Earth names

[PleatherDuster]

In Mistborn Era 2 there are characters with Earth names: Wayne, Miles...and a couple others I think. Traditional spellings even. That seemed so strange to me. I can't think of any other characters in Sanderson's books that have names like that. They always tend to have great fantasy names--very distinct. Makes be wonder about Earth-Cosmere connections.

[Frustration]

8 minutes ago, PleatherDuster said:

 Makes be wonder about Earth-Cosmere connections.

Not happening, Brandon has said Earth is not Cosmere.

[Darkfinder]

Its not because earth is in the cosmere because we no it isn't, it is mainly because Scadrial is an earth analogue. Even in era one most of the names were French or Germanic names and words.

[Weltall]

31 minutes ago, PleatherDuster said:

Makes be wonder about Earth-Cosmere connections.

Earth is not and never will be Cosmere because it causes way too many worldbuilding issues. The reason Scadrial seems so Earth-like is because Brandon deliberately set it up to be the Earth analogue. Technically there's also Yolen but it has some funky things going on, so Scadrial (which Preservation and Ruin deliberately patterned after the non-fain bits of Yolen) ends up being the closest to Earth by default.

Edited July 30, 2020 by Weltall

[+Harrycrapper]

"Earth names" is a bit too general, I think you mean traditional western/Christian names. Also, Threnody has some as well; Chesterton and William Ann Montane for example. 

[PleatherDuster]

On 7/30/2020 at 6:59 PM, Harrycrapper said:

"Earth names" is a bit too general, I think you mean traditional western/Christian names. 

Yes, this!  And I thought of another: Zane.

 

On 7/30/2020 at 6:54 PM, Darkfinder said:

Its not because earth is in the cosmere because we no it isn't, it is mainly because Scadrial is an earth analogue. Even in era one most of the names were French or Germanic names and words.

I had heard that there was no Earth-Cosmere connection. But the naming choices still strike me as interesting, since it seems almost intentional. Sort of reminds me of when he drops in mentions of "Earth" food or animals (i.e. Horses, Strawberries, Chickens) in Stormlight Archive. But perhaps that's meant to be a tie into Mistoborn/Scadrial, if that is serving as an Earth analogue... 

[GudThymes]

3 minutes ago, PleatherDuster said:

I had heard that there was no Earth-Cosmere connection. But the naming choices still strike me as interesting, since it seems almost intentional.

It is intentional. Scadrial is meant to be the Earth analogue in the Cosmere, Brandon has said that "if you can find it on Earth, it's likely on Scadrial" (or something very similar). It's much easier to tell a story if the audience is already familiar with the world, so Brandon deliberately chose to make the setting Earth equivalent, but not Earth.

 

5 minutes ago, PleatherDuster said:

Sort of reminds me of when he drops in mentions of "Earth" food or animals (i.e. Horses, Strawberries, Chickens) in Stormlight Archive. But perhaps that's meant to be a tie into Mistoborn/Scadrial, if that is serving as an Earth analogue... 

So, this is somewhat similar, given that we are in the Cosmere thread I'm not going to spoiler tag this, but:

The human's in SA are refugees from Ashyn (a more Earthlike planet). So the food and animals that they refer to really are comparable to the Earth equivalents. One thing to note, is that the Rosharians refer to all birds as "chickens".

Hope this helps. 

[Weltall]

Scadrial being the most Earth-like world doesn't mean that everything seen in the Cosmere that would be familiar to us is from there. Leras and Ati patterned Scadrial's biosphere after the non-fain parts of Yolen (ie the bits that are like Earth) so instances of Earth species on other worlds are much more likely to have come from Yolen, either because they were brought there by early settlers or because Adonalsium (or later a Shard) set things up that way.

As an example, we also see grapes on Taldain which are used to make wine despite the environment of Dayside being horrible for wine production and it's unlikely in the extreme that those would have occurred naturally. Meanwhile we know that when someone talks about 'wine' or 'chickens' on Roshar, they're using terms that don't mean the same thing to the characters as they do to us. Most Rosharan wine isn't made from anything resembling grapes but the term persists for any alcoholic beverage (and some that aren't) and every bird is a chicken, because those terms were remembered when others like 'whiskey' or 'parrot' have been forgotten.

This WoB is illustrative:

Quote

Questioner

From what I understand, Ruin and Preservation create the world together, and they created humanity as copies of the original humankind. So how did they give Allomancy to Scadrial?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. So the magic systems are kind of built into the setting and the world. And there are certain natural pathways that exist, in the same way there are certain natural pathways for them to create life. Which is my explanation for why life is so similar on all the different planets, is that they're following natural pathways, and these magics are kind of the same way. For instance, Lightweaving predates the Shattering of Adonalsium. A lot of these other things are suggestive of magics that existed before that were built around Adonalsium. They weren't 100% created by the Shards, but they also do have the Shards' influence on them.

Skyward San Diego signing (Nov. 7, 2018)

 

Edited August 3, 2020 by Weltall

[PleatherDuster]

On 8/3/2020 at 1:41 PM, GudThymes said:

he human's in SA are refugees from Ashyn (a more Earthlike planet). So the food and animals that they refer to really are comparable to the Earth equivalents. One thing to note, is that the Rosharians refer to all birds as "chickens".

 

Interesting. I had wondered about the Rosharian people. I assume they originated in the Shinovar region? Seems like most of the "Earth" animals are associated with the Shin. I'm re-reading WoR right now, and the "chicken" references never fail to make me laugh. 

[+robardin]

6 hours ago, PleatherDuster said:

I'm re-reading WoR right now, and the "chicken" references never fail to make me laugh. 

The word "chicken" is just one of those inherently funny words (what do you know, Wikipedia even has an entry under that heading).

I used to make my children laugh when they were pre-schoolers just by staring at them and solemnly intoning it with a long, dramatic pause. "Hey, <T>." "What?" "....Chicken." After a while they'd just start giggling madly when I stared at them silently, and then exclaim "CHICKEN!" themselves.

Ah, little kids are the best. (They're college aged now... sniff)

Even better was when one of their uncles did a call-and-response type of joke with them.

"Guess what?"

"What?"

"Chicken butt."

Combining "chicken" with "butt" is beyond preschooler comedy gold, it's platinum!

[Frustration]

On 8/5/2020 at 1:16 PM, robardin said:

Combining "chicken" with "butt" is beyond preschooler comedy gold, it's platinum!

*Mutters something about gold being worth more*

[+robardin]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

*Mutters something about gold being worth more*

Not in D&D it isn't, LOL!

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, robardin said:

Not in D&D it isn't, LOL!

Roll persuasion.

[Weltall]

On 8/5/2020 at 6:06 AM, PleatherDuster said:

Interesting. I had wondered about the Rosharian people. I assume they originated in the Shinovar region? Seems like most of the "Earth" animals are associated with the Shin.

Have you finished Oathbringer yet?

[PleatherDuster]

Yes, but I remember nothing! I'm fine with spoilers, though. Doing a re-read of the series in preparation for RoW.

Edited August 7, 2020 by PleatherDuster

[Weltall]

Okay then, quick refresher: The initial population of humans on Roshar were refugees from Ashyn, which was devastated by use of the Dawnshards and/or a version of magic manipulating the Surges. They were accepted by the singers and given a region where the plants and animals they brought with them could survive, Shinovar. That's why the region is so much more earthlike and why species we recognize like horses (aside from the Ryshadium, who adapted to Roshar via a spren bond) and birds are found there.

There are other human groups who arrived later and from other worlds (chiefly the Iriali) but we don't have a lot of details yet.

[+robardin]

On 8/7/2020 at 2:09 PM, Weltall said:

Okay then, quick refresher: The initial population of humans on Roshar were refugees from Ashyn, which was devastated by use of the Dawnshards and/or a version of magic manipulating the Surges. They were accepted by the singers and given a region where the plants and animals they brought with them could survive, Shinovar. That's why the region is so much more earthlike and why species we recognize like horses (aside from the Ryshadium, who adapted to Roshar via a spren bond) and birds are found there.

There are other human groups who arrived later and from other worlds (chiefly the Iriali) but we don't have a lot of details yet.

Also: the people coming from Ashyn brought their God with them, the God of the Void, Odium. "He was your God before you turned to Honor."

[Iarwainiel I]

On 8/3/2020 at 1:41 PM, GudThymes said:

It is intentional. Scadrial is meant to be the Earth analogue in the Cosmere, Brandon has said that "if you can find it on Earth, it's likely on Scadrial" (or something very similar). It's much easier to tell a story if the audience is already familiar with the world, so Brandon deliberately chose to make the setting Earth equivalent, but not Earth.

This made me think of what John Williams said, back in the day, about the soundtrack he composed for the very first (1977) Star Wars movie. IIRC, he said that he chose to use symphonic music, instead of techno/synthesized, because the movie was otherworldly enough on its own - to have futuristic music would distract from the film itself. He felt that the traditional music would help people (remember it was the 70s) feel more at home/at ease in "a galaxy far, far away." I wonder if Brandon used American-sounding names for a similar reason - like a touchpoint of the mundane in the middle of a fantasy story. Interesting point!

Edited August 20, 2020 by Iarwainiel

[Weltall]

28 minutes ago, Iarwainiel said:

I wonder if Brandon used American-sounding names for a similar reason - like a touchpoint of the mundane in the middle of a fantasy story. Interesting point!

Kelsier and Vin are American-sounding?

But yes, Brandon did mention that Scadrial is meant to be 'familiar' so it's broadly similar to the John Williams example. By the by, Williams had excellent taste when it came to what compositions he took cues from. Anyone who looks at Holst and Dvorak for inspiration and make extensive use of Wagnerian leitmotifs is a cool guy in my book. xD

[+Krox]

6 hours ago, Weltall said:

Kelsier and Vin are American-sounding?

Only in the events of the Wolfenstein games where Germany won WW2 ;-)

[Hoidolasium]

On 8/20/2020 at 3:01 PM, robardin said:

Also: the people coming from Ashyn brought their God with them, the God of the Void, Odium. "He was your God before you turned to Honor."

He followed Honor, who was the God that was worshipped on Ashyn. He wanted to Shatter Honor but Cultivation & Honor trapped him on Roshar.

[+robardin]

5 hours ago, Hoidolasium said:

He followed Honor, who was the God that was worshipped on Ashyn. He wanted to Shatter Honor but Cultivation & Honor trapped him on Roshar.

We don't know that part, do we? Only that whatever happened on Ashyn resulted in the catastrophic destruction of most of that world via "Surges" and "use of the Dawnshards", with a large portion of the people there evacuating to Roshar afterwards, and that Odium came to Roshar with them (timing-wise, not like the larva of an invasive species... I don't think...).

Whether or not Honor and/or Cultivation were already present and worshiped by the singers in a pre-Odium Roshar, or vice versa that Honor and/or Cultivation were known and worshiped on Ashyn before its destruction and the flight of most of its human population, are not clear.

Roshar, its highstorm based ecoysystem, and the singers (and other large, gemhearted creatures) all pre-date the Shattering of Adolansium, so one would assume that Asyhn (and Braize) are that old as well.

And we have it straight from the Ancient Daughter, Sylphrena: "I wasn't alive then, but I know this truth. [Odium] was your first god, before you turned to Honor."

Edited August 23, 2020 by robardin

[Hoidolasium]

4 minutes ago, robardin said:

whatever happened on Ashyn resulted in the catastrophic destruction of most of that world via "Surges" and "use of the Dawnshards",

That makes sense, I just always assumed they were some form of Surge and not Voidbinding

[Iarwainiel I]

 Agree wholeheartedly @Weltall - Mahler too, & IMO a bit of Bruckner, tho not sure Williams has said anything about the latter as inspiration. (Glad to find a fellow classical fan here on the Shard - I suspect there are a lot of us! These forums are the best - I find out about new music etc. all the time on the Entertainment threads!)