Change in Surgebinding with Death of Honor

[GudThymes]

I'm currently rereading WoR and I came across a line that I felt like was quickly glossed over by the characters. I did a little bit of digging on the forums and have seen people discussing Honor's death and how it relates to Odium and the Shattered plains. However, I am curious as to how Honor's death and splintering would have affected Surgebinding.

Specifically, Shallan is talking to Jasnah in Ch. 6 and Jasnah says the following:

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For now, I would prefer you expend your efforts on learning this Surge [Lightweaving], as apposed to Soulcasting. That is a dangerous art, more so now than it once was."

Then Shallan nods and changes the conversation to Jasnah's mental health, with no mention to how Soulcasting has changed.

 

From the AonDor as well as Scadrial magic (when Harmony picks up the shards), we know that there can be fundamental changes to the magic system when the source of the Investiture changes dramatically (splintering or recombining/changing Intent). I'm curious to what this change is on Roshar. Without more thought on the topic my theory is that the previous limitations the Spren provided to the Nahel bond has been altered in some way allowing easier access to the Surges to Radiants with less Oaths (why it could be perceived as more dangerous, more unfettered access and less discipline = danger). I also think it may explain why we haven't seen Shardplate materialize yet as well. We know from Dalinar's flashbacks that there were many Radiants who wielded Sharplate, and so far no Radiant has on screen (despite most being around 3rd or 4th oath).

My theory is thus: The splintering of Honor weakened the Nahel bond enabling easier access to the innate surges of Roshar (voidbinding and fabrials also access these surges) while making it more challenging to access the Honor specific benefits (shardblade and plate).

Thoughts?

Edited August 3, 2020 by GudThymes

[Lightspine]

It's definitely probable that Honor's death has had an effect on the Nahel bond. Some stuff that Nale mentions points to this, and I've seen it discussed that perhaps five oaths is no longer a limit.
However, I think there might be a different explanation for how Soulcasting has changed; Shadesmar has become more dangerous.

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sufficientlyadvanced

It says that it's dangerous to travel to Shadesmar on Sel. Why?

Brandon Sanderson

It has to do with the Dor and the lack of an entity controlling much of the power Odium left in his wake on Sel.

Phantine

Woah, that's interesting. I had no idea Odium left little bits of his power on Sel... I guess it kinda makes sense for evil monks to be powered by pure hate, though.

Brandon Sanderson

Odium did not leave his power behind, one should note. He left several other powers which are now, to a large extent, mindless...

Windrunner

If you wouldn't mind answering, does Roshar have a similar problem, with Honor being Splintered?

Brandon Sanderson

No, Roshar does not have the same problem. There are some differences going on. (One reason being that the spren are far more extensive on Roshar, and provide something of a "release valve." The seons and the skaze on Sel are not numerous enough to fulfill a similar function. Though, of course, that's only one part of the puzzle. Raw power is dangerous.

It's one reason everyone should be thankful Kelsier was around on Scadrial.

General Reddit 2013 (March 11, 2013)

The spren are splinters of Honor and Cultivation, so this WoB makes it very likely Honor's death lead to an explosion in their numbers. Syl mentions that intelligent spren are much more common now than they were before the Recreance, so we at least know for sure that their members have increased. And we also know that some spren, such as angerspren, are extremely dangerous in the Cognitive Realm. In addition, the Oathgates no longer facilitate travel between Realms, so it's easier to get trapped in the Cognitive Realm—with Cultivation's perpendicularity being the only escape (although this is more of a danger for Elsecallers than it is for Lightweavers, who can't fully enter the Cognitive on their own). Since Transformation involves partially entering Shadesmar, as we see Shallan do at the end of WoK, the more dangerous nature of the Cognitive Realm could very likely be the reason behind Jasnah's quote.

[GudThymes]

5 minutes ago, Lightspine said:

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Windrunner

If you wouldn't mind answering, does Roshar have a similar problem, with Honor being Splintered?

Brandon Sanderson

No, Roshar does not have the same problem. There are some differences going on. (One reason being that the spren are far more extensive on Roshar, and provide something of a "release valve." The seons and the skaze on Sel are not numerous enough to fulfill a similar function. Though, of course, that's only one part of the puzzle. Raw power is dangerous.

It's one reason everyone should be thankful Kelsier was around on Scadrial.

General Reddit 2013 (March 11, 2013)

The spren are splinters of Honor and Cultivation, so this WoB makes it very likely Honor's death lead to an explosion in their numbers. Syl mentions that intelligent spren are much more common now than they were before the Recreance, so we at least know for sure that their members have increased. And we also know that some spren, such as angerspren, are extremely dangerous in the Cognitive Realm. In addition, the Oathgates no longer facilitate travel between Realms, so it's easier to get trapped in the Cognitive Realm—with Cultivation's perpendicularity being the only escape (although this is more of a danger for Elsecallers than it is for Lightweavers, who can't fully enter the Cognitive on their own). Since Transformation involves partially entering Shadesmar, as we see Shallan do at the end of WoK, the more dangerous nature of the Cognitive Realm could very likely be the reason behind Jasnah's quote.

I like your thoughts here! Although I don't think that the WoB is implying that there was an explosion in the Spren numbers. Even before the splintering of Honor the spren were more much numerous that seons and skaze.

I think what Syl says is more important here, and may definitely be a result of how Honor died while not changing the surges. I wonder though, has the risk of falling into the Cognitive Realm post Honor increased? I think that's an important thought to consider here.

 

10 minutes ago, Lightspine said:

and I've seen it discussed that perhaps five oaths is no longer a limit.

Can you link to any? I would love to read this as I think it could just be another manifestation of the weakening of the Nahel bond due to the death/splintering of Honor

[Weltall]

The way that Jasnah puts it, I think she was definitely worried about the dangers of Shadesmar and Shallan's inexperience with it. Consider how Shallan nearly killed herself when she tried demonstrating what she could do to Jasnah back in Way of Kings. Jasnah also does not know the details of Honor's death, so she's probably basing things more on some scholarly texts she's found that discuss Soulcasting which suggested to her that Shadesmar used to be less dangerous.

That said, we know the magic has changed to a slight extent since Honor's death; I suspect the biggest danger to Radiants is that Honor is no longer around to provide an external check on their behavior, hence the risk of another cataclysm like what happened to Ashyn is higher than it would have been previously.

[Lightspine]

2 hours ago, GudThymes said:

Can you link to any? I would love to read this as I think it could just be another manifestation of the weakening of the Nahel bond due to the death/splintering of Honor

Most of those theories are based around this quote from Nale:

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If the bonds between men and spren are reignited, then men will naturally discover the greater powers of the oaths. Without Honor to regulate this, there is a small chance that what comes next will allow the Voidbringers to again make the jump between worlds. That would cause a Desolation, and even a small chance that the world will be destroyed is a risk that we cannot take. Absolute fidelity to the mission Ishar gave us - the greater law of protecting Roshar - is required.

I'm having some trouble finding posts discussing this—maybe I'm pretty bad at searching this website—but I don't remember any going much more in depth than speculating that Honor's regulation was restricting the number of oaths, or something along those lines.

The main reason I referenced this was because it's the first quote that comes to mind when surrounding how Honor's death may have changed surgebinding. That said, we also have reason to believe that Nale is wrong about this, both because he doesn't actually prevent the Desolation and because this WoB throws serious doubt on his credibility:

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CCQ

I just read Edgedancer. I was just wondering... Did Ishar deceive Nalan on purpose or was he just wrong-- he had wrong information?

Brandon Sanderson

All the Heralds are insane.

CCQ

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

It manifests in different ways. Do not trust anything any Herald says. Ever.

CCQ

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

Nale trusts Ishar too much.

CCQ

Okay, but so did he do it on purpose, or...?

Brandon Sanderson

Um... So "on purpose" is a difficult thing when you're referring to someone with the psychology that Ishar has.

CCQ

Did he know what it was-- that it was a lie?

Brandon Sanderson

*sighs* Alright, I'll RAFO that until I get to him, but the answer is kind of a yes and a no. Okay? So there is part of him that knows and there is part of him that doesn't want to believe it. And yet the things he's been doing lately in Roshar are done because he knows what's coming.

Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)

(I think the last line of this WoB is talking about Ishar and not Nale btw, I think it's pretty heavily implied here by "Nale trusts Ishar too much" and "Do not trust anything any Herald says. Ever" that the Nale quote from above could be totally off the mark. That said, it might contain nuggets of truth. It's possible that he's right about something changing without Honor's regulation, just totally wrong that it could lead to a Desolation)

2 hours ago, GudThymes said:

Although I don't think that the WoB is implying that there was an explosion in the Spren numbers. Even before the splintering of Honor the spren were more much numerous that seons and skaze.

I think what Syl says is more important here, and may definitely be a result of how Honor died while not changing the surges. I wonder though, has the risk of falling into the Cognitive Realm post Honor increased? I think that's an important thought to consider here.

I guess it's possible that the splintering mostly manifested into the increase in intelligent spren, I just think it's also very probable that other spren have also become more widespread. I'm not trying to say that spren were rare before his death.

An increase in the amount of investure in the Cognitive Realm does make the boundary between Realms thinner, so it's very possible that accidentally slipping into it has become somewhat easier! Nice catch, I wish I'd thought of that.

So, increase in amount of angerspren or no, I think it's safe to say that it's easier than ever to get stuck in Shadesmar.

[GudThymes]

1 minute ago, Lightspine said:

It's possible that he's right about something changing without Honor's regulation, just totally wrong that it could lead to a Desolation)

I think you're on the nose with this. I interpret the quote and WoB in the same way. I totally see that Nale is right about how to bonds would change, he's literally the only person alive right now that is of the 5th Ideal, and the only one since the Recreance which pre-dates Honor's death. He would be the only source for how the bond would have changed. But he's insane.

It's my personal headcannon that each Herald went insane in a very specific way. Nale says this to Szeth:

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“I used to be able to feel, Szeth-son-Neturo. I used to have compassion. I can remember those days, before…” “The torture?” Szeth asked. He nodded. “Centuries spent on Braize—the place you call Damnation—stole my ability to feel. We each cope somehow, but only Ishar survived with his mind intact.

I believe that Nale is not an unreliable narrator like other Heralds may be, (although in this case I think he was misled by Ishar). Rather his decision making is compromised.

 

6 minutes ago, Lightspine said:

An increase in the amount of investure in the Cognitive Realm does make the boundary between Realms thinner, so it's very possible that accidentally slipping into it has become somewhat easier! Nice catch, I wish I'd thought of that.

Is this the case? I recall seeing a WoB somewhere that referenced the different way that Honor was splintered compared to the Selish shards. I know that the way Odium splintered Devotion and Dominion shunted the investiture into the Cognitive to prevent it from gaining it's own sentience. But, I thought that that wasn't the case with respect to Tanavast, he had more control over his splintering and shoved some into the Stormfather in the physical (As well as other places we don't know)

[Lightspine]

1 minute ago, GudThymes said:

Is this the case? I recall seeing a WoB somewhere that referenced the different way that Honor was splintered compared to the Selish shards. I know that the way Odium splintered Devotion and Dominion shunted the investiture into the Cognitive to prevent it from gaining it's own sentience. But, I thought that that wasn't the case with respect to Tanavast, he had more control over his splintering and shoved some into the Stormfather in the physical (As well as other places we don't know)

I don't think that it's nearly to the same degree as on Sel, but any increase in investure should bring Realms closer together.

Also, now that I actually hunted down the WoB about this, it doesn't need to be in the Cognitive Realm:

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Questioner

In our universe, mass and energy curve space. I was wondering if Investiture does the same or something similar

Brandon Sanderson

It does something similar. It draws the three Realms together. So it's got like-- Imagine a gravitational pull piercing Realms. Right? Of kind of--

Questioner

And that's how a perpendicularity works?

Brandon Sanderson

That's not the only way a perpendicularity works, but one surefire way to create a perpendicularity is a massive collection of Investiture in the Cognitive or mostly Physical realm. But Cognitive's weird, doesn't always work the right way. But there are ways to do it that way too.

Salt Lake City signing (Dec. 16, 2017)

Honor's splintering brought investure from the Spiritual Realm to the Physical and Cognitive Realms, so it should have pulled Realms together at least a little bit. It's spread out through all of Roshar, so it's possible the effect isn't too pronounced but it almost certainly exists.

 

7 minutes ago, GudThymes said:

I believe that Nale is not an unreliable narrator like other Heralds may be, (although in this case I think he was misled by Ishar). Rather his decision making is compromised.

I really like that interpretation of Nale!

[GudThymes]

 

1 hour ago, Lightspine said:

Honor's splintering brought investure from the Spiritual Realm to the Physical and Cognitive Realms, so it should have pulled Realms together at least a little bit. It's spread out through all of Roshar, so it's possible the effect isn't too pronounced but it almost certainly exists.

Hmmm, fair. Ok, I see this as a good counterpoint to my interpretation of Shadesmar and its dangers. Damnation, I was hoping I was onto something.

 

1 hour ago, Lightspine said:

I really like that interpretation of Nale!

Thanks  It's probably not unique but I came up with it myself.

[Eternal Khol]

2 hours ago, GudThymes said:

he's literally the only person alive right now that is of the 5th Ideal, and the only one since the Recreance which pre-dates Honor's death. He would be the only source for how the bond would have changed. But he's insane.

Nale would've bonded his spren after Honor's death.i dont think he wouldnt have any personal knowledge of how it changed

Edited August 4, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

Nale would've bonded his spren after Honor's death.i dont think he wouldnt have any personal knowledge of how it changed

There where 2,500 years after the Oathpact broke until the Splintering, and Nale was said to have accepted his order back when the Radiants where a big thing.

Edited August 4, 2020 by Frustration

[Eternal Khol]

11 hours ago, Lightspine said:

Since Transformation involves partially entering Shadesmar, as we see Shallan do at the end of WoK, the more dangerous nature of the Cognitive Realm could very likely be the reason behind Jasnah's quote.

When peering into the CR, like Shallan does, its like manifesting your soul into the CR and Spren and things can probably directly hurt your soul like that 

 

 

 

Bromo_Sapien

When somebody travels into the Cognitive Realm, what happens to their physical self? To their body? Like Elsecalling or through a Shardpool?

Brandon Sanderson

Well it depends on the way they’re doing it. The two ways you’ve mentioned transport the physical body. It’s actually creating a rift and slipping them through. But there are other ways that you kind of peek in, where your body’s saying it’s a little more astral projection-y in those cases.

Bromo_Sapien

So their physical self would also be in the Cognitive Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Bromo_Sapien

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

Which is weird.

Bromo_Sapien

As opposed to somebody like Kelsier who died and no longer has a physical self.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, right. Or when Shallan is Soulcasting and peeking in, and things like this. It can still be dangerous, because what’s happening is that little soul bubble there that’s manifesting into a version of your soul and then things can get at it in different ways and stuff. So... But yes, going in physically means you just pop between realms, and yeah, yeah…

Bromo_Sapien

And when they leave the Cognitive Realm their Physical self just leaves the Cognitive Realm the same...

Brandon Sanderson

Yep, mhm, yep.

Bromo_Sapien

Perfect.

Brandon Sanderson

Basically you’re transferring into Investiture and popping out of Investiture, so...

Boskone 54 (Feb. 17, 2017)

[Honorless]

The biggest change after Honor's death are the Bondsmiths, The Stormfather in particular, as he himself notes.

Beyond that, I think Honor commanded spren to choose their Nahel Bonds more wisely, regulating it. Now, all people have to do is convince a spren, and though spren are attracted to certain qualities that are commonly accepted to be good, they are sapient beings, free to choose whom to bestow the power of the Surges upon. We see that the Oathgate spren are still bound by their word to him.

 

Shardblade and Shardplate seem to be based on the level of Ideals sworn, we simply haven't seen the main cast progress that far onscreen.

As for Soulcasting, it very well may have been safer in the Cognitive Realm when Honor was alive, but I don't think that the system of Soulcasting itself was affected by the Splintering.

Edited August 5, 2020 by Honorless

[Subvisual Haze]

non-Radiant soulcasters slowly incur changes to their soul and physical body, becoming more and more physically like their preferred essence until their body finally converts itself to pure essence.  The nahel bond of Radiant soulcasters though seems to offer "protection" to their soul and body against this transformation.  If the nahel bond was changed in some way following Honor's death, perhaps novice Radiant soulcasters are more at risk of accidentally changing or killing themselves when soulcasting?

[Koloss17]

RoW spoilers probably shouldn’t go in the cosmere forum.

[GudThymes]

2 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

RoW spoilers probably shouldn’t go in the cosmere forum.

Can you reply with the specific spoiler in spoiler tags? I intended for this discussion to be RoW spoiler free, and would like to leave them optional so that everyone can join in comfortably. I just re-read the thread and couldn't find it myself.

[Koloss17]

42 minutes ago, GudThymes said:

Can you reply with the specific spoiler in spoiler tags? I intended for this discussion to be RoW spoiler free, and would like to leave them optional so that everyone can join in comfortably. I just re-read the thread and couldn't find it myself.

My bad, the thread began with “I was readin RoW..” and had a quote, so I made sure not to read it. I now read it and it’s not really a spoiler.

[Kingsdaughter613]

On 8/17/2020 at 6:05 PM, Koloss17 said:

My bad, the thread began with “I was readin RoW..” and had a quote, so I made sure not to read it. I now read it and it’s not really a spoiler.

I think that was a typo. It now says WoR. The problem with Keteks...