Veil and radiant

[agrabes]

On 9/1/2020 at 9:07 AM, Ailvara said:

Well, both the existence of the 4th alter that terrifies Shallan and the fact that 'Shallan' is the fakest of them all has just been spelled out:

 

To be fair though, what we saw was that Shallan believes the "Shallan" persona is the fakest.  She says this during a time when she's in a bad state of mind and full of self doubt.  It's not nothing, for sure.  But it's not a 100% confirmation either.  I'd put it at a 30% chance of being correct that the "Shallan" persona is completely fake or mostly fake, but that's just mostly based on my own intuition. 

The biggest point of evidence against "Shallan" actually being fakest is that Radiant is really not a full human personality.  It's hard to imagine someone who was "just" Radiant, the personality is so paper thin it really seems to only represent the concept of being honorable and noble.  If there is a "fakest" it logically has to be Radiant.  Veil could still in theory be "most real" but not Radiant.

The Shallan we know is a person with a ton of self doubt, this has been consistent in her character throughout the whole series.  She's the kind of person who thinks of herself as fake or less than, even though there's no truth to it.  But, no sense rehashing that.  I think this coming up in Ch. 9 does make it feel like we may get an answer to the question in RoW though.

 

Regarding the "Formless" personality - The book is clearly implying that her inability to face her fears and tell the truth to Adolin is spawning another personality.  Basically, one that can do the dirty work and keep her from having to acknowledge she's doing these things.  But I think it's also showing a weakness of her current state and just her overall characteristics.  Shallan hates to face up to big challenges.  She can do it, but she will try absolutely everything she can to avoid it.  You saw in early OB that she was actually willing and able to face her fears when she took on Sja-Anat.  I think part of the reason she's lost that ability is that the components have been split out too much.  Shallan has the cleverness and creativity, Veil has the guts and attitude to stand up to people, and Radiant has the nobility and resoluteness to stand firm and do things for honorable reasons.  But none have all three.  So Shallan might be able to think up a solution, but she's too timid to carry it out.  Veil isn't timid, but is too self interested to do things for the greater good.  Radiant is proud and noble, but lacks cleverness and spunk to be good in a fight or in a tough conversation.  These personalities can solve certain aspects of challenges, but never one big one.  And that leads to her inability to face her fears and tell Adolin what's going on.

[Shardsplinter]

Have anybody else considered that Veil might not be a new personality state that Shallan created on WoR, but actually a part of her personality since she was a chile that she couldn't admit was a part of herself and so she pushed it under this "veil" when she needed to be sneaky and infiltrate GB. I mean, it is Veil that keeps telling Shallan that they have to remember, so she clearly does. 

Asymmetrical amnesia is not uncommun on DID pacients, but that raises the question: why is Veil the personality state that remembers??

[Shshsh]

6 hours ago, Shardsplinter said:

Asymmetrical amnesia is not uncommun on DID pacients, but that raises the question: why is Veil the personality state that remembers??

It seems to me that Veil has a "protector" role in Shallan's system: she comes out when Shallan herself cannot cope with what's going on in her life, as we can see here in Chapter 9

 

"Please, she whispered. Save me.

Veil reluctantly emerged. She sat up, not pulling against Adolin any longer—and he seemed to understand, shifting his position in the seat. He had an uncanny ability to tell which of her was in control.

“We’re trying to help,” Veil said to him. “And we think that this year has been good for Shallan, overall. But right now, it’s probably better if we discuss another topic.”"

 

From what I understand of DID, it's not uncommon to have an alter that functions as a sort of "manager", deciding who amongst them "comes out" at any given time, who remembers specific events from the past etc. Even if Veil is not the alter that is out most of the time, she might be the one that does the most work behind the scenes, and the one that is the most capable of dealing with their  trauma.

[Pathfinder]

17 hours ago, agrabes said:

To be fair though, what we saw was that Shallan believes the "Shallan" persona is the fakest.  She says this during a time when she's in a bad state of mind and full of self doubt.  It's not nothing, for sure.  But it's not a 100% confirmation either.  I'd put it at a 30% chance of being correct that the "Shallan" persona is completely fake or mostly fake, but that's just mostly based on my own intuition. 

The biggest point of evidence against "Shallan" actually being fakest is that Radiant is really not a full human personality.  It's hard to imagine someone who was "just" Radiant, the personality is so paper thin it really seems to only represent the concept of being honorable and noble.  If there is a "fakest" it logically has to be Radiant.  Veil could still in theory be "most real" but not Radiant.

The Shallan we know is a person with a ton of self doubt, this has been consistent in her character throughout the whole series.  She's the kind of person who thinks of herself as fake or less than, even though there's no truth to it.  But, no sense rehashing that.  I think this coming up in Ch. 9 does make it feel like we may get an answer to the question in RoW though.

 

Regarding the "Formless" personality - The book is clearly implying that her inability to face her fears and tell the truth to Adolin is spawning another personality.  Basically, one that can do the dirty work and keep her from having to acknowledge she's doing these things.  But I think it's also showing a weakness of her current state and just her overall characteristics.  Shallan hates to face up to big challenges.  She can do it, but she will try absolutely everything she can to avoid it.  You saw in early OB that she was actually willing and able to face her fears when she took on Sja-Anat.  I think part of the reason she's lost that ability is that the components have been split out too much.  Shallan has the cleverness and creativity, Veil has the guts and attitude to stand up to people, and Radiant has the nobility and resoluteness to stand firm and do things for honorable reasons.  But none have all three.  So Shallan might be able to think up a solution, but she's too timid to carry it out.  Veil isn't timid, but is too self interested to do things for the greater good.  Radiant is proud and noble, but lacks cleverness and spunk to be good in a fight or in a tough conversation.  These personalities can solve certain aspects of challenges, but never one big one.  And that leads to her inability to face her fears and tell Adolin what's going on.

I believe this scene in word of radiance is part of what supports the theory that "shallan" is a persona and shows dissociation occuring even then:

 

Words of radiance page 268 (sorry for the formatting, doing so on the phone)

The silk of Shallan’s new dress was softer than any she had owned before. It touched her skin like a comforting breeze. The left cuff clipped closed over the hand; she was old enough now to cover her safehand. She had once dreamed of wearing a woman’s dress. Her mother and she . . . Her mother . . . Shallan’s mind went still. Like a candle suddenly snuffed, she stopped thinking. She leaned back in her chair, legs tucked up underneath her, hands in her lap. The dreary stone dining chamber bustled with activity as Davar Manor prepared for guests. Shallan did not know which guests, only that her father wanted the place immaculate. Not that she could do anything to help. Two maids bustled past. “She saw,” one whispered softly to the other, a new woman. “Poor thing was in the room when it happened. Hasn’t spoken a word in five months. The master killed his own wife and her lover, but don’t let it . . .” They continued talking, but Shallan didn’t hear. She kept her hands in her lap. Her dress’s vibrant blue was the only real color in the room. She sat on the dais, beside the high table. A half-dozen maids in brown, wearing gloves on their safehands, scrubbed the floor and polished the furniture. Parshmen carted in a few more tables. A maid threw open the windows, letting in damp fresh air from the recent highstorm. Shallan caught mention of her name again. The maids apparently thought that because she didn’t speak, she didn’t hear either. At times, she wondered if she was invisible. Perhaps she wasn’t real. That would be nice. . . . The door to the hall slammed open, and Nan Helaran entered. Tall, muscular, square-chinned. Her oldest brother was a man. The rest of them . . . they were children. Even Tet Balat, who had reached the age of adulthood. Helaran scanned the chamber, perhaps looking for their father. Then he approached Shallan, a small bundle under his arm. The maids made way with alacrity. “Hello, Shallan,” Helaran said, squatting down beside her chair. “Here to supervise?” It was a place to be. Father did not like her being where she could not be watched. He worried. “I brought you something,” Helaran said, unwrapping his bundle. “I ordered it for you in Northgrip, and the merchant only just passed by.” He took out a leather satchel. Shallan took it hesitantly. Helaran’s grin was so wide, it practically glowed. It was hard to frown in a room where he was smiling. When he was around, she could almost pretend . . . Almost pretend . . . Her mind went blank. “Shallan?” he asked, nudging her. She undid the satchel. Inside was a sheaf of drawing paper, the thick kind—the expensive kind—and a set of charcoal pencils. She raised her covered safehand to her lips. “I’ve missed your drawings,” Helaran said. “I think you could be very good, Shallan. You should practice more.” She ran the fingers of her right hand across the paper, then picked up a pencil. She started to sketch. It had been too long. “I need you to come back, Shallan,” Helaran said softly. She hunched over, pencil scratching on paper. “Shallan?” No words. Just drawing. “I’m going to be away a lot in the next few years,” Helaran said. “I need you to watch the others for me. I’m worried about Balat. I gave him a new axehound pup, and he . . . wasn’t kind to it. You need to be strong, Shallan. For them.” The maids had grown quiet since Helaran’s arrival. Lethargic vines curled down outside the window nearby. Shallan’s pencil continued to move. As if she weren’t doing the drawing; as if it were coming up out of the page, the charcoal seeping out of the texture. Like blood. Helaran sighed, standing. Then he saw what she was drawing. Bodies, facedown, on the floor with— He grabbed the paper and crumpled it. Shallan started, pulling back, fingers shaking as she clutched the pencil. “Draw plants,” Helaran said, “and animals. Safe things, Shallan. Don’t dwell on what happened.”

 

 

In this scene we see Helaran tell shallan to:

1. Get better at drawing

2. Draw nice things like plants and animals

3. Look out for her brothers

4. Be strong for her brothers

5. Not dwell on what happened

 

All of that defines pretty strongly shallan and her motivations all through way of kings and words of radiance. The scene does mimic the creation of the other alters. There was a need to be filled by an external actor (veil due to mraize and the ghostbloods, radiant due to practicing with a shardblade with Adolin). Just in this case it was Helaran leaving.

Edited September 3, 2020 by Pathfinder

[agrabes]

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I believe this scene in word of radiance is part of what supports the theory that "shallan" is a persona and shows dissociation occuring even then:

In this scene we see Helaran tell shallan to:

1. Get better at drawing

2. Draw nice things like plants and animals

3. Look out for her brothers

4. Be strong for her brothers

5. Not dwell on what happened

 

All of that defines pretty strongly shallan and her motivations all through way of kings and words of radiance. The scene does mimic the creation of the other alters. There was a need to be filled by an external actor (veil due to mraize and the ghostbloods, radiant due to practicing with a shardblade with Adolin). Just in this case it was Helaran leaving.

I have to admit, that's pretty impressive for typing on a phone.  I don't think I have the patience to type that much on a touch screen.

As to the idea of this being a possible alter creation, I don't buy it.  Or at least, I don't buy that this is definitely a scene showing us the creation of an alter.  I mean, as I understand it from WoBs you have posted, Sanderson was not intentionally writing her as DID during WoR.  So this couldn't have been written as a scene of her creating an alter.  I don't think it's very similar to the scene where she creates Veil, the scenes where Veil sort of becomes a true alternate personality, the scene where she creates Radiant, or the scene where she is contemplating creating more alters.  In all those cases, either Shallan intentionally knew she was creating another personality for herself or it was shown clearly on screen that a personality was forming that was separate from the main "Shallan" personality.  I think there's enough similarity there that it could be reasonably retconned into being a scene of a creation of an alter, but I don't think it was originally written as one.

Meta reasons aside, what I think is happening in this scene is just what is shown.  Helaran is trying to help his sister so he gives her advice for things to do that will help herself and her family.  She uses his instructions not to generate an alternate personality, but as a guidepost to cling to on her way back toward a more normal life.  When in doubt, she tries to follow his instructions.  I think this scene is showing us how mentally tough Shallan really is - she goes from a completely traumatized and depressed state where she is completely non-functional and gets herself back into a still damaged, but highly functional state with her only outside help being a few words of advice from her brother.

I wouldn't be totally shocked if you are right about this theory in the end, but I'm not on board with it at least for now.

[Pathfinder]

14 minutes ago, agrabes said:

I have to admit, that's pretty impressive for typing on a phone.  I don't think I have the patience to type that much on a touch screen.

As to the idea of this being a possible alter creation, I don't buy it.  Or at least, I don't buy that this is definitely a scene showing us the creation of an alter.  I mean, as I understand it from WoBs you have posted, Sanderson was not intentionally writing her as DID during WoR.  So this couldn't have been written as a scene of her creating an alter.  I don't think it's very similar to the scene where she creates Veil, the scenes where Veil sort of becomes a true alternate personality, the scene where she creates Radiant, or the scene where she is contemplating creating more alters.  In all those cases, either Shallan intentionally knew she was creating another personality for herself or it was shown clearly on screen that a personality was forming that was separate from the main "Shallan" personality.  I think there's enough similarity there that it could be reasonably retconned into being a scene of a creation of an alter, but I don't think it was originally written as one.

Meta reasons aside, what I think is happening in this scene is just what is shown.  Helaran is trying to help his sister so he gives her advice for things to do that will help herself and her family.  She uses his instructions not to generate an alternate personality, but as a guidepost to cling to on her way back toward a more normal life.  When in doubt, she tries to follow his instructions.  I think this scene is showing us how mentally tough Shallan really is - she goes from a completely traumatized and depressed state where she is completely non-functional and gets herself back into a still damaged, but highly functional state with her only outside help being a few words of advice from her brother.

I wouldn't be totally shocked if you are right about this theory in the end, but I'm not on board with it at least for now.

Thanks. The scene from the book I was able to copy paste. The rest was me.

So first and foremost, totally get you don't feel the theory, and that is completely valid. Just expanding regarding the WoB you mentioned that I posted. I will post it again below, as well as a subsequent one and offer further commentary:

 

Vivasher Club Emo Teen (@skywardflights)

I know people who relate a lot to Shallan's arc due to how similar her personalities are to Dissociative Identity Disorder. Did you intentionally write her to be recognizable DID?

Brandon Sanderson

I did, but I shied away from it in the earlier books, because I knew I was going to be doing fantastical things, and I didn't want to be offering too much commentary on DID. That was kind of my worry. With Kaladin, I knew depression well enough from family members and things that I felt like I could be a very strong contributor to the conversation. But, I started with Shallan saying, "I don't know if I'm gonna go this route." But then, the further I went, the more I felt it would be irresponsible to not do this. And so, in the last books, I just bit the bullet, dug really far into the DSM-5 and into reading firsthand, primary accounts from people. We got a very helpful person with DID to be one of our beta readers for this last book. And I just did my best to present it accurately and to present the non-Hollywood version of it. And so, basically, Oathbringer and Rhythm of War lean into it a little more than the first two books do, though that was where I was going. And I do have a working knowledge of Dissociative Identity Disorder, and did even back then. I don't think I did a terrible job, but I think it would have been irresponsible for me to go forward without digging in a little further.

YouTube Livestream 13 (July 23, 2020)

 

Brandon Sanderson

Rhythm of War Chapters 4-5

Here's an annotation for these chapters! One of the most revised sequences of this book were these Shallan chapters--continuing through the entire novel. As I have said elsewhere, I originally designed Shallan's mental state to be a more fantastical look at something like Dissociative Identity Disorder. (Like the fantastical look at Schizophrenia I did with Stephen Leeds.)

I was fascinated by how something like mental health challenges relating to identity would intersect with magic that let you quite literally become someone else. The original version of this was for a character I wrote in Dragonsteel--which I'll eventually release to the public like I've done with TWOK Prime.

In this series, however, I've found myself leaning away from the fantastical elements more and more, and trying to lean into the real science and best mental health practices. This is because I've realized that having Shallan's ailment be completely fantastical was both irresponsible (in representation terms) and less realistic. Where I settled earlier in the series was in representing not someone with a fantastical disease, but someone with a very real disease--that is exacerbated by fantastical elements.

Because of this, I listened very hard to my beta readers on Shallan, particularly those with specific experience in this area. In the original draft of these scenes, for example, Shallan wasn't shifting between the various alters of herself nearly as often--and with some feedback, I tweaked that, and found it not only worked better in a realism way, but it also read far, far better. It's simply more interesting to see Shallan's different aspects doing different things, thinking different ways.

Some of the most satisfying moments in revisions come when you try something different, and find that it's what you wanted to do all along--but didn't quite know how to accomplish until a comment nudges you.

Bloody_Raven

Just had a random idea regarding the Dragonsteel character, could it be Bavadin? (the avatar forming seems in line with this)

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO!

simon_thekillerewok

That's interesting that you had this DID direction planned for Shallan since the beginning (pre-Way of Kings I presume). I had just assumed it was something that you developed in between WoR and Oathbringer. I know you've commented on subjects related to this before - but in light of what you're saying about leaning away from the fantastical, I'm curious to know if you think that if Shallan had become, say, an Edgedancer instead (or just never continued in her truths), that she would have developed DID and those aspects regardless? Or would she just have had her trauma manifest in other ways (such as other dissociative disorders like depersonalization/derealization/amnesia)?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say that she would have gone the same way she has, but the manifestations of her disassociation would have been different. But this is something I could perhaps waver on.

LewsTherinTelescope

I've seen quotes from you before that you didn't intend her to actually have DID, is that just about it originally being more fantastical, and now you're trying to make it actually be realistic more?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that's what is happening here. I originally shied away from it, as I didn't want to open that can of worms--but then, I realized I was opening it anyway, and the only way to be honest was to admit what I was doing and get some people who have DID themselves to advise me.

I think, in hindsight, I was trying to take too much of an easy path--and the path that didn't require me to do the work like I needed to

pweepweemuggins

Aha! So that's what you did. I immediately noted in the first chapters that Shallan's illness seemed to have gotten worse. I thought that it was you alludIng to a downward spiral of the characters in conjunction with the world of Roshar - which made sense because, if you place a mentally ill person in a world with no access to mental healthcare and then make their situation worse, what would happen? Their mental illness would get worse.

I'm surprised that it was just a change in the way you write her.

If you had the option to go back and revise all of her chapters that way, would you?

Because as it is, the real-ness and definition of her other egos reads like a downward spiral.

Brandon Sanderson

What you're noticing is not just me changing the way I'm writing her. More, I realized that her downward spiral was going to require me to actively deal with her mental illness in a responsible way, if that makes sense.

I wouldn't change much about the past books. It was more that I realized that the place she was going in this one required a more delicate touch than I could manage without some expert help.

General Reddit 2020 (Aug. 4, 2020)

 

 

 

So in summation I believe what Brandon is saying is he always intended Shallan to have DID. He leaned into it being more magical in the beginning because he wasn't sure how well he could portray it. But it became pretty clear to him this was the way to go with Shallan, so as of Oathbringer and Rhythm of War he went further into the clinical sense of it. So for myself that doesn't fall so much as a retcon, as further fleshing out the character. But I understand that you disagree, and I wish you luck!

[agrabes]

5 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Thanks. The scene from the book I was able to copy paste. The rest was me.

So first and foremost, totally get you don't feel the theory, and that is completely valid. Just expanding regarding the WoB you mentioned that I posted. I will post it again below, as well as a subsequent one and offer further commentary:

 

So in summation I believe what Brandon is saying is he always intended Shallan to have DID. He leaned into it being more magical in the beginning because he wasn't sure how well he could portray it. But it became pretty clear to him this was the way to go with Shallan, so as of Oathbringer and Rhythm of War he went further into the clinical sense of it. So for myself that doesn't fall so much as a retcon, as further fleshing out the character. But I understand that you disagree, and I wish you luck!

Interesting, thanks.  Those WOBs provide good context.  I think there's not a complete definitive answer there, which is kind of Sanderson's trademark - he wants us as fans to have room to debate and discuss what might be actually going on.

For my sake, I think his intent was always to have Shallan have an identity crisis that resulted in her having multiple personalities at least for some period of time.  I think he was setting it up that her self hatred issues combined with her ability to literally become another person were going to come to a head in OB, marking the start of her struggle with multiple personalities.  After OB, he decided the best approach was to try to model it after a real life illness and try to portray it as realistically as possible.  But like you said, we'll see.  I think we will get some answers about Shallan's past in RoW.

[Rainier]

On 9/2/2020 at 11:48 AM, agrabes said:

To be fair though, what we saw was that Shallan believes the "Shallan" persona is the fakest.

To be fair, we're talking about a book where Intent is very very important, and ideas can become sentient. If she believes something, especially given her powers to alter reality and create illusions, then she could possibly make it real just by the belief.

15 hours ago, Shardsplinter said:

but actually a part of her personality since she was a chile that she couldn't admit was a part of herself

I think this is shown directly when she confronts Re-sephir. She specifically says (internally) that she hates the part of her that's witty and diverting (mask-Shallan), and a different part of her came forth at that time. Maybe it's this Formless, but it sure wasn't Radiant or Shallan, so either Formless, Veil, or fifth personality (god no...). 

On 9/2/2020 at 11:48 AM, agrabes said:

These personalities can solve certain aspects of challenges, but never one big one.  And that leads to her inability to face her fears and tell Adolin what's going on.

This is the simplest statement of why she needs to reconcile all three at once that I've seen. She can't do the things she needs to while split into parts, because she needs aspects of all three at the same time to do so. Nicely put.

3 hours ago, agrabes said:

For my sake, I think his intent was always to have Shallan have an identity crisis that resulted in her having multiple personalities at least for some period of time.  I think he was setting it up that her self hatred issues combined with her ability to literally become another person were going to come to a head in OB, marking the start of her struggle with multiple personalities.  After OB, he decided the best approach was to try to model it after a real life illness and try to portray it as realistically as possible. 

That seems to be the most parsimonious explanation, agreed.

[Karger]

20 hours ago, Rainier said:

This is the simplest statement of why she needs to reconcile all three at once that I've seen. She can't do the things she needs to while split into parts, because she needs aspects of all three at the same time to do so. Nicely put.

She can access all three as needed though.  That is like saying that you can't do your job as a mechanic because you only have two hands.  You change as needed.

[agrabes]

56 minutes ago, Karger said:

She can access all three as needed though.  That is like saying that you can't do your job as a mechanic because you only have two hands.  You change as needed.

If you're using the mechanic metaphor, it's more like she's a one handed mechanic.  Or a mechanic who has a mental block against using both hands in conjunction.  She's got two wrenches and needs to use both to loosen a bolt.  But she's only using one wrench at a time.  No matter how fast you switch your hand from the wrench on the bolt head to the wrench on the nut, you can't loosen it.  There are times she needs character traits or skills of multiple personalities at the same time, which she can't do right now.

She can access all three as needed, but not simultaneously.  Not saying she necessarily will or must re-integrate herself.  But being split at least along the current lines of division is a weakness.

[Karger]

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

She can access all three as needed, but not simultaneously.  Not saying she necessarily will or must re-integrate herself.  But being split at least along the current lines of division is a weakness.

But she also has a much broader range of skills, abilities, and attitudes.  In that way it is a strength.

[Pathfinder]

2 hours ago, agrabes said:

If you're using the mechanic metaphor, it's more like she's a one handed mechanic.  Or a mechanic who has a mental block against using both hands in conjunction.  She's got two wrenches and needs to use both to loosen a bolt.  But she's only using one wrench at a time.  No matter how fast you switch your hand from the wrench on the bolt head to the wrench on the nut, you can't loosen it.  There are times she needs character traits or skills of multiple personalities at the same time, which she can't do right now.

She can access all three as needed, but not simultaneously.  Not saying she necessarily will or must re-integrate herself.  But being split at least along the current lines of division is a weakness.

From what I read on how alters function, if that were to occur, there would be three possible results:

 

1. the "big thing" is traumatic, and none of the alters are able to handle it, so a new alter forms to handle it

2. the "big thing" happens, and one of the alters gain the skills to handle it, maintaining the dynamic

3. Assuming Shallan is the original (which I do not think is sure one way or the other yet), and integration has occurred slowly over time, then Shallan will have enough skills to handle the "big thing" but still have the alters. 

 

So its not so much a hand reaching for different wrenches. It is multiple tool boxes that are each specialized but each box contain multiple tools. Those tool boxes can have tools added or taken away to better suit the circumstances they handle as needed, or add a whole new box of tools to handle an entirely new set of circumstances. 

Edited September 4, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Solant]

Something that just occurred to me, and forgive me if it's been brought up before, but have we discussed the possibility that what Brandon is going for with Shallan is that none of the three are the real Shallan? What if what we are seeing is the Ego, Super Ego, and Id given separate distinct voices within the same person represented by her alters? It would explain the drastic changes in her personality as the story progresses (they were all to various degrees represented by Shallan herself prior to Veil and Radiant showing up), leaving the Shallan we see at this point in the story as basically a third alter herself. I can totally see her final truth as recognizing this fact and reconciling the three as one solid, confident, competent, and complete personality.

I haven't studied psychology in 25 years, so i apologize if that sounds ignorant 

[agrabes]

On 9/4/2020 at 1:17 PM, Karger said:

But she also has a much broader range of skills, abilities, and attitudes.  In that way it is a strength.

She had access to all those things pre-split as well.  Maybe she has slightly easier access now, but it's not new access.  She can't create skill she doesn't have, because the source of all this is herself.  I don't think you can describe having a mental illness as a strength.

On 9/4/2020 at 1:58 PM, Pathfinder said:

From what I read on how alters function, if that were to occur, there would be three possible results:

 

1. the "big thing" is traumatic, and none of the alters are able to handle it, so a new alter forms to handle it

2. the "big thing" happens, and one of the alters gain the skills to handle it, maintaining the dynamic

3. Assuming Shallan is the original (which I do not think is sure one way or the other yet), and integration has occurred slowly over time, then Shallan will have enough skills to handle the "big thing" but still have the alters. 

 

So its not so much a hand reaching for different wrenches. It is multiple tool boxes that are each specialized but each box contain multiple tools. Those tool boxes can have tools added or taken away to better suit the circumstances they handle as needed, or add a whole new box of tools to handle an entirely new set of circumstances. 

It's a fair point that she could create a new alter or re-arrange existing ones to be able to handle a new challenge.  But if these personalities are split up, each one covering a portion of the "complete" personality, then by definition they can never have all the aspects of who she is at one time.  If she did have access to all aspects of herself at once, then by definition she would be fully integrated. 

Anyway, this is all just a thought about how Shallan's condition and (hopeful) future improvement in ability to manage that condition will tie to the story and character development.  I think that a problem will arise in the story that can't be solved until she achieves at least partial integration.  Creating an additional alter might be a realistic real world response, but it would be pretty unsatisfying to read and whether or not this is true from a medical/scientific perspective it would feel to most readers to be a regression.  

[Pathfinder]

11 hours ago, agrabes said:

She had access to all those things pre-split as well.  Maybe she has slightly easier access now, but it's not new access.  She can't create skill she doesn't have, because the source of all this is herself.  I don't think you can describe having a mental illness as a strength.

It's a fair point that she could create a new alter or re-arrange existing ones to be able to handle a new challenge.  But if these personalities are split up, each one covering a portion of the "complete" personality, then by definition they can never have all the aspects of who she is at one time.  If she did have access to all aspects of herself at once, then by definition she would be fully integrated. 

Anyway, this is all just a thought about how Shallan's condition and (hopeful) future improvement in ability to manage that condition will tie to the story and character development.  I think that a problem will arise in the story that can't be solved until she achieves at least partial integration.  Creating an additional alter might be a realistic real world response, but it would be pretty unsatisfying to read and whether or not this is true from a medical/scientific perspective it would feel to most readers to be a regression.  

So this is my own understanding of the mechanic, so i could be totally and completely wrong, but i think you are focusing too narrow in the sense of "task" handling. Radiant isnt just a personality that wields a shardblade. And that if a time pops up that requires wielding a shardblade, shallan has to switch to radiant. That if she needs to he sneaky and wield a shardblade then she is crem out of luck because they cant both handle it. 

 

I believe it is more concepts or states of being. Veil can wield a shardblade. She can defend herself. So can radiant. However radiant is analytical and confident, so when shallan feels overwhelmed with too much to do, she switches to radiant. Veil is free in all the ways she wishes to feel and be. When she feels overwhelmed with responsibility,  she is veil. 

If there is a moment or trauma that "shallan" feels she cannot handle, that is when the alters take over or a new alter is created. That is why i said tool box versus tool. Its not having to switch between a screw driver and a wrench, its switching between the toolbox to fix automobiles versus a toolbox to fix an airplane. There are going to be common tools within both. They are both particularly effective in particular circumstances but they can still work within the system. 

Sorry i know that is a bit meandering but again typing on my phone so hopefully makes sense 

 

Ah one more thing because of a quick glance reread of your post. Its not that the "three" are three separate lego blocks that should be put together as one. Its not like if one knows how to hop on one foot, that means the others automatically cannot. Otherwise how would any of them walk, talk, breathe, or write if skills were entirely isolated to each alter? Its that certain ones are just more effective than others in a given concept to handle tasks that the original feels she cannot. And with all the info we have, i dont think we can necessarily assume shallan is the original. 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Karger]

12 hours ago, agrabes said:

It's a fair point that she could create a new alter or re-arrange existing ones to be able to handle a new challenge.  But if these personalities are split up, each one covering a portion of the "complete" personality, then by definition they can never have all the aspects of who she is at one time.  If she did have access to all aspects of herself at once, then by definition she would be fully integrated. 

An important stage in real DID seems to be co-con or co-consciousness where two or more personalities both share the diver's seat.  This is NOT the same as integration. Both personalities are in fact separate they are simply cooperating at a very high level(like two very well trained dancers). 

12 hours ago, agrabes said:

Creating an additional alter might be a realistic real world response

Additional alters can't be created.  People will often discover them but they were there the entire time.  You can't make them on demand.

[agrabes]

On 9/6/2020 at 8:26 PM, Pathfinder said:

Ah one more thing because of a quick glance reread of your post. Its not that the "three" are three separate lego blocks that should be put together as one. Its not like if one knows how to hop on one foot, that means the others automatically cannot. Otherwise how would any of them walk, talk, breathe, or write if skills were entirely isolated to each alter? Its that certain ones are just more effective than others in a given concept to handle tasks that the original feels she cannot. And with all the info we have, i dont think we can necessarily assume shallan is the original. 

I think of them as a Venn diagram - they share some things all together like basic functions and some general values like a desire to oppose Odium, some things are shared with one and not the other like how Radiant and Veil can wield a shardblade, but not Shallan, and other things are unique to only one such as Shallan's sense of humor, Radiant's sense of honor and propriety, or Veil's sneakiness.

I'm not so concerned with what's medically or scientifically proper.  I'm concerned with what makes sense in terms of the story and what would feel right (or wrong) based on what we know so far.  If it turned out the Shallan we knew through 3 books was completely fake and is gone never to return again, that feels bad.  Not bad as in "I feel sorry for this character because she had such bad luck" but bad as in "I don't want to read from the POV of some other person inhabiting Shallan's body."  It's a good story arc if Shallan gets out of control for a while but brings it back by the end.  I could live with her still having split personalities if she's able to return to having the Shallan we know clearly in charge and self-assured.  It's even good if she just dies or turns evil.  It's lame if the final reveal is "Ha ha ha, Shallan was never really Shallan you dummies!"

But that said, I think I'm going to leave it at that for this discussion.  I do think/hope we'll get some more resolution to Shallan in RoW.

[Pathfinder]

 

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

I'm not so concerned with what's medically or scientifically proper.  I'm concerned with what makes sense in terms of the story and what would feel right (or wrong) based on what we know so far.  If it turned out the Shallan we knew through 3 books was completely fake and is gone never to return again, that feels bad.  Not bad as in "I feel sorry for this character because she had such bad luck" but bad as in "I don't want to read from the POV of some other person inhabiting Shallan's body."  It's a good story arc if Shallan gets out of control for a while but brings it back by the end.  I could live with her still having split personalities if she's able to return to having the Shallan we know clearly in charge and self-assured.  It's even good if she just dies or turns evil.  It's lame if the final reveal is "Ha ha ha, Shallan was never really Shallan you dummies!"

I get that. For myself I like going for the medically or scientifically proper because it helps me understand the character more. Just like with the magic systems. Having them have rules and grounded in reality, helps me visualize it. That is why I enjoy looking up and reading up on DID, to better understand in my mind what is happening with Shallan. You are totally entitled to not enjoy that potential narrative. For myself I don't see it as problematic, and would be enjoyable to me. 

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

But that said, I think I'm going to leave it at that for this discussion.  I do think/hope we'll get some more resolution to Shallan in RoW.

No problem. I wish you luck with your theories!