanger Shallan(except maybe Jasnah if absolutely necessary but why would she even bother?).

Edited by Karger
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 I am Restares Mwah ha ha.  Seriously, though seeing what is happening I am not surprised that he/she is keeping a low profile. If I were him/her I would secretly make my way to Urithiru to keep a close eye on my enemies.

Edited by Nathrangking
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6 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

 I am Restares Mwah ha ha.  Seriously, though seeing what is happening I am not surprised that he is keeping a low profile. If I were him I would secretly make my way to Urithiru to keep a close eye on my enemies.

According to the coppermind article on Restares we don’t even know Restares’ gender. Is Restares The Sibling?!?

Spoiler

No.

 

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I think he is at a secure location.  Possibly the holly enclave in Jah Kaved if I am right about him being an ardent.  It makes sense.  Remote location, good security, lots of information, probably easy access to the world's communication system.

Edited by Karger
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11 hours ago, Requiem17 said:

Agreed, makes way more sense. I'll go with Restares is that other man that talked a lot. If it's not, then hopefully Restares is the spy near Dalinar, and we just haven't figured out who he is. 

For all we know Restares does not exist and is a code name for a council running the organization.

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  • 1 month later...
On 4.8.2020 at 9:16 PM, Toaster Retribution said:

We now know the following:

  • Restares is human
  • Restares is staying in Lasting Integrity
  • Restares got the Honorspren to grant him asylum
  • Mraize claims that Restares true identity will tell Shallan what to do to him and it does not involve killing him or her

So, what does that mean?

On 5.8.2020 at 10:45 AM, Oltux72 said:

For all we know Restares does not exist and is a code name for a council running the organization.

Obviously it means that I was wrong.

But other than that? Either Restares must be a person everybody would recognise or Shallan knows him or her personally.

The prologue also mentions him, so he must have been on Roshar when Gavilar died. And it rules out Gavilar being Restares. Now, one possibility is Restares being a family member of Shallan's. And what could Shallan do, other than killing Restares? Reveal certain information about him or her to the Honorspren?

By sheer proximity to Honorspren I can come up with an obvious suspect and wild speculation

  • Vivenna - a.k.a. Azure: simple problem - why would she run the Sons of Honor
  • Aesudan: simple problem - she is most likely dead - is that a problem? Might she be a CS?

Or did Mraize mean what Restares is, not who? Might Restares be an obvious alen? An Aimian or a member of the Ire?

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On 8/4/2020 at 8:23 PM, Karger said:

I think he is at a secure location.  Possibly the holly enclave in Jah Kaved if I am right about him being an ardent.  It makes sense.  Remote location, good security, lots of information, probably easy access to the world's communication system.

He really one upped my expectations.  Getting into shadesmar(that one must have involved crossing into Cultivation's perpendicularity or taking an oathgate controlled by team radiant) then crossing the place itself(it is currently a war zone) to get to probably the most secure place on Roshar.

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Mraize claims that Restares true identity will tell Shallan what to do to him and it does not involve killing him or her

Technically he does not specify if killing him is or is not what he wants/thinks she will do.  I doubt Mraize would particularly mind his death if Shallan manages to extract necessary information first.

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

But other than that? Either Restares must be a person everybody would recognise or Shallan knows him or her personally.

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

The prologue also mentions him, so he must have been on Roshar when Gavilar died. And it rules out Gavilar being Restares. Now, one possibility is Restares being a family member of Shallan's. And what could Shallan do, other than killing Restares? Reveal certain information about him or her to the Honorspren?

Agreed.  Either Shallan has met this person or they are known generally.  It can't be a family member.  They are dead or accounted for.  I suppose her father could be a CS but that does not seem probable. 

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Aesudan: simple problem - she is most likely dead - is that a problem? Might she be a CS?

Odium claims she was consumed by Blightwind.  I suppose it is possible that she became a CS but the idea of her masterminding so much(Jasnah was convinced she was an idiot) and the Honorspren giving refuge to such a terrible person both defy belief. 

Who could it be?

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To throw a bit of spaghetti at the wall, my mind drew a line between Restares hiding in Lasting Integrity and Navani's penpal claiming that the Honorspren's judgement can't be trusted anymore. Is agreeing to shelter a cult leader part of why this person distrusts the Honorspren? 

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My immediate thought is Redin. He seemed like such an important character given he appeared twice and had a chapter dedicated to his condition that pointed it out.
 

Perhaps his Heterochromia is from an experiment moving void light with Gavilar? 
 

Shallan would know him as he came to the Davar house asking for the Davar to turn on Lin. 

 

I don’t have too much to go on. But it did seem like he was an Honorable person and that is likely to get the Honor Spren to help hide him. But that part is pure conjecture

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6 hours ago, Karger said:

He really one upped my expectations.  Getting into shadesmar(that one must have involved crossing into Cultivation's perpendicularity or taking an oathgate controlled by team radiant) then crossing the place itself(it is currently a war zone) to get to probably the most secure place on Roshar.

When did he leave? He may have fled as soon as he learned of the mysterious countdown.

6 hours ago, Karger said:

Technically he does not specify if killing him is or is not what he wants/thinks she will do.  I doubt Mraize would particularly mind his death if Shallan manages to extract necessary information first.

Extract information? Which exact information? Do they still not know what Gavilar did? That raises a point. How do you "extract information" inside their capital from somebody the Honorspren have granted asylum. If your mission is to persuade them to bond more humans, torturing a refugee inside their capital is rather low on the list of things you should do. So would be killing Restares.

Is she supposed to promise him amnesty in exchange for information?

6 hours ago, Karger said:

Agreed.  Either Shallan has met this person or they are known generally.  It can't be a family member.  They are dead or accounted for.

Are they? Given the state of Shallan's memory this is not something I'd feel confident about. Shallan's grandfather, whom she murdered? This is entering unconstrained territory.

And who is known generally? This is Roshar. They do not have TV news. How many people have their portraits painted and distributed? The kings of Jah Keved, Gavilar, probably the Sunmaker. And the list of those Mraize could be sure about ends not much later. And how good are the Ghostblood records? Whom can Mraize be sure about them having met Shallan? And how many of the are alive?

6 hours ago, Karger said:

Odium claims she was consumed by Blightwind.  I suppose it is possible that she became a CS but the idea of her masterminding so much(Jasnah was convinced she was an idiot)

The best camouflage is being considered an idiot.

6 hours ago, Karger said:

and the Honorspren giving refuge to such a terrible person both defy belief. 

They are honorable, not benevolent. If you have an agreement or claim with them, they'll honor it. And turning into a CS neatly solves the issue of how and why going to Shadesmar.

6 hours ago, Karger said:

Who could it be?

I am clueless. I am into wild speculations like: Shallan is a traumatized Returned, has regressed to being a child and Restares is her widower. Sorry, that had to go out.

  • a Herald: that just makes no sense - why would a Herald want to trigger a desolation
  • Wit - OK, shocking. But he might trigger a desolation if the time looks advantageous.
  • Aesudan - well she knew a lot about Gavilar's plans. I cannot help myself. A prime suspect. And Shallan is sure to have seen pictures.
  • Azure - guilt by association

I have the nagging feeling that I am overlooking something.

3 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

There is something very wrong with the Honorspren leadership if they are offering sanctuary to Restares, the charming person who convinced Amaram to murder Kaladin's old squad and steal the shardblade.

They did not offer asylum. It was requested and granted. If you have an agreement to that effect, they will keep it, regardless of other circumstances.

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8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

When did he leave? He may have fled as soon as he learned of the mysterious countdown.

How would he have learned?  I don't think Dalinar told Amaram.

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Extract information? Which exact information? Do they still not know what Gavilar did?

He says no.

Quote

“He was their leader, at one point,” Mraize said. “Perhaps their founder, though we aren’t certain. Either way, he was involved from the beginning—and he knew the extent of what Gavilar was doing. Restares is perhaps the only living person who did.”

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

How do you "extract information" inside their capital from somebody the Honorspren have granted asylum. If your mission is to persuade them to bond more humans, torturing a refugee inside their capital is rather low on the list of things you should do. So would be killing Restares.

Shallan is not proficient at torture anyway.  The GB must have something else in mind.  Shallan at least is Vorin.  Restares might be safe but politically he is out of options.  He has no power, no people, no money.  The one card he has left to play is information.  The GB's goal is probably getting him to play it.

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Are they? Given the state of Shallan's memory this is not something I'd feel confident about. Shallan's grandfather, whom she murdered? This is entering unconstrained territory.

Possible.  I doubt she can keep him alive though if the GBs want to kill him.

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Are they? Given the state of Shallan's memory this is not something I'd feel confident about. Shallan's grandfather, whom she murdered? This is entering unconstrained territory.

While I can't prove otherwise I think Brandon will probably want to avoid the cliche.

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

And who is known generally? This is Roshar. They do not have TV news. How many people have their portraits painted and distributed? The kings of Jah Keved, Gavilar, probably the Sunmaker. And the list of those Mraize could be sure about ends not much later. And how good are the Ghostblood records? Whom can Mraize be sure about them having met Shallan? And how many of the are alive?

I actually agree with you.  This one really is a challenge.

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

The best camouflage is being considered an idiot.

She also acted like an idiot.  Also Shallan never met her and Resteres is a he.

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

They are honorable, not benevolent. If you have an agreement or claim with them, they'll honor it. And turning into a CS neatly solves the issue of how and why going to Shadesmar.

As spren they have to keep an agreement.  However to achieve such an agreement the honorspren must respect you a lot(considering they don't trust humans and can't break promises).

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

a Herald: that just makes no sense - why would a Herald want to trigger a desolation

All male Heralds are also accounted for(except Kelek I suppose but given how cowardly he is I find it unlikley).

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Wit - OK, shocking. But he might trigger a desolation if the time looks advantageous.

He would also have no reason to hide in Lasting Integrity.  No one can kill him.

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Aesudan - well she knew a lot about Gavilar's plans. I cannot help myself. A prime suspect. And Shallan is sure to have seen pictures.

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Azure - guilt by association

Resteres is male

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

They did not offer asylum. It was requested and granted. If you have an agreement to that effect, they will keep it, regardless of other circumstances.

You assume prior agreement.  Given their attitude to humans I have a hard time believing he had one.  I find it more likely he presented himself as helpless and was granted asylum via false pretenses.

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37 minutes ago, Karger said:

All male Heralds are also accounted for(except Kelek I suppose but given how cowardly he is I find it unlikley).

Is Ishar accounted for? Stormfather calls him the "Herald of Mysteries" in OB. and he says that "he seeks death, perhaps that of every man." And Nale was gone for a long time seeking out Ishar when he went to talk to him in OB. 

In OB, they say he's the god-priest of Tukar (Tezim) and waging war against Emul...but is he accounted for currently? 

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9 minutes ago, Karger said:

Technically no but the Stormfather would probably know if he up and left.

Maybe. I think that's reasonable. But he doesn't seem to know where any other Heralds are, just Ishar, because Ishar curses him at night. 

I think probably, though, the stronger evidence against the Restares=Ishar claim is that I can't imagine Shallan would know who he was when she met him. 

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1 hour ago, Karger said:

How would he have learned?  I don't think Dalinar told Amaram.

By having spies in the war camps.

Quote

He says no.

Gavilar was good.

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Shallan is not proficient at torture anyway.

I am sure Veil would have ideas.

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  The GB must have something else in mind.  Shallan at least is Vorin.  Restares might be safe but politically he is out of options.  He has no power, no people, no money.  The one card he has left to play is information.  The GB's goal is probably getting him to play it.

That makes sense.

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Possible.  I doubt she can keep him alive though if the GBs want to kill him.

Why would they? As soon as the Knights Radiant know what he knows killing him is moot.

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While I can't prove otherwise I think Brandon will probably want to avoid the cliche.

I actually agree with you.  This one really is a challenge.

That circle of people is small.

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She also acted like an idiot.  Also Shallan never met her and Resteres is a he.

OK, is it possible that Mraize is speaking out of an assumption here? Or does he positively know how Restares looks?

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As spren they have to keep an agreement.  However to achieve such an agreement the honorspren must respect you a lot(considering they don't trust humans and can't break promises).

Or people you work for. Or you must have had something valuable to sell. Azure had.

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All male Heralds are also accounted for(except Kelek I suppose but given how cowardly he is I find it unlikley).

Yes

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He would also have no reason to hide in Lasting Integrity.  No one can kill him.

He would not have a need to hide there. But that does not rule out that he has a need to be there and explains it by hiding.

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Resteres is male

And Azure is considered male by most people.

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You assume prior agreement.  Given their attitude to humans I have a hard time believing he had one.  I find it more likely he presented himself as helpless and was granted asylum via false pretenses.

Possible.

EDIT: Into wild speculation
Let's try the Sherlock Holmes approach. Let's assume that the Ghostbloods have visual ID. But the Ghostbloods are not infallible. In particular they do not have a word by word account of the night Gavilar died. So they can be decieved. It is possible that somebody claims to be Restares, but isn't.

Gavilar is in Lasting Integrity claiming to be Restares.

Edited by Oltux72
more speculation
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2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

OK, is it possible that Mraize is speaking out of an assumption here? Or does he positively know how Restares looks?

Mraize implies that he knows R's real ID.  This means he is either wrong(in which case the plan is shot), lying(Why bother?  Shallan will have to know eventually for his plan to work), or telling the correct truth.

3 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

By having spies in the war camps.

You are giving Restares WAAAY too much credit.  Because Dalinar thinks he is drawing on the ground he deduces Renarin is seeing the future, figures out that he is in danger and withdraws to shadesmar?  Also Amaram is communicating with him during the end of WoR.  I don't think that Lasting Integrity is able to receive communication via spanreed and anything else is too slow.

7 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

I am sure Veil would have ideas.

Maybe but I don't think she can get them to work quickly.

8 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Why would they? As soon as the Knights Radiant know what he knows killing him is moot.

Loose threads are generally to be cut in this kind of game. 

9 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Or people you work for. Or you must have had something valuable to sell. Azure had.

That was a short term one off deal.  I don't think this is the same as amnesty from everyone forever.

57 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

And Azure is considered male by most people.

No.  The Kholin guard came up with that on their own.

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31 minutes ago, Karger said:

Mraize implies that he knows R's real ID.  This means he is either wrong(in which case the plan is shot), lying(Why bother?  Shallan will have to know eventually for his plan to work), or telling the correct truth.

I agree, Mraize seems like he knows who Restares actually is. His "you'll know what to do" when Shallan sees him line implies there is something unusual about him or that straight killing him isn't the best option / necessary / possible for Shallan. This seems to imply he knows Restares ID and perhaps something about either his background that Shallan will be able to exploit or his nature (Human, Singer, Sleepless, Siah Aimian, Cognitive Shadow, Spren, Dawnshard, whatever) .

Edited by Child of Hodor
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