RoW Chapter 4 & 5 Discussion

[Mistbornwithakitty]

Amazing as always, I could babble on forever about the immense, almost embarrassing joy these weekly installments bring me, but I'll spare you! 

I cannot tell for the life of me if Shallan is cruising for a bruisin with her multiple personalities or she has actually found a decent balance.  I think only time will tell, but I'm leaning towards bruising right now.  I wonder where this is going....

Protective Adolin!!!  Love to see it, even if it was bad timing.  Looks like we're getting that marital friction we all knew was coming.

It was such a whirlwind to see all these orders of Radiants in action.  I had trouble keeping up, but woweee have things changed in Roshar.  Also, the battle was unexpectedly cool.  I'm not usually a huge fan of physical conflict, but this struck a good balance, in my opinion.  

I'm just going to say it, the battle between Leshwi and Kaladin was....abnormal.  If you look back on the language used to describe Leshwi's fighting, it's mostly positive (saying things like she was graceful, pointing out her good moves, how she's better opponent etc).  Kaladin really seems to respect her, while he holds an almost casual hatred towards the other Singers.  Yet, he looks for her in battle.  You can't tell me this isn't going to turn into some sort of weird friendship.  I'm not the only one, right? lol.  

[GudThymes]

10 minutes ago, Mistbornwithakitty said:

I cannot tell for the life of me if Shallan is cruising for a bruisin with her multiple personalities or she has actually found a decent balance.  I think only time will tell, but I'm leaning towards bruising right now.  I wonder where this is going...

I think your gut is right on this one. The primary personality is losing more and more control and is becoming less stable. I'm thinking she's on track to have another splinter personality be generated from Shallan.

 

11 minutes ago, Mistbornwithakitty said:

I'm just going to say it, the battle between Leshwi and Kaladin was....abnormal.  If you look back on the language used to describe Leshwi's fighting, it's mostly positive (saying things like she was graceful, pointing out her good moves, how she's better opponent etc).  Kaladin really seems to respect her, while he holds an almost casual hatred towards the other Singers.  Yet, he looks for her in battle.  You can't tell me this isn't going to turn into some sort of weird friendship.  I'm not the only one, right? lol.  

OTP. What's their couple name? Lesdin? Kalahwi?

[LazyTurtleDelta]

14 minutes ago, Mistbornwithakitty said:

I'm just going to say it, the battle between Leshwi and Kaladin was....abnormal.  If you look back on the language used to describe Leshwi's fighting, it's mostly positive (saying things like she was graceful, pointing out her good moves, how she's better opponent etc).  Kaladin really seems to respect her, while he holds an almost casual hatred towards the other Singers.  Yet, he looks for her in battle.  You can't tell me this isn't going to turn into some sort of weird friendship.  I'm not the only one, right? lol.  

Reminds me a little bit of Dalinar and Eshonai in book 1 and 2 when they were looking to face each other each time they went into battle. Though this already seems to be a far more personal thing than that. 

[Caesura]

5 hours ago, Zelly said:

What's wrong with my precious cinnamon roll Kaladin?!??!?! Depression we know, but nightmares? DON'T YOU HURT HIM.

There may be something going on there, but most likely it's just a side effect/symptom of the depression and PTSD

4 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

4 hours ago, Singer said:

I'm calling it now: MAY ALADAR!!

Three years after her much talked about debut in the Cosmere, she will finally gain relevance. 

This is exactly where my brain went too... 

[Lightspine]

33 minutes ago, vegvisr said:

This part is super throwing me for a loop. So let's recap: 
 

But then: 

So The Heavenly Ones do need Voidlight to fly (and normally they will never run out), but if they are drained by healing or Lashing, they can't fly anymore. Interesting. 


- Of all the Fused we have seen, they appear to have access to a single Surge, if any. Never two, like the Radiants. 
- The Heavenly Ones can fly forever, and only use Voidlight for healing or Lashing (and possibly lashing themselves to gain speed?). 
- That new teleporting Fused we saw appears to be using Transportation or perhaps Transformation, but he did use Voidlight when doing so, because he kept having to refuel. 

So what is the conclusion here? 

- All Fused can use a single Surge, but some consume Voidlight to do so and some don't.  I don't like this, as it feels inconsistent. 

- All Fused can use a single Surge, but certain applications of that Surge are "free" while others cost Voidlight.   This feels right to me, but we need more info. 

- What we have seen from the Fused is a mix between Surgebinding and Voidbinding, and we don't know enough about VB to tell the difference yet.   This also feels plausible. It's so early in the book still.. Need more chapters T.T 

I think the Fused have perfect retrieval of voidlight and lashings. When Kaladin lashes something, he can retrieve some of the stormlight from it and cancel the lashing. Shallan does the same with her illusions. But we've never seen Kaladin try retrieve stormlight from a lashing on himself, have we? That's probably the trick here. I think that the Fused can fly forever because they can reuse the same amount of voidlight over and over, cancelling their lashings and retrieving all of the voidlight to be lashed in a different direction each time they change course during flight. Probably because they have gemhearts.

[Mistbornwithakitty]

2 minutes ago, LazyTurtleDelta said:

Reminds me a little bit of Dalinar and Eshonai in book 1 and 2 when they were looking to face each other each time they went into battle. Though this already seems to be a far more personal thing than that. 

*Whew* Wasn't the only one that noticed it, thank goodness!  And yeah, it does seem strangely personal... Not saying it's a new ship....but it's a beginning of weird relationship at some point.  Maybe Kaladin's going to have some second thoughts? 

7 minutes ago, GudThymes said:

OTP. What's their couple name? Lesdin? Kalahwi?

Oh definitely Kalahwi!  Sounds cooler.

Lol, just said this wasn't a new ship...promptly votes on the OTP name. 

 

[GudThymes]

4 minutes ago, Mistbornwithakitty said:

Oh definitely Kalahwi!  Sounds cooler.

Lol, just said this wasn't a new ship...promptly votes on the OTP name. 

hahaha, I agree. Definitely flows off the tongue.

5 minutes ago, Mistbornwithakitty said:

11 minutes ago, LazyTurtleDelta said:

Reminds me a little bit of Dalinar and Eshonai in book 1 and 2 when they were looking to face each other each time they went into battle. Though this already seems to be a far more personal thing than that. 

*Whew* Wasn't the only one that noticed it, thank goodness!  And yeah, it does seem strangely personal... Not saying it's a new ship....but it's a beginning of weird relationship at some point.  Maybe Kaladin's going to have some second thoughts?

Wasn't the whole Dalinar Eshonai thing about the fact that Eshonai was trying to stop the war in some capacity? They agreed to meet before she went all evil because of Venli. I wonder if there's a parallel intent here. Maybe Leshwi is trying to break ranks from the other Fused? Or combine the comments of Honor about the Heavenly Ones. Pure speculation but what if they were instilled with some of Honor's investiture and all of the Heavenly ones are trying to break ranks from Odium?

[Karger]

1 hour ago, vegvisr said:

- All Fused can use a single Surge, but some consume Voidlight to do so and some don't.  I don't like this, as it feels inconsistent. 

I think they all need Voidlight.

1 hour ago, vegvisr said:

- All Fused can use a single Surge, but certain applications of that Surge are "free" while others cost Voidlight.   This feels right to me, but we need more info. 

I think it is more that their surges or designed a certain way.  Some applications have a much higher cost then normal.

1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

Good point. Maybe this was the rare case where they couldn’t salvage any of it to regrow. 

Jasnah could find something the way she did with the blade.  You only need a tiny bit.

[Kered]

I don't think Jasnah would have resorted to "enhanced interrogation techniques". Or if she did they wouldn't be very useful. 

Jasnah: Time to turn up the heat. 

Ash and Taln turn to look at each other and explode into laughter

[Nathrangking]

7 minutes ago, Kered said:

I don't think Jasnah would have resorted to "enhanced interrogation techniques". Or if she did they wouldn't be very useful. 

Jasnah: Time to turn up the heat. 

Ash and Taln turn to look at each other and explode into laughter

"Bring out the Edgedancer." They lock Lift in a room with the Heralds they will break.

[Karger]

8 minutes ago, Kered said:

Ash and Taln turn to look at each other and explode into laughter

You could probably get Ash to spill immediately just by threatening to have Shallan draw a few pictures.

[agrabes]

This week's chapters honestly made me feel like Shallan is more stable than the previous chapter we had from her.  This week's chapters made it feel like the three personas all have a bit of an understanding - that they try to let each one come out for what they are each best at.  Last week, it seemed like Veil was in full control.  I still think that she's not in a "good" situation and still worse than the end of OB in some respects.  She's lost the small bit of self-identity she had in OB, that during OB she knew she was Shallan but wanted to become someone else.  Now, she thinks she is three people all at once, which is as we know a mental disorder.  But at least the three selves seem to be sharing nicely and there's no sign of a fourth being created.

I liked the interactions between Kaladin and the "Windrunner" Fused.  What I took out of it was that I think each Radiant order and its respective mirrored Fused order hold the same core values.  So when you look at an order like the Windrunners/Heavenly Ones because a big part of their values are protection and fighting honorably, you see that the Heavenly Ones act very much like the Windrunners, they engage in one on one battles, don't involve the innocent, etc.  I think this is why Kaladin is drawn to Leshwi - he sees a reflection of himself there.  What might have been, if a few things went different in his life and he'd wound up fighting on the other side.  This is how he would fight if he had landed on Odium's team.

I think what you'll probably see is that some orders like Windrunner/Skybreaker/Stoneward Fused will mostly be that kind of honorable villain that you fight because you ended up on different sides somehow, but wish you didn't have to.  The values of those orders won't allow their members to be overly cruel, they will be bound by certain strict codes.  Like the Skybreaker Fused would respect the laws of war and not harm prisoners, the Stoneward Fused would keep its word and generally fight defensive lost cause type battles, not go out and pillage.  Other orders have less rigid values on the Radiant side and that would open them up to more "evil" interpretations on the Fused side.  In Ch. 4 we see the Shallan triad basically say it's ok to lie and give a false oath so long as it's not to their own spren.  I imagine the Fused Lightweavers get much nastier.

Wild Theory: Moash will become a Fused of the Skybreaker mirror order.

[Karger]

5 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Wild Theory: Moash will become a Fused of the Skybreaker mirror order.

Humans can't become fused in the conventional sense.  I wonder what happens if you stick a human CS inside a parshe body*shudders.*

6 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Like the Skybreaker Fused would respect the laws of war and not harm prisoners, the Stoneward Fused would keep its word and generally fight defensive lost cause type battles, not go out and pillage

I personally can't wait to meet the Skybreaker fused.  I wonder what they will be like.  Evil lawyers?  Also they will use the division surge which makes me wonder what the Dustbringer fused are like.

[Nathrangking]

Just now, Karger said:

I personally can't wait to meet the Skybreaker fused.  I wonder what they will be like.  Evil lawyers?  Also they will use the division surge which makes me wonder what the Dustbringer fused are like.

Has Odium no shame? Evil Lawyers! Really What's next Politician Lightweavers?

[Innovation]

If each fused has one Surge, then who would the parallel for the Skybreakers be? Gravitation is for the Heavenly Ones, and I can’t see a Dustbringer parallel as a Lawyer. 

[Karger]

5 minutes ago, Innovation said:

If each fused has one Surge, then who would the parallel for the Skybreakers be? Gravitation is for the Heavenly Ones, and I can’t see a Dustbringer parallel as a Lawyer. 

This is why we can't assume we get 1 to 1 correlations.

[*{kara}*]

Yeah, what Karger said. There are no exactly parallel Knight radiant orders to Voidbringer orders, because there are 9 voidbringer types. So the Heavenly Ones are like Windrunners and Skybreakers, because they use void!gravitation.
 

I don’t understand why creatures given power by Odium have such a culture of honor. The Fused are supposed to be ancient listeners with a passionate hatred of humans. (correct me if I’m wrong) Does anyone have an explanation?

[Innovation]

4 minutes ago, KaratheEdgedancer said:

I don’t understand why creatures given power by Odium have such a culture of honor. The Fused are supposed to be ancient listeners with a passionate hatred of humans. (correct me if I’m wrong) Does anyone have an explanation?

I believe into is because Honor and Cultivation used to be their gods. I guess some aspects of their culture still remained when they turned to Odium. 

[Govir]

9 hours ago, Zelly said:

4.  Was the ruby Dalinar used to catch Neragoul was infused at the time?  Didn't Lil Larkin eat it? Or did it get infused after Dalinar did his Unity bit?

I don't think it was. I think Neragoul is a special case, since they normally inhabit people. So Dalinar enticed it to come close because of his Passion, then rejected it, and it siphoned into the gem. It's also been a long time since I've read the end of OB. Was the pillar of light after Neragoul (or was it just after Dalinar rejected Odium with "you cannot have my pain")?

[Karger]

27 minutes ago, KaratheEdgedancer said:

I don’t understand why creatures given power by Odium have such a culture of honor. The Fused are supposed to be ancient listeners with a passionate hatred of humans. (correct me if I’m wrong) Does anyone have an explanation?

I think this is part of their old prehuman culture that they maintain in order to keep sane.  Maintaining old rituals, beliefs, and hobbies are a recommended behaviors when working through long periods of isolation and or depression.

[theTruthshaper]

8 hours ago, Kalaksbreath said:

I'm pretty sure the metal Kaladin saw wrapped around Leshwi's spear is aluminum. Kaladin says she can block shards with her spear and the metal is described as silvery and that's the same way people describe nightbloods sheath so they do use aluminum.

This was an argument that they don't know about Hemalurgy. Hemalurgy aluminum is very OP against Radiants.

[FollowYourMuse]

5 hours ago, Lightspine said:

I think the Fused have perfect retrieval of voidlight and lashings. When Kaladin lashes something, he can retrieve some of the stormlight from it and cancel the lashing. Shallan does the same with her illusions. But we've never seen Kaladin try retrieve stormlight from a lashing on himself, have we? That's probably the trick here. I think that the Fused can fly forever because they can reuse the same amount of voidlight over and over, cancelling their lashings and retrieving all of the voidlight to be lashed in a different direction each time they change course during flight. Probably because they have gemhearts.

I agree that it is probably related to gemhearts, I think they hold the stormlight better, ie - do not leak as has been mentioned multiple times. 

[Gilphon]

I feel like it's also a function of Voidlight acting differently than Stormlight. Like Voidlight isn't constantly trying to escape the way Stormlight is.

[Lightspine]

35 minutes ago, FollowYourMuse said:

I agree that it is probably related to gemhearts, I think they hold the stormlight better, ie - do not leak as has been mentioned multiple times. 

4 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

I feel like it's also a function of Voidlight acting differently than Stormlight. Like Voidlight isn't constantly trying to escape the way Stormlight is.

@Gilphon is completely correct here. I extended my theory in this post, you should check out the edit at the bottom. There's a WoB there about how stormlight can't be perfectly contained.

 

 

Edited August 5, 2020 by Lightspine
Somehow I tabbed to the "post" button while trying to @ Gilphon. Whoops

[Kalaksbreath]

2 hours ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

This was an argument that they don't know about Hemalurgy. Hemalurgy aluminum is very OP against Radiants.

I miss understood what you were saying