Matchmaker Gavilar

[+Child of Hodor]

Gavilar wants to set up Jasnah and Amaram. It seems like it's because he is in the Sons of Honor. Aesudan is also in on his schemes, did he set up Elhokar with her for this reason?

Why is he so obsessed with having his kids marry into his secret society without telling them what's really going on? 

Is he trying to gain loyalty from members of the Sons of Honor by tying them to him through the family line? We knowand Restares, who we are told is the head of the Sons of Honor, had some disagreement with Gavilar. Gavilar suspected Szeth was sent by him. Is Gavilar trying to take over the organization or create his own splinter faction? 

Edited July 31, 2020 by Child of Hodor

[Jenet]

Good question. I have lost my tiny respect for Gavilar, and I would very much like to see a collection of facts that we know of him as a father, to judge how he influenced his children and why he insists on such terrible matches for his children. And as you noted, without even trying to involve them in the business of the Sons of Honor.

Some things that come up in my mind:

We know that Jasnah had a hard time when sick when she was a little girl. Was she locked in a room alone? Who did this?

Jasnah seems to have some respect for her father when she talks to him during the feast before he was killed. And she grieved when he died.

She obviously hates Amaram. Why didn't she hate her father for forcing the match?

 

[+Child of Hodor]

2 hours ago, Jenet said:

Some things that come up in my mind:

We know that Jasnah had a hard time when sick when she was a little girl. Was she locked in a room alone? Who did this?

Jasnah seems to have some respect for her father when she talks to him during the feast before he was killed. And she grieved when he died.

She obviously hates Amaram. Why didn't she hate her father for forcing the match?

On Jasnah's (probable) institutionalization in Vorin temple as a child. Jasnah recalls being locked in a dark room alone.  Amaram, of all people, comments on how dark and crumby Taln's cell is when he rescues him from the Vorin temple in WoR.

Quote

 "Why must they keep you in such darkness?" Amaram said dismissing his Blade. "This is not fit for the lowliest of men" ... "I will have words with Dalinar about the way the insane are ---" WoR Ch. 88

My first reaction is she was bonding a spren and made the mistake of telling people that she was hearing a voice and seeing a person who wasn't there. Maybe talking about Shadesmar. People didn't understand and committed her. Could have been either of the parents or both. 

This probably gave her extra hostility toward Vorinism, she'd likely be an atheist regardless, but there's an edge to how she treats Kabsul at first meeting (good thing too). This also explains why she goes to such great lengths to hide her abilities as an adult. Both with the Soulcaster rouse and she seems to have shardplate, but even in a huge battle only uses it when no allies are around. 

Quote

"A glow faded around her, different from the smoke of her Stormlight. Like geometric shapes outlining her." OB Ch. 120

I am thinking spren bond was what happened, that's what turned Shallan's mother against her and probably what led to Szeth becoming Truthless. In OB he tells Nightblood he had a voice in his head similar to Nightblood when he was younger and it didn't go well. That said, this being Brandon, I am ready for it to be something totally different that caused problems for young Jasnah.

Quote

"She obviously hates Amaram. Why didn't she hate her father for forcing the match?"

She hates Amaram in the present day, she knows what he did to his own soldiers to get the shards.

She seemed completely uninterested in him in the prologue when they interacted. I interpret this to be there's no spark for her with him and she has no interest in becoming her mother. If she married she'd have to worry about ruling a stretch of land and other such things. Unmarried she's able to pursue her scholarly interests in a way Navani was never able to full-time. Jasnah hops around the globe to all the best libraries and does her work constantly. 

Jasnah was living her best life until she had to become Queen, like her mother, except she doesn't have a partner to split the duties with. Ah well, she can handle it. 

I love Jasnah!

[Kuram]

3 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

Aesudan is also in on his schemes

She was?

1 minute ago, Child of Hodor said:

Quote

"A glow faded around her, different from the smoke of her Stormlight. Like geometric shapes outlining her." OB Ch. 120

I am thinking spren bond was what happened,

Those geometric shapes are almost certainly shardplate.

Edited July 31, 2020 by Kuram

[+Child of Hodor]

3 minutes ago, Kuram said:

She was?

Yeah she comments on it in OB.

Quote

"Oh, Elhokar," the queen was saying. "You were ever so oblivious. Your father had grand plans, but you ... all you ever wanted to do was sit in his shadow."

"I continued your father's work! I found the secret Elhokar. Spren, ancient spren. You can bond them!"

"I've done what your father could not. Oh, he found one of the ancient spren, but he could never discover how to bond it."  - OB Ch. 84

In the RoW prologue she is being unusually friendly to Navani. She pulls Navani away from the fabrial expert who is holding a box. Later Gavilar mentions using a box to the Heralds. It seems Aesudan was trying to keep Navani from finding out why the fabrial expert is there. 

[Jenet]

Many good points here. I especially found the idea that Jasnah as a child was locked into a monastery cell interesting and plausible. I could not imagine Navani stand for someone locking her child in while she was screaming and crying, but when a hospital says they will care for the child and cure her, it's difficult as a parent to protest. And Jasnah "got better". That is, she learnt to shut up about what she could see and do. Just like Shallan and Szeth. 

And yes, I imagine how Jasnah would learn to be wary and hostile. Both towards the clergy and towards men, actually. Well, we will learn more about what happened to her eventually. It's just interesting to see what we already know. 

Her hostility towards Amaram though, must be more than what she has learnt from Kaladin and Dalinar. I feel it must be something that she has experienced directly with Amaram herself. She would not lose her composure completely as she did at the scribe's meeting unless there was something personal. And why is she so hostile to the street footpads that she killed with soulcasting? Shallan felt Jasnah was especially aggressive against them, and thought: "What was done to you?"

She has locked up her feelings almost completely, even Navani admits that. And she is quite reserved towards men in general.

I sense that there is more to this.

[Karger]

I personally think it was a way of keeping an eye on/controlling his children.  If he had managed to get Jasnah married off to Amaram then she would have had to support her husbands doings thus removing a potential SoH competitor and turning her into an asset.  Also it would be a good way to secure Amaram's loyalty.  Two birds one stone.

[+Child of Hodor]

1 hour ago, Jenet said:

Many good points here. I especially found the idea that Jasnah as a child was locked into a monastery cell interesting and plausible. I could not imagine Navani stand for someone locking her child in while she was screaming and crying, but when a hospital says they will care for the child and cure her, it's difficult as a parent to protest. And Jasnah "got better". That is, she learnt to shut up about what she could see and do. Just like Shallan and Szeth. 

And yes, I imagine how Jasnah would learn to be wary and hostile. Both towards the clergy and towards men, actually. Well, we will learn more about what happened to her eventually. It's just interesting to see what we already know. 

Her hostility towards Amaram though, must be more than what she has learnt from Kaladin and Dalinar. I feel it must be something that she has experienced directly with Amaram herself. She would not lose her composure completely as she did at the scribe's meeting unless there was something personal. And why is she so hostile to the street footpads that she killed with soulcasting? Shallan felt Jasnah was especially aggressive against them, and thought: "What was done to you?"

She has locked up her feelings almost completely, even Navani admits that. And she is quite reserved towards men in general.

I sense that there is more to this.

True! She does get incredibly pissed at Shallan for trying to steal from her, though. 

Quote

Jasnah came in, and though she made no accusations, her glare was so hostile that Shallan wanted to crawl under the covers and hide.  ...

"you have thrown away a very promising career. No woman will take you as a ward now. You threw it away." She shook her head in distaste. "I hate being wrong."  - WoK Ch. 50

Amaram was an acquintance who ended up being a murderer who was also trying to steal a blade from Dalinar in WoR. She's big mad! 

I think you are right that she saw through him years ago.This part of Jasnah's POV hints at her figuring out Amaram is not as honorable as he seems back in the day.

Quote

Navani nodded her eyes lingering on the doorway where Amaram had exited. Once, she'd pushed for the union between them. Jasnah didn't blame her; the truth of Amaram was difficult to see, and had been even more so in the past, when he'd been close to Jasnah's father. - OB Ch. 53

She absolves Navani for pushing for her and Amaram together. She may or may not give Gavilar a similar pass. 

[Nathrangking]

It would seem to me that Gavilar being ever the pragmatic soul that he was was as @Karger said trying to consolidate control. It may be possible that he was grooming Amaram and Aesudan to be his heirs. The two of them would replace Dalinar whom Gavilar lost faith with and potentially himself if something should happen to him. Creating a coalition to cement his power is a practical move especially if he has greater designs which could take him out of running Alethkhar for any period of time.

[LordTheodore]

1 hour ago, Nathrangking said:

It would seem to me that Gavilar being ever the pragmatic soul that he was was as @Karger said trying to consolidate control. It may be possible that he was grooming Amaram and Aesudan to be his heirs. The two of them would replace Dalinar whom Gavilar lost faith with and potentially himself if something should happen to him. Creating a coalition to cement his power is a practical move especially if he has greater designs which could take him out of running Alethkhar for any period of time.

Or perhaps Amaram was intended to replace Sadeas

[Karger]

1 minute ago, LordTheodore said:

Or perhaps Amaram was intended to replace Sadeas

Really he was supposed to be both of them.  Gavilar worked way to hard at an impossible task.  Trying to make a warrior as bold as Dalinar and a politician as skilled as Sadeas who was nevertheless a fool and a sycophant.

[Nathrangking]

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

Really he was supposed to be both of them.  Gavilar worked way to hard at an impossible task.  Trying to make a warrior as bold as Dalinar and a politician as skilled as Sadeas who was nevertheless a fool and a sycophant.

In fact he might excel in ways that Sadeas could not. Amaram was respected by many and had an impeccable reputation. Whereas Sadeas was a known quantity and has all of the charm of a charging whitespine. Amaram is if anything an upgrade on the prior model. He is a sycophant and has qualities that would give him opportunities that he perhaps does not currently have.

[Karger]

37 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

Amaram was respected by many and had an impeccable reputation

Impeccable to everyone except Sadeas, Adolin(and eventually Kaladin Dalinar and everyone else).

38 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

Whereas Sadeas was a known quantity and has all of the charm of a charging whitespine

Sadeas could be charming when it suited him.  I think the main problem with Amaram is getting him to do whatever you want while at the same time making him intelligent, innovating and capable.

[Jenet]

Hm. It's always difficult to create awesomeness in others. To force-grow it. Awesomeness needs to grow independantly. i guess Gavilar was not much for independence in others.

[LordTheodore]

One thing we have to remember about Gavilar is that the Stormfather chose him to be a bondsmith which means he must have the potential for radiance

[Nathrangking]

Just now, Karger said:

Impeccable to everyone except Sadeas, Adolin(and eventually Kaladin Dalinar and everyone else).

Sadeas could be charming when it suited him.  I think the main problem with Amaram is getting him to do whatever you want while at the same time making him intelligent, innovating and capable.

I'll grant you that Sadeas could be charming when necessary and that Sadeas was aware of his true nature, but let's consider. Sadeas has a reputation of brutality he may have the charm, but I think when it comes down to it he would be too much the blunt instrument. The darker side of Amaram rarely showed. It took Kaladin's extreme reaction, Dalinar's trust, and test to reveal his true nature. Everyone is pretty aware that if given the chance Sadeas will tear out their throats. He is one who can be charming, but he is known to be a politician who is ready to win at all costs. Ialai was I think the true politician. The subtlety I think was hers. He is dangerous, but she was worse. Amaram was a soldier of great skill, but just that. For all appearances he was not playing their game of intrigue. When one does not know that you are playing the game they are disadvantaged.

[GudThymes]

4 minutes ago, LordTheodore said:

One thing we have to remember about Gavilar is that the Stormfather chose him to be a bondsmith which means he must have the potential for radiance

Did he? The Stormfather chose Gavilar to receive visions, I'm not fully convinced that the Stormfather wanted to make Gavilar a bondsmith. I always interpreted the decision as Gavilar being in a place of power most likely to be able to unify Roshar and prepare them, then deferred the visions to Dalinar as he became the most powerful man in Alethkar. (Let's not even allow Elothkar that title).

I always read the bonding of Dalinar to the Stormfather as something the Stormfather did not want to happen but something that Dalinar was able to take.

[+Child of Hodor]

37 minutes ago, GudThymes said:

Did he? The Stormfather chose Gavilar to receive visions, I'm not fully convinced that the Stormfather wanted to make Gavilar a bondsmith. I always interpreted the decision as Gavilar being in a place of power most likely to be able to unify Roshar and prepare them, then deferred the visions to Dalinar as he became the most powerful man in Alethkar. (Let's not even allow Elothkar that title).

I always read the bonding of Dalinar to the Stormfather as something the Stormfather did not want to happen but something that Dalinar was able to take.

 Stormfather was ordered to find people to bond and to show the visions to. He is not a great judge of character when he isn't bonded though, so him choosing someone doesn't necessarily mean they are a good person. Gavilar had been on the Bondsmith path longer than Dalinar was according to a pre-Oathbringer WoB.

 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/122/#e3316

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/35/#e2509

Dalinar stuck around long enough, acted Bondsmith-like long enough to progress the bond and say the words. Stormfather didn't want to bond anyone, but he has to, Honor ordered him to essentially. 

"I was given this leave: to choose those who would best be served by the visions". He paused, then grudgingly continued. "To choose a Bondsmith" - OB Ch. 28

 

I think this is all part of Tanavast's (Honor's Vessel) succession plan. He was dying he made the Vision for the Stormfather to show to people, his Cognitive Shadow (mind ghost) was absorbed by the Stormfather. This connected the Stormfather to Honor's remnants after Odium splintered him. Then a Bondsmith bonds the Stormfather, which connects them to the remnants of honor and they use their power of Adhesion to put the pieces of Honor back together. This is how Dalinar (briefly) formed the perpendicularity at the end of Oathbringer. 

 

Edited July 31, 2020 by Child of Hodor

[GudThymes]

11 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

"I was given this leave: to choose those who would best be served by the visions". He paused, then grudgingly continued. "To choose a Bondsmith" - OB Ch. 28

Awww man. Thank you for this though, I missed that on my readthroughs.

 

13 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

 

I think this is all part of Tanavast's (Honor's Vessel) succession plan. He was dying he made the Vision for the Stormfather to show to people, his Cognitive Shadow (mind ghost) was absorbed by the Stormfather. This connected the Stormfather to Honor's remnants after Odium splintered him. Then a Bondsmith bonds the Stormfather, which connects them to the remnants of honor and they use their power of Adhesion to put the pieces of Honor back together. This is how Dalinar (briefly) formed the perpendicularity at the end of Oathbringer. 

Yeah, I'm on board with that. Hopefully Brandon will give us more about Tanavast and his story, but this theory makes a lot of sense to me -- Leras had a lot of time to set a plan in motion don't see why Honor couldn't have set up a succession plan as well (although I would prefer if it didn't repeat in that way.) 

[Toaster Retribution]

9 hours ago, Jenet said:

She obviously hates Amaram. Why didn't she hate her father for forcing the match?

For most people, hating their parents is probably harder than hating other wierdos.

As for OPs idea on Aesudan, her being in SoH has been brought up earlier. There is a theory that she is in fact Restares daughter. I have always liked that one.

[+Child of Hodor]

3 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

For most people, hating their parents is probably harder than hating other wierdos.

As for OPs idea on Aesudan, her being in SoH has been brought up earlier. There is a theory that she is in fact Restares daughter. I have always liked that one.

Yeah, since OB I've assumed she was part of SoH, probably one of the unnamed women in the meeting Eshonai stumbled into.  It's just I had previously figured Gavilar brought her in on SoH stuff after she became part of the family. Not until this week did it dawn on me that it makes more sense the other way around. 

Hadn't seen that theory on her being the daughter of Restares. Makes a lot of sense. 

[Toaster Retribution]

13 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Hadn't seen that theory on her being the daughter of Restares. Makes a lot of sense. 

Here it is: