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57 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

The brain is a more substantial to who you are than hair. They both exist. They are both parts of your body. But one you can remove and still be almost the same person as you were and another you can't.

But I don't think any of Shallan's manifestations are removable or inconsequential.

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23 hours ago, LordTheodore said:

no. But I also don't find it strange. I also am unsure that having three personalities in one body is a problem.

I'm confused why people seem to think it's hunky-dory to have multiple personalities for a radiant whose order is based on speaking truths as an approach to self-awareness. There's only one person there, there's only ever been one person there, and the longer Shallan pretends otherwise, the worse it will get for her.

Shallan will kill Pattern if she continues to refuse to integrate her three personalities. Thus far, she has not done anything to accomplish this integration. In fact, she's consolidated the lies she's telling herself, relying on the lies she's telling herself, and has come to depend on the lies she's telling herself.

Pattern said she would kill him, and he's right. She's killing him by refusing to continue on her journey of self-awareness.

And for those people who think somehow Veil isn't the real Shallan, notice who is playing which role here.

Quote

Shallan tried to focus on the accounts. She could do these numbers; she’d first trained on accounting when doing her father’s ledgers. That had begun before she

Before she

It might be time, Veil whispered. To remember, once and for all. Everything.

No, it was not.

But…

Shallan retreated immediately. No, we can’t think of that. Take control.

Veil sat back in the seat as her wine arrived. Fine.

Veil is the one who wants to remember once and for all. Veil is the one who wants to reconcile the three different parts of her psyche. Shallan is the one who retreated immediately and took control, and Veil was the one who surrendered control, and sat back, resigned.

Shallan is still in charge, but Veil is the one doing what needs to be done. Shallan is the mask, the shield against the world and against the trauma she suffered as a child. Whenever it threatens to reemerge, Shallan is the one lying, pushing it down, and killing her bonded spren. Veil is the representative of the whole, unbroken girl she used to be. Shallan is the persona used to protect Veil as a child, and Radiant is the persona protecting Veil from the responsibilities that come with her powers.

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1 hour ago, Rainier said:

I'm confused why people seem to think it's hunky-dory to have multiple personalities for a radiant whose order is based on speaking truths as an approach to self-awareness. There's only one person there, there's only ever been one person there, and the longer Shallan pretends otherwise, the worse it will get for her.

I don't see how having multiple personalities prevents someone from being self-aware. If Shallan's way of understanding herself is viewing herself in the form of many personalities to understand the desires motivations and feelings of each distinct personality then the culmination of that would be self-awareness.

4 hours ago, Ailvara said:

No. If you want a metaphor: the way you behave when you're alone or with close friends is more true than the way you behave when you go networking to a business party full of strangers. Or, the way you fall to the ground and cry after you've experienced a trauma is more true that putting on a smile on your face and tell everyone that you're fine while you're dying inside.

That's what 'Shallan' is. A coping mechanism, a person who never experienced those terrible things that happened to her. Plus a well-crafted "perfect daughter", then proper vorin lady. These traits are part of Shallan but not a deep core of her personality. So Veil isn't the whole truth either because she lacks that. But still more true than 'Shallan'. The fact that she remembers, while Shallan doesn't, reinforces that.

Interesting. Personally the way I am around strangers is my true self whereas around friends and family and people I know I am often an adjusted version of myself which changes depending on who I am around. In fact it would take a very good reason for me to not be myself around strangers since I would consciously have to put up a false face. I would only do this if I had a strong desire to hide my identity or I felt it necessary to manipulate someone dishonestly due to the limitations of standard manipulation. The reason I adjust my personality around people I know is so that I synergise with their personality. for example my sister is very optimistic and hopeful. So when i am around her I tend to become more pessimistic and cautious in order to give her perspectives on decisions she may not have considered in order to help her make better decisions. My Father is quite assertive so when I am around him I allow him to make decisions and I will offer suggestions and ideas. This is contrasted to when I am around my mother who is quite indecisive and when I am around her I often am more assertive and decisive and often make decisions.

 

Note: The spellchecker on this forum is highlighting that synergise is spelt incorrectly when this is not the case. Does anyone know how to report a bug?

Edited by LordTheodore
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2 hours ago, Rainier said:

I'm confused why people seem to think it's hunky-dory to have multiple personalities for a radiant whose order is based on speaking truths as an approach to self-awareness. There's only one person there, there's only ever been one person there, and the longer Shallan pretends otherwise, the worse it will get for her.

I am confused on why you think it is so dangerous.  I am reminded of that Iri guy who explained their path.  How they were all of the one.  Sure all of them are individuals but they are also part of a greater whole.  I actually think it might be smarter for her to keep going.  Break see how many thoughts and feelings she is capable of.  Recognize the multitude of contradictory, bickering, and problematic individuals she is and understand that they are all of her.

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I don't understand why people are claiming that any of the personalities are more real or fake than the others. I think each personality has both truth and lies when it comes to who Shallan really is. the Shallan personality is real. Veil is real. Radiant is real. They are aspects of the true person beneath it all. However, this is all my opinion, and I'm sure everything will be more clear when RoW comes out.

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3 hours ago, Karger said:

I am confused on why you think it is so dangerous. 

I told you why: it's going to kill Pattern. Just like Kaladin making oaths he can't keep nearly killed Sylphrena, believing lies and refusing to acknowledge truths is going to threaten Pattern's life. Kaladin's struggles keeping his oaths is going to be paralleled with Shallan's struggles admitting her Truths.

 

3 hours ago, LordTheodore said:

I don't see how having multiple personalities prevents someone from being self-aware.

Probably when one of those personalities is based on denying exactly that self-awareness. From the RoW chapters:

Quote

Before she

It might be time, Veil whispered. To remember, once and for all. Everything.

No, it was not.

But…

Shallan retreated immediately. No, we can’t think of that. Take control.

Veil sat back in the seat as her wine arrived. Fine.

Shallan is the persona suppressing the truths she needs to acknowledge. Veil is the persona trying to bring up those memories, and move forward. Maybe in general it's not dangerous for a character to have split personalities, but it sure as L is for a Lightweaver whose bond depends on her own self-awareness.

3 hours ago, LordTheodore said:

If Shallan's way of understanding herself is viewing herself in the form of many personalities to understand the desires motivations and feelings of each distinct personality then the culmination of that would be self-awareness.

I'm making the assumption that by acknowledging these truths, the three different personalities will combine into a coherent whole, as that makes narrative sense. I also don't think Pattern is willing to accept three personalities as a truth, since there's only one body, one person. He'd call the other personalities clever lies, but it's those lies that are going to kill him. I suppose it is possible that Pattern wouldn't end up deadeyed from having to deal with all three, but I don't think it's likely. You'd have to do some convincing to bring me around to three-personality-Shallan as a suitable bond for a Cryptic, more than some hippy-dippy paean for a broken woman accepting that she's broken.

3 hours ago, Karger said:

Recognize the multitude of contradictory, bickering, and problematic individuals she is and understand that they are all of her.

There is only one her for there to be. The Lie is that there are three, the Truth is that it's all Shallan, all the way down, and always has been. The alternate personalities are the lies that will kill Pattern.

I feel like everyone forgets about him, when it comes to these discussions, as if the purpose of Shallan as a character could be completely divorced from the fact that she's a Radiant, or that we would ever have spent this much time inside her head if she wasn't one of the main (read: Radiant) characters in the series.

48 minutes ago, The Ryshadium said:

the Shallan personality is real. Veil is real. Radiant is real. They are aspects of the true person beneath it all.

I'm disagreeing with you here. Shallan is the role she had to play, first for her father, then for Jasnah as her ward, then for Adolin (and the rest of the warcamps) as his betrothed. Radiant is the role she had to play when she was revealed as a Knight Radiant, and it's where she offloads all of her responsibility and stoicism. Veil, however, isn't like the others. Veil is the remnant of the whole person who used to be, stripped of those qualities needed for the other two masks.

That's my opinion, and I think it's well supported in the text.

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2 minutes ago, Rainier said:
Quote

Before she

It might be time, Veil whispered. To remember, once and for all. Everything.

No, it was not.

But…

Shallan retreated immediately. No, we can’t think of that. Take control.

Veil sat back in the seat as her wine arrived. Fine.

Shallan is the persona suppressing the truths she needs to acknowledge. Veil is the persona trying to bring up those memories, and move forward.

I have a very different read on that quote than you do. To me it sounds like Veil is encouraging Shallan to face her truths (as Shallan is the personality able to do this), however, Veil is exactly that. A veil over the truth, a way to move forward in life without facing the hard truths. Shallan is the one who is capable of remembering the truths, but isn't strong/secure enough right now to do so.

 

4 minutes ago, Rainier said:

I'm making the assumption that by acknowledging these truths, the three different personalities will combine into a coherent whole, as that makes narrative sense.

I see your point here for the narrative. But we know that Shallan's DID isn't magical, it's neurological. I think it would be very cheap if Brandon allowed Shallan to progress in this way. I think the better narrative is that as Shallan is able to work internally to improve her mental health and create a coherent whole enables her to acknowledge the truths and not turn to her personalities as a form of escapism.

 

6 minutes ago, Rainier said:

I'm disagreeing with you here. Shallan is the role she had to play, first for her father, then for Jasnah as her ward, then for Adolin (and the rest of the warcamps) as his betrothed. Radiant is the role she had to play when she was revealed as a Knight Radiant, and it's where she offloads all of her responsibility and stoicism. Veil, however, isn't like the others. Veil is the remnant of the whole person who used to be, stripped of those qualities needed for the other two masks.

That's my opinion, and I think it's well supported in the text.

Can you share some of what supports this? I think from my interpretations above that Veil is very not "the rest" but rather another role she has to play "moving forward and focused".

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3 minutes ago, Rainier said:

I'm disagreeing with you here. Shallan is the role she had to play, first for her father, then for Jasnah as her ward, then for Adolin (and the rest of the warcamps) as his betrothed. Radiant is the role she had to play when she was revealed as a Knight Radiant, and it's where she offloads all of her responsibility and stoicism. Veil, however, isn't like the others. Veil is the remnant of the whole person who used to be, stripped of those qualities needed for the other two masks.

That's my opinion, and I think it's well supported in the text.

I respect your opinion and can definitely see that as a possibility. However, to me it seems more likely that  each personality is a remnant of the person who used to be. Each with a fraction of truth associated with them. 

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34 minutes ago, Rainier said:

I told you why: it's going to kill Pattern. Just like Kaladin making oaths he can't keep nearly killed Sylphrena, believing lies and refusing to acknowledge truths is going to threaten Pattern's life. Kaladin's struggles keeping his oaths is going to be paralleled with Shallan's struggles admitting her Truths.

Only if you believe that Shallan is only one person.

34 minutes ago, Rainier said:

Shallan is the persona suppressing the truths she needs to acknowledge. Veil is the persona trying to bring up those memories, and move forward. Maybe in general it's not dangerous for a character to have split personalities, but it sure as L is for a Lightweaver whose bond depends on her own self-awareness.

Or the subset of her self that she calls Shallan is also the part of herself that is not yet ready.  Oaths have to come in their own time.

34 minutes ago, Rainier said:

There is only one her for there to be. The Lie is that there are three, the Truth is that it's all Shallan, all the way down, and always has been. The alternate personalities are the lies that will kill Pattern.

That is a rather limited view.  One can be divided an infinite number of times.  I think a good last truth for her could be "I am infinite."

34 minutes ago, Rainier said:

I feel like everyone forgets about him, when it comes to these discussions, as if the purpose of Shallan as a character could be completely divorced from the fact that she's a Radiant, or that we would ever have spent this much time inside her head if she wasn't one of the main (read: Radiant) characters in the series.

I feel like you are subjecting Shallan to your own interpretation of the path she has to follow.  There is never only one option.  As to them all being lies that will clearly kill Pattern.  They have not so far.  Why should they now?

Edited by Karger
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32 minutes ago, GudThymes said:

Can you share some of what supports this?

Mostly it's chapter 59, 60, and 61 of Words of Radiance.

Fifty-nine is Fleet, one of Wit's story chapters, and doesn't really have much to do with Shallan except to align Kaladin's story with hers. The readers get a thinly veiled metaphor of Kaladin, told in a mystical style by the most powerful and knowledgeable man on the planet. Gandalf, if nobody knew to look for him. Then, they get two chapters in a row of Shallan.

Sixty is Veil Walks, and has the key quotes.

Quote

“Pattern, nothing is less funny than explaining humor,” Shallan said. “We have more important things to discuss.”

“Mmm . . . Such as why you have forgotten how to make your images produce sound? You did it once, long ago.”

. . .

Shallan blinked, then held up the modern map.

Pattern challenges her, she blacks out. Shallan blacks out.

Quote

“Shallan,” Pattern said, moving closer to her. “I know that you have forgotten much of what once was. Those lies attracted me. But you cannot continue like this; you must admit the truth about me. About what I can do, and what we have done. Mmm . . . More, you must know yourself. And remember.”

She sat cross-legged on the too-nice bed. Memories tried to claw their way out of the boxes inside her head. Those memories all pointed one way, toward carpet bloodied. And carpet . . . not.

“You wish to help,” Pattern said. “You wish to prepare for the Everstorm, the spren of the unnatural one. You must become something. I did not come to you merely to teach you tricks of light.”

“You came to learn,” Shallan said, staring at her map. “That’s what you said.”

“I came to learn. We became to do something greater.”

“Would you have me unable to laugh?” she demanded, suddenly holding back tears. “Would you have me crippled? That is what those memories would do to me. I can be what I am because I cut them off.

An image formed in front of her, born of Stormlight, created by instinct. She hadn’t needed to draw this image first, for she knew it too well.

The image was of herself. Shallan, as she should be. Curled in a huddle on the bed, unable to weep for she had long since run out of tears. This girl . . . not a woman, a girl . . . flinched whenever spoken to. She expected everyone to shout at her. She could not laugh, for laughter had been squeezed from her by a childhood of darkness and pain.

That was the real Shallan. She knew it as surely as she knew her own name. The person she had become instead was a lie, one she had fabricated in the name of survival. To remember herself as a child, discovering Light in the gardens, Patterns in the stonework, and dreams that became real . . .

. . .

“Mmmm . . . Such a deep lie,” Pattern whispered. “A deep lie indeed. But still, you must obtain your abilities. Learn again, if you have to.”

“Very well,” Shallan said. “But if we did this before, can’t you just tell me how it is done?”

“My memory is weak,” Pattern said. “I was dumb so long, nearly dead. Mmm. I could not speak.”

“Yeah,” Shallan said, remembering him spinning on the ground and running into the wall. “You were kind of cute, though.” She banished the image of the frightened, huddled, whimpering girl, then got out her drawing implements. She tapped a pencil against her lips, then did something simple, a drawing of Veil, the darkeyed con woman.

Veil was not Shallan. Her features were different enough that the two of them would be distinct individuals to anyone who happened to see them both. Still, Veil did bear echoes of Shallan. She was a darkeyed, tan-skinned, Alethi version of Shallan—a Shallan that was a few years older and had a pointier nose and chin.

That was deep, so let's recap. The lies that she first told are what attracted Pattern in the first place, her deep lies. However, Shallan became what she is because of those very lies, because she cut off her memories. And what is she? Well, she should be a frightened girl who fliches when spoken to, but what she became instead was the one she fabricated in the name of survival. This is Shallan: the balance between the sniveling girl and the lie created to protect herself from that girl.

What does she do next? She creates Veil, and what does she say about Veil? Veil was not-Shallan. V = ~S. Veil is everything left over when Shallan was created, Shallan the lie created in the name of survival.

Sixty-one is a flashback chapter from a mere 15 months (year and a half, Rosharan calendar, etc.) earlier. The title is Obedience, and I need only quote the first paragraph.

Quote

Shallan became the perfect daughter.

That's it, in black and white. Shallan is a lie, and Veil is not Shallan. Shallan is the perfect daughter now, and that's who we see referred to as Shallan right through the wedding we didn't see. Shallan is a lie, always has been.

1 hour ago, GudThymes said:

I think from my interpretations above that Veil is very not "the rest" but rather another role she has to play "moving forward and focused".

Moving forward and focused is the best description I could ever come up with for Radiant. I could do her next, but she's not as interesting as the other two.

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9 minutes ago, Rainier said:

That's it, in black and white. Shallan is a lie, and Veil is not Shallan. Shallan is the perfect daughter now, and that's who we see referred to as Shallan right through the wedding we didn't see. Shallan is a lie, always has been.

Can't we become other people?  Plenty of people go through life changing experiences that force them to alter who they are.  That does not make the person they were before fake or the person they become afterward any less real.  A great example of this is with doctors.  To become a doctor you have to change who you are and how you look at life and death.  Becky Chamber's Novel a Record of a Spaceborn Few.  Includes a story about a woman who works in a morgue.  Because of her familiarity with death and her job she has to present a certain image that she learned by working on dead people.  Does this mean that that image is not her?  Of course not.  She really is the person she presents herself as.  It is just not all of herself.

Edited by Karger
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12 minutes ago, Rainier said:

What does she do next? She creates Veil, and what does she say about Veil? Veil was not-Shallan. V = ~S. Veil is everything left over when Shallan was created, Shallan the lie created in the name of survival.

That's a weird use of logic imo. I'll use your logic here: I'm not you. Me = ~you. But I can't conclude that I'm everything left over from you. I don't know the quote off the top of my head, but the scene where Hoid interacts with Shallan in OB in Kholinar was Hoid saying that maskShallan can become Shallan if she addresses her truths.

I think maskShallan (to use that term) is just Shallan missing the piece that turns her into the other Shallan. What Pattern is trying to do is get maskShallan to become Shallan. But she isn't ready yet, so she splits herself even more and becomes Veil, someone who doesn't need to face her memories to move forward

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Oh wow. These are all super interesting views.

Based on this, I agree that all three personalities right now - Veil, "Shallan", Radiant - are in a sense fake. The "Shallan" personality is the one she made to "be the perfect daughter", a long long time ago. It was a defense mechanism, a coping strategy - she just couldn't keep on moving forward in life, couldn't deal with the trauma, so pretended to be someone other than who she was. As that personality became insufficient, she expanded to Veil and Radiant to help her do other things. Radiant to be a confident leader. Veil to be con-woman, smooth and breaking rules.

None are the full, underlying Shallan personality. All are reflections of it, because of course they're all actually one person, but all are that one person playing a part. Throughout the first books, we've been led to believe that "Shallan" was the real personality, and then we got Veil and Radiant as "fake" personalities - but the reveal is going to be that the "Shallan" we've seen is just as fake as those two. "Shallan" is what happens when a young girl tries to pretend to be the kind of person who can keep a household together all on her own.

I also think it's worth noting - we've NEVER seen Shallan in a situation where she feels safe enough to let down her guard and have no reason to pretend. She started WoK on a mission to steal a soulcaster (gotta put on her best game face for that!) and then got thrust into travel to the Shattered Plains with unscrupulous types, then navigating the Shattered Plains when she's a nobody and is relying on the goodwill of others, then there's a storming Desolation going on and every moment is precious and she has to stay strong. Most of her flashbacks are post-trauma. So I think it makes sense that the personality we've seen as "Shallan" is also a "game face" she's put on to help her keep coping.

My guess is that when we get that last Truth out of Shallan - whatever went on even further back to set the Davar household on this path, or her part in it - we'll get a fourth personality. It'll be named something like "young girl" or maybe will be some nickname that her mother or father used to call her by, back then when they could still have fond nicknames for each other. It'll be a personality that she's always had but rarely or never showed on screen, but it'll be the oldest one. One that can cry on someone's shoulder for comfort, or make dumb jokes that aren't trying to be clever at all, who can make some storming friends for once that aren't just people whose help she needs or who need her help. There's going to be some sort of scene where that new personality brings them all together - some sort of admission that OK, all three of these personalities are a front, and the "real Shallan" is all of them at once and more.

I don't think that afterwards, Shallan will go back to having a mono-personality. Mental illnesses don't usually work that way, with the patient having a sudden realization and then being healed, and Brandon seems to want to treat DID more realistically now, so I don't think we'll get a magic healing moment. But we might get a person who's more in tune with herself.

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On 7/31/2020 at 11:59 PM, ftl said:

I don't think that afterwards, Shallan will go back to having a mono-personality. Mental illnesses don't usually work that way, with the patient having a sudden realization and then being healed, and Brandon seems to want to treat DID more realistically now, so I don't think we'll get a magic healing moment. But we might get a person who's more in tune with herself.

I think this is an important point, and I'm quoting it because YouTube was sneaky and recommended a fascinating video on an interview of three people with DID. It was eye opening for someone like myself, who had only ever known facts about the disorder through pop culture, and Shallan. I recommend it for anyone else interested in learning more. 

Link: https://youtu.be/ek7JK6pattE

 

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54 minutes ago, Requiem17 said:

I think this is an important point, and I'm quoting it because YouTube was sneaky and recommended a fascinating video on an interview of three people with DID. It was eye opening for someone like myself, who had only ever known facts about the disorder through pop culture, and Shallan. I recommend it for anyone else interested in learning more. 

This is really excellent. 

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On 31/07/2020 at 5:58 PM, agrabes said:

Thanks good explanation - I think we're closer to being on the same page than not.  I agree with your general idea of possible "Shallan 1/2/3".  I don't think that there's a "Shallan 1" that's nothing like the "Shallan 2" we meet in WoK, but that "Shallan 2" is basically "Shallan 1" with a few pieces chipped off and buried deep in her mind.  And that more pieces get chipped off to create "Shallan 3".

I guess in terms of her timid/aggressive nature and the WoB quote, how I read that is that maybe she did hide away the part of her that was capable of violence and overt action.  Maybe in more of a "suppressed memory" way originally, and then it became DID later.  I think what the WoB means is that the part of her that is timid, like deferring to Jasnah, or feeling she needs to stay quiet when her "betters" are talking, is not the real true her.  That's learned behavior from her childhood and trying to manage her father's abuse.  But the part of her that likes to talk out of turn, cares a little less about propriety, loves art and nature, that we see in WoR and early OB is the passionate part that is most like the real her.

I think we are. :)

On 31/07/2020 at 6:12 PM, Karger said:

But I don't think any of Shallan's manifestations are removable or inconsequential.

I was going to leave it at that as I generally agreed, but then this came out:

Quote

So she’d have to keep working on this—and they’d therefore also have to find more ways to sneak Adolin out to spend time with Shallan. The girl wilted if not given proper loving attention.

Unlike most people I don't think it's a romantic sign but rather proof that 'Shallan 3' is the mask created on top of whatever was left of 'Shallan 1' first for Shallan's father/family, then maintained for Adolin. In other words, so much else has leaked out to Veil and Radiant that at this point she can barely exist without him as point of reference. It's also not the first time we hear about it ('Without you, I fade' in OB).

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9 hours ago, Ailvara said:

Unlike most people I don't think it's a romantic sign but rather proof that 'Shallan 3' is the mask created on top of whatever was left of 'Shallan 1' first for Shallan's father/family, then maintained for Adolin. In other words, so much else has leaked out to Veil and Radiant that at this point she can barely exist without him as point of reference. It's also not the first time we hear about it ('Without you, I fade' in OB).

I find that a bit odd.  Veil and Radiant are both designed to be independent.  Their role is to protect Shallan physically and emotionally.  Shallan on the other hand requires intimacy.

Edited by Karger
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2 hours ago, Karger said:

I find that a bit odd.  Veil and Radiant are both designed to be independent.  Their role is to protect Shallan physically and emotionally.  Shallan on the other hand requires intimacy.

Littles or child alters are not independent and require intimacy, but that does not negate their existence. 

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On 7/30/2020 at 8:35 PM, PrinceGenocide said:

One,  how  does it affect thier spiritweb ?

Like are they sharing one too much like how they share shallans body or is it like her spiderweb has expanded to thrive the size.

Two , what would happen if odium were to use a duralumin spike on her ??? 

Would radiant and Veil seperate from and manifest discreetly in other bodies in whom the spikes are placed ?

These are actually very good questions. Of course, DID is a non-magical illness, but there would be very interesting Realmatic consequences to it.

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16 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Littles or child alters are not independent and require intimacy, but that does not negate their existence. 

I agree.  Thank you for putting it more succinctly.  I suppose this would make Veil and Radiant primary protectors.

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11 hours ago, Ailvara said:

Unlike most people I don't think it's a romantic sign but rather proof that 'Shallan 3' is the mask created on top of whatever was left of 'Shallan 1' first for Shallan's father/family, then maintained for Adolin. In other words, so much else has leaked out to Veil and Radiant that at this point she can barely exist without him as point of reference. It's also not the first time we hear about it ('Without you, I fade' in OB).

i'm not totally sure how I feel about that line.  I agree it's not a romantic sign.  I definitely took it as.. there's something wrong here.  It almost felt like Veil/Radiant insulting "Shallan".  I said in the other thread I felt a bit better about Shallan's state after reading chapters 4 and 5, but this was one of the lines that to me says there are still serious problems.

Obviously not being an expert in real life DID, my gut feeling is that the main "Shallan" persona needs to get stronger somehow.  That she needs to get the idea that she "is" Shallan, but sometimes she lets herself be Veil or Radiant.  

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2 hours ago, agrabes said:

i'm not totally sure how I feel about that line.  I agree it's not a romantic sign.  I definitely took it as.. there's something wrong here.  It almost felt like Veil/Radiant insulting "Shallan".  I said in the other thread I felt a bit better about Shallan's state after reading chapters 4 and 5, but this was one of the lines that to me says there are still serious problems.

Obviously not being an expert in real life DID, my gut feeling is that the main "Shallan" persona needs to get stronger somehow.  That she needs to get the idea that she "is" Shallan, but sometimes she lets herself be Veil or Radiant.  

I'm not an expert by any means either, but by quick research:

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DID was called multiple personality disorder up until 1994, when the name was changed to reflect a better understanding of the condition—namely, that it is characterized by a fragmentation or splintering of identity, rather than by a proliferation or growth of separate personalities.

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It is considered important for the therapist to become familiar with at least the more prominent personality states as the "host" personality may not be the "true" identity of the patient. (...) The final phase focuses on reconnecting the identities of disparate alters into a single functioning identity with all its memories and experiences intact.

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The international treatment guidelines for Dissociative Identity Disorder in Adults state that therapists should not try to ignore or "get rid" of any alters: integration involves merging/fusing together which is the opposite.

So much for sticking to one persona and making sure the others don't disturb. By various sources I've read, the best approach is to deal with the root cause - mainly, make sure the person regains their full memories and consciousness (including trauma that caused the split) and put that to therapy. Then reintegration can naturally follow. Knowing Shallan's order, it's exactly what she needs to do anyway.

7 hours ago, Karger said:

I find that a bit odd.  Veil and Radiant are both designed to be independent.  Their role is to protect Shallan physically and emotionally.  Shallan on the other hand requires intimacy.

I think you've misunderstood my point. Both the 'wilting' and 'fading' wording suggest that she's not just distressed when not getting proper care, she literally starts to disappear.

You may dismiss it as just a misunderstood hint (well, two consistent hints) but I'm pretty sure we'll yet get back to that with more proof later.

Edited by Ailvara
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13 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

I think you've misunderstood my point. Both the 'wilting' and 'fading' wording suggest that she's not just distressed when not getting proper care, she literally starts to disappear.

Oh I thought that was a figure of speech.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm curious what you guys think about the wine scene from the new chapter:

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Ialai offered it to Veil first, who accepted the cup, and took a drink. (...)

“It’s sweet, fermented from a fruit, not a grain. It reminds me of visits to Gavilar’s wineries. I would guess it an Alethi vintage, rescued before the kingdom fell, made from simberries. The flesh of the fruit is clear, and they took great care to remove the rinds. Revealing what was truly inside.”

(...) Ialai smiled, then handed Shallan a small cup of the orange. She took it—and found it bland and flavorless.

“Well?” Ialai asked, sipping her own cup.

“It is weak,” Shallan said. “Powerless. Yet I taste a hint of something wrong. A touch of sourness. An… annoyance that should be exterminated from the vintage.”

“And yet,” Ialai said, “it looks so good. A proper orange, to be enjoyed by children—and those who act like them. Perfect for people who want to maintain appearances before others. Then the sourness. That’s what this vintage truly is, isn’t it? Awful, no matter how it may appear.”

“To what end?” Shallan asked. “What good does it do to package an inferior wine with such a fine label?”

“It might fool some, for a time,” Ialai said. “Allow the winemaker to gain quick and easy ground over his competition. But he’ll eventually be revealed as a fraud, and his creation will be discarded in favor of a truly strong or noble vintage.” (...)

“Ah, here,” Ialai said. “Perfect.” She held up a deep blue. This time she didn’t offer it to Shallan first, but took a sip. “A wonderful vintage, but the last of its kind. Every other bottle destroyed in a fire. After today, even this bit will be gone.”

 

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