RoW Chapter 4 & 5 Discussion

[Toaster Retribution]

Cord went to Aimia?? Okay... wonder if that will be part of Wandersail? Seems likely, I´d say. 

I also wonder what happened to Restares. Both Shallan and Mraize seems to believe that Amaram was the leader of the Sons of Honor, and that Ialai has taken that position. Yet we know that Amaram reported to Restares, and we know that Mraize knows that too, since he refers to the SoH as "Restares cronies" in WoR. So, either he is keeping information from Shallan, or Restares has died somewhere between WoR and now. 

Also, Brandon is not really doing a good job of making Leshwi intimidating. She has died twice now, and the only thing she could do against Kaladin was fly away. 

[Harbour]

The points that seem very important as Brandon seems to make a huge emphasis on them:

1) Something is bothering Kaladin. Its not the constant fight with Fused.

• he has strange nightmares
• he feels tired beyond regular fatigue
• he insisted on Syl trying to act separately
• he clearly need to love but something hold him back
• all this makes him a bit of an cremhole that push everyone including Syl away
• he uses the battles against Fused to leave his problems behind

I has some imagery of what is the feeling he has. Its certain apathy and condition of constantly being unhappy with everything and being annoyed with everything. I had those feeling sometimes too. It sucks. 

Was it because he actually need to find female soulmate?

Was it because he hate to kill Fused?

Was it because he realize he has to say Fourth Ideal but he cant and this makes him angry?

I see Syl interlude being directly tied into this global problem. 

2) There is traitor close to Dalinar. rust, Brandon gonna tease us with it all the book, isnt he? Im afraid that traitor isnt Taravangian but someone totally unexpected.

3) Brandon put first indication of problems between Shallan and Adolin. Shallan hoped Adolin will get that she need the time to complete her mission successfully and Adolin predictably failed it, being too impatient. I see her making some sharp remarks about that in the following chapters.

 

Also, so much tension and action in the first chapters, besides Brandon's explanation, made me think he chose to start the book that way because of the feedback given about Oathbringer first half being boring at some parts. I like what he did in RoW. At this point its way more juicy to read than previous books.

Edited August 4, 2020 by Harbour

[+Child of Hodor]

1 minute ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Cord went to Aimia?? Okay... wonder if that will be part of Wandersail? Seems likely, I´d say. 

I also wonder what happened to Restares. Both Shallan and Mraize seems to believe that Amaram was the leader of the Sons of Honor, and that Ialai has taken that position. Yet we know that Amaram reported to Restares, and we know that Mraize knows that too, since he refers to the SoH as "Restares cronies" in WoR. So, either he is keeping information from Shallan, or Restares has died somewhere between WoR and now. 

Also, Brandon is not really doing a good job of making Leshwi intimidating. She has died twice now, and the only thing she could do against Kaladin was fly away. 

Moash killed her with a regular spear, no powers, no armor. If I were a Fused I’d give her so much crem. 

[+robardin]

19 minutes ago, Kuram said:

I guess the theories of Rock being a different order are a little less likely, as he lashes a spear to Kaladin.  Still, if he's just a squire, I suppose it's still possible for him to go with another order.

Yeah, I was wondering this as well, if Rock was one of the Windrunner squires who had not been able to bond a spren.

[mosaab]

my theory is that the Fused get a continuous stream of voidlight that corrospond acordingly to how much is required to continually fly, and whenever they use more for healing,lashing or speeding then they are operating at a deficit, that can only be restored if they stop flying all together for a while. that's why they rarely lash or speed up.

[Kuram]

18 minutes ago, nonix said:

Do we have a WoB about the fused becoming savants? I would imagine it would be quite different since they go to Braize and get new bodies, and would having a gemheart change things? 

Brandon has said that surgebinders would find it near impossible to become savants due to the nature of the bond.  Fused being essentially spren strikes me in a similar manner.

[Friendshipspren]

 

1 hour ago, Cheat Commando said:

 

Glad to know that Taln and Ash are helping them (but then again, it was Jasnah who interviewed them... While I hope she didn't have to resort to it, I can see her using "enhanced interrogation" techniques)

I'm pretty the heralds won't be too bothered by torture since they have spent centuries on braize atleast. Unless Ash has PTSD.

 

Alright nice to see teft is doing good. I love that guy.

I think restares and ialai are smarter than that. It's probably a trap to trap any traps from dalinars side. 

Well so I guess dalinar could possibly drain the fused too . That's y they stay back. 

 

So since dalinar has a perpendicularity on command , it must easy to visit shadesmar . No need for the pools or oathgates. Hmmm couldn't he just travel to the place where lasting Integrity is supposed to be in the PR and get them there. Very Safe and fast . 

Although I wonder how soon it will be till honor's intent begins to warp Dalinar. 

I think the honorspren hanging around is the one syl named . Ok crackpot theory, but  I could see her wanting kaladin claiming she has seniority over syl. 

More likely she's after rock but rock has some cultural thing holding him back. 

So I think the gemstones in the fused spears have voidlight  in em , and by absorbing small amounts of it in combat with radiants , they create a investiture differential which the Stormlight flows into. Much like how Spren are captured as per the epigraph. 

Hmm I wonder if the radiants could create devices that work in reverse , probably won't work since the fused hold investiture better and the radiants rely on shardweapons too much. 

 

 

MOST IMPORTANTLY :

I'm really surprised the heavenly ones are so honorable since they aren't really analogous to windrunners.

I wonder if the surges first being used by the windrunners and skybreakers has made such that the surges themselves have gained semi sentiance and warp the user even if they are half crazy fused. 

 

Perhaps the ppl , human and singer both saw that ppl who used gravitation were honorable and this became innate to the surges themselves or atleast to access the surges. 

 

Also I wonder what interactions if  any they had with the Dysian simians guarding aimia. I mean one of them did kill off an entire ship in kazas interlude. I wonder if they would have been less hostile to radiants. 

Edited August 4, 2020 by PrinceGenocide
A little polishing

[FollowYourMuse]

1 hour ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

Gavilar was actually using them to his own ends, which makes much sense. But I now wonder why he was so adamant about marrying Jasnah to Amaram? I cannot think of reason about how it would benefit him.

For power and control over Amaram and thus a connection to SoH, just as he married Dalinar off for the benefit of his rule. 

[Honorless]

1) The Heavenly Ones' flight is not Void Lashing? They might have Lashings as a separate power? The flight power is inherent to them and doesn't consume Voidlight?

2) Ugh, how does Ialai Sadeas still have a power base after what happened in Thaylen City, ugh

3) For a second there, I thought Shallan  was going to reveal herself

4) Syl is jealous of any spear that touches Kaladin's hands, lol

5) She got the Shards from where?! 

6) Huh, Ash & Taln are being treated as normal people by Kal & Jasnah (this is not really a presumably because she's Jasnah and also she's the one who... captured them but technically a presumably because we haven't heard from her yet) and also presumably Dalinar. Hopefully they get some time to get their feet back under themselves. And we get more of their PoV

7) huh, Gavilar was using the Sons of Honor. Amaram knew more than some, as did Aesudan, and presumably Restares

Edited August 4, 2020 by Honorless

[FollowYourMuse]

37 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Also, Brandon is not really doing a good job of making Leshwi intimidating. She has died twice now, and the only thing she could do against Kaladin was fly away.

I agree on this, from the beginning with interactions with Moash, to those with Kaladin, she is kind of boring. 

 

[Gilphon]

• That line about Heralds plural being impressed by the Airship. So not just Shalash. Taln on a good day, or have one of the others shown up?
• It's weird to see Kaladin referring to Shalash by a nickname. I guess meeting the real people has kind of broken the idea of the Heralds as divinities for him.
• Shallan doesn't seem to know about Restares at all. She seems to think that Amaram was the leader of the Sons of Honor, and that Ialai filled the power vacuum after his death. That could be trouble; he's still a character that needs to be roped into the plot somehow.
• More emphasis on the Heavenly Ones having a thing about one-on-one duels. It really does feel like an Oath, doesn't it? Especially with other Fused not seeming to care about it.
• Fifty-four Heavenly Ones in a single place, and Kaladins doesn't seem to think that that's all of them. Even if we assume that they're the largest order, we still get that there are probably hundreds of Fused in total. 

[psc92]

Since I'm a sucker for using established powers in new and creative ways I was delighted to see Kaladin use that spear as a projectile. I am now expecting them to invent Gravitation powered ballistic spear cannons that can launch volleys of spears for long range combat. (Just don't stand behind the target in case they miss)

[book.spren]

40 minutes ago, Harbour said:

1) Something is bothering Kaladin. Its not the constant fight with Fused.

• he has strange nightmares
• he feels tired beyond regular fatigue
• he insisted on Syl trying to act separately
• he clearly need to love but something hold him back
• all this makes him a bit of an cremhole that push everyone including Syl away
• he uses the battles against Fused to leave his problems behind

I has some imagery of what is the feeling he has. Its certain apathy and condition of constantly being unhappy with everything and being annoyed with everything. I had those feeling sometimes too. It sucks. 

Was it because he actually need to find female soulmate?

Was it because he hate to kill Fused?

Was it because he realize he has to say Fourth Ideal but he cant and this makes him angry?

I see Syl interlude being directly tied into this global problem. 

This is major depressive disorder--the disrupted sleep, constant fatigue, withdrawal from loved ones, feeling of numbness (anhedonia), inappropriate guilt--which we know he's had since he was young. He keeps looking for an outside source of happiness but what he really needs (besides a therapist) is to come to terms with the fact that he can't save everyone.

[Govir]

Quote

If she’d been a Radiant, she couldn’t have sworn a false oath.

Your Aes Sedai is showing.

Quote

 

Dalinar had fully opened a perpendicularity, becoming a reservoir of Stormlight that would instantly renew any Radiant who drew near. It was a powerful edge, and one of the reasons they continued to risk bringing the Bondsmith on missions.

 

Now we know why they risk Dalinar on missions.

Quote

In Jasnah’s interviews with the two Heralds...

Yes. "Interviews"...

Quote

Including Cord, who carried Amaram’s old Shardbow strapped to her back and wore the full set of Shardplate she’d found in Aimia.

Wait. What? WHAT! (It's already too late, but I may stop reading these if the new novella is fully taking place before hand, and there will be potentially more spoilers for it [I guess it is an assumption this is a spoiler at least])

[Goatbringer]

Anyone else spot the Sleepless in the chasms beside Shallan?

[Honorless]

The gemstone draws in Stormlight from Radiants

While I did note the similarity with the epigraph where Navani mentions how to use gemstones to suck in spren, this also reminds me of Vyre's knife, and Larkin

Also that other fabrial that can disable Radiancy within an area

How are these instruments coming to play now? Preparation, research & discovery on Braize?

The Radiants need fabrials like that on their own side as well

[Gilphon]

So, the Sons of Honor have always been a bastardized version of Vorinism, which itself was a bastardized version of the real events, but under Ialai they seem to have become a bastardized version of themselves. 

Like, the original idea was to cause a Desolation to bring back the Heralds, which is vaguely adjacent to a thing that could happen. But now the Desolation is well underway, so they've been forced to get a lot vaguer about how the intend to bring back the Heralds. And although they talk about Radiants in general being a good thing, Ialai making them oppose Dalinar means that practice they have to work against the Radiants, so that had invent some story about Dalinar bonding a 'false spren', whatever the heck that means, in order to justify that. 

It really feels like Ialai's work to turn them into an anti-Dalinar conspiracy has brought them even further away from being anything real. And them not being used to being questioning as throughly as Shallan did despite being a fairly wackadoodle cult is not a good sign for the quality of their recruits. Plus there was that line about Shallan showing Passion, implying there's still some Odium influence in them. 

[Karger]

1 hour ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

Gavilar was actually using them to his own ends, which makes much sense. But I now wonder why he was so adamant about marrying Jasnah to Amaram? I cannot think of reason about how it would benefit him.

Probably because he wanted her married off to someone he could control.

1 hour ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

They seem to be a very weak society, especially compared to the Ghostbloods. If Amaram was their leader after Gavilar, I really do not think that Ghostboods/Skybreakers would care much about them.

Probably not.  Without Gavilar they are clearly no real competition to anyone.  It explains why he thought the GBs killed him.

1 hour ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

The one-on-one fighting is interesting, I don't understand why the Fused do that.

I think it is a remnant of their history.  The Shenayim were probably a group of singer champions back when they were singers.  Keeping to their old customs seems to be one those things that keeps them sane and dedicated.

1 hour ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

Roshone is improving, I wonder if he is going to get a redemption arc.

Have you heard chapter 8?  We have it.  It will explain a bit more about Roshone.

1 hour ago, Scriptorian said:

Those stormlight draining weapons could be a game changer. Though, to be honest, my mind immediately went to whether a Mistborn could use one to get the edge over a radiant.  The big question though is whether they can drain the stormlight from Plate...

Or if they can drain voidlight as well.

1 hour ago, Blightsong said:

Who do you all believe is working with the Sons of Honor to betray Dalinar? Taravangian?

Possibly a Vaden Highprince.  Possibly an ardent.

1 hour ago, ScadrianTank said:

Some thoughts: What these chapters told us is that a lot more happened since the end of Oathbringer than we assumed. Having fifty Windrunners is incredible and a lot more than we anticipated. This brings up some questions. Are the Windrunners the only Order to get a lot of recruits? Does this mean that there are more spren on Roshar than before the Recreance since WoR said that there were 15 of the Windrunners, or some spren "retired" following Aharietiam?

We saw a good 200 in the recreance vision.

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Also, Brandon is not really doing a good job of making Leshwi intimidating. She has died twice now, and the only thing she could do against Kaladin was fly away. 

I think that is kind of the point.  She has done nothing and yet Kal is still treating her like an Amaram level threat.

1 hour ago, PrinceGenocide said:

More likely she's after rock but rock has some cultural thing holding him back. 

I think Rock's problem is personal not cultural.

40 minutes ago, Honorless said:

2) Ugh, how does Ialai Sadeas still have a power base after what happened in Thaylen City, ugh

Even disgraced political officials are extremely hard to de power/punish.

Edited August 4, 2020 by Karger

[theTruthshaper]

I wonder why Kaladin could not recognize Aluminium. I would guess that he would be familiar with it seeing that it is being used a lot.

[Honorless]

Wait, so up next would be chapters 6 & 7, then 8 & 9? Though we already got a reading of 7 & 8?

[theTruthshaper]

Just now, Karger said:

Have you heard chapter 8?  We have it.  It will explain a bit more about Roshone.

I haven't but I did get a few spoilers

Spoiler

I just remembered that Moash kills Roshone. Is this going to be a thing for Moash? Killing people in the middle of their redemption arcs?

 

2 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Wait, so up next would be chapters 6 & 7, then 8 & 9? Though we already got a reading of 7 & 8?

We probably are going to only get one chapter from now on.

3 minutes ago, Karger said:

Probably because he wanted her married off to someone he could control.

I don't get it. If Gavilar was afraid of Jasnah opposing him, this would not help; and I can't see Gavilar marrying off Jasnah just because Amaram wanted to marry her.

[Honorless]

1 hour ago, PrinceGenocide said:

I'm pretty the heralds won't be too bothered by torture since they have spent centuries on braize atleast. Unless Ash has PTSD.

 

 

They broke the Oathpact because of torture. They all have PTSD to some degree

[Karger]

21 minutes ago, Goatbringer said:

Anyone else spot the Sleepless in the chasms beside Shallan?

Yep.  Wonder how many people know about the true nature of the Aimians seeing as Shallan did not ID them right then.

12 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Wait, so up next would be chapters 6 & 7, then 8 & 9? Though we already got a reading of 7 & 8?

Looks like.

6 minutes ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

I haven't but I did get a few spoilers

Probably.  I am not sure that Brandon can make me hate him more but apparently that won't stop him from trying.

6 minutes ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

I don't get it. If Gavilar was afraid of Jasnah opposing him, this would not help; and I can't see Gavilar marrying off Jasnah just because Amaram wanted to marry her.

Not just opposing him but figuring out his plans and then modifying them.  Once she is married it is kind of hard to hide what you are doing from your spouse.  She would also probably have to stay with him for long periods of time limiting her access to either records or the players at court.

Edited August 4, 2020 by Karger

[Harbour]

5 minutes ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

Spoiler

I just remembered that Moash kills Roshone. Is this going to be a thing for Moash? Killing people in the middle of their redemption arcs?

 

Yes and then

Spoiler

he will die in the middle of his own

 

[theTruthshaper]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

Not just opposing him but figuring out his plans and then interpreting with them.  Once she is married it is kind of hard to hide what you are doing from your spouse.  She would also probably have to stay with him for long periods of time limiting her access to either records or the players at court.

WokPrime spoilers:

Spoiler

So, you mean something like Elholkar/his wife tried in Prime?

 But then why would Gavilar be so insistent on her marrying Amaram? Wouldn't he try to marry her off to someone who wasn't related to the SoH?