Veil and radiant

[Friendshipspren]

Ok so after reading chapter 2 and 3. I would say shallan is doing very well. Unlike most ppl I don't find it strange for one person to have three ppl within them but it does being some questions to mind.

 

One,  how  does it affect thier spiritweb ?

Like are they sharing one too much like how they share shallans body or is it like her spiderweb has expanded to thrive the size.

Two , what would happen if odium were to use a duralumin spike on her ??? 

Would radiant and Veil seperate from and manifest discreetly in other bodies in whom the spikes are placed ?

Three, how autonomous are they ? Now veil for example liked kal a lot. I imagine she can't be too happy with adolin of she truly is completely independent and equal of shallan. 

So would it be lead like an arrangement where 5 days shallan gets to be with adolin , the 5 days she gets to date kal or someone else ??? 

That would be amazing but I'm guessing that ain't happening. 

Four , is Shallan foreshadowing for Autonomy ?

And  We know bavadin has a similar but far more intense cognitive divergence thingy going on. 

I think we will learn a lot about Autonomy with how shallan deals with VnR . 

And total aluminium foil but could this foreshadowing itself  foreshadow  autonomy or one of her avatars meddling in Roshar , probably in the Stormlight era 2 ??? 

[Kuram]

They aren't actually 3 people.  It's just a dissociative personality disorder. 

[Karger]

Veil and Radiant are both part of Shallan.  Veil is her desire to know things she should not and do thinks she thinks are wrong.  Radiant is the parts of herself that are more like the person she thinks everyone wants her to be.  Neither of them actually have any knowledge or characteristics Shallan lacks they are parts of her out of context.

[GriffinMaze]

2 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Unlike most ppl I don't find it strange for one person to have three ppl within them

uh ya should

[LordTheodore]

Just now, GriffinMaze said:

uh ya should

why?

[GriffinMaze]

7 minutes ago, LordTheodore said:

why?

Do I really have to explain why dissociative identity disorder is weird/a problem?

Edited July 30, 2020 by GriffinMaze

[LordTheodore]

15 minutes ago, GriffinMaze said:

Do I really have to explain why dissociative identity disorder is a weird/a problem?

no. But I also don't find it strange. I also am unsure that having three personalities in one body is a problem.

Edited July 30, 2020 by LordTheodore
people is inaccurate. personalities is more precise

[GriffinMaze]

1 minute ago, LordTheodore said:

no. But I also don't find it strange. I also am unsure that having three people in one body is a problem.

We have plenty of in text evidence that it creates a problem for Shallan. Its literally one of the main tenets of her character

[LordTheodore]

7 minutes ago, GriffinMaze said:

We have plenty of in text evidence that it creates a problem for Shallan. Its literally one of the main tenets of her character

That doesn't preclude a state of being in which having three personalities in one body is not a problem

Edited July 30, 2020 by LordTheodore
people is inaccurate. personalities is more precise

[Karger]

14 minutes ago, LordTheodore said:

That doesn't preclude a state of being in which having three personalities in one body is not a problem

It can clearly be either or both.  Calling it a problem is at best an oversimplification.  Calling it a good thing is probably false.

[Honorless]

Hmm, I wonder if there might be a way to... extract Veil from Shallan

[Halyo_Alex]

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

Hmm, I wonder if there might be a way to... extract Veil from Shallan

Very freaking precise Soulcasting and Illumination together? Possibly with Bondsmith-boost shenanigans.

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

Hmm, I wonder if there might be a way to... extract Veil from Shallan

Maybe but that sounds disgusting.  You are removing part of Shallan's personality.  That is wrong.

[Rainier]

4 hours ago, Karger said:

Veil and Radiant are both part of Shallan. 

More like, Shallan and Radiant are parts of Veil. I don't think the part that calls herself Shallan is the real core of the person. After all, there's this quote from OB:

Quote

But Veil is a false face, a part of her said. You could always abandon her.
She strangled that part of her, smothered it deep. Veil was too real, too vital, to abandon. Shallan would be easier.

If there's a hierarchy, it goes Veil > Shallan > Radiant.

[Karger]

Just now, Rainier said:

More like, Shallan and Radiant are parts of Veil. I don't think the part that calls herself Shallan is the real core of the person. After all, there's this quote from OB:

To me at least that quote seems like a manifestation of her desire to escape herself.  Do this fun exercise.  Let us say you met someone who could exchange parts of your sense of self, your you, in exchange for currency.  How would you go about deciding which parts you want to get rid of.  Keep in mind there are limits to how far this person can go.  Would you rank your sexuality beyond your sense of family identity?  What about you gender identity?  Your identity as a friend?  A spouse?  Your love of reading?  Sometimes it looks like a clear choice can be made.  Your sense of self that comes from your family is probably more important then your love of reading.  However your love of reading really comes from your curiosity and sense of enjoyment at life.  Is that worth giving up?

[Watchcry]

9 hours ago, Honorless said:

Hmm, I wonder if there might be a way to... extract Veil from Shallan

Like Steve Urkel did to Stefan in Family Matters!!

[Ailvara]

16 hours ago, Karger said:

To me at least that quote seems like a manifestation of her desire to escape herself.  

She doesn't only say that giving up on Shallan would be easier. She specifically explains: Veil was too real, too vital. 

It's mentioned elsewhere as well, by Mraize I think? Essentially, Veil is at least three times described as "more real" in the books (the third one being one of her squires IIRC)

EDIT Here's the quote:

Quote

"Veil is the false identity, Mraize," Shallan said.  "I am me."

He inspected her.  "I think not."

She met that gaze, but shivered inside.

 

Edited July 31, 2020 by Ailvara

[Karger]

7 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

It's mentioned elsewhere as well, by Mraize I think? Essentially, Veil is at least three times described as "more real" in the books (the third one being one of her squires IIRC)

More real or more important because?  Veil lacks all of Shallan's insecurities.  Given how Shallan feels during WoR and latter during OB it makes sense she would prefer Veil most of the time.

[Ailvara]

Just now, Karger said:

More real or more important because?  Veil lacks all of Shallan's insecurities.  Given how Shallan feels during WoR and latter during OB it makes sense she would prefer Veil most of the time.

Not more important. Not more convenient. Not more preferable. More true.

[Karger]

10 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

More true.

I have no idea what you even mean by that.  Is the hand more truly part of the human body then the face?

[Ailvara]

8 minutes ago, Karger said:

I have no idea what you even mean by that.  Is the hand more truly part of the human body then the face?

No. If you want a metaphor: the way you behave when you're alone or with close friends is more true than the way you behave when you go networking to a business party full of strangers. Or, the way you fall to the ground and cry after you've experienced a trauma is more true that putting on a smile on your face and tell everyone that you're fine while you're dying inside.

That's what 'Shallan' is. A coping mechanism, a person who never experienced those terrible things that happened to her. Plus a well-crafted "perfect daughter", then proper vorin lady. These traits are part of Shallan but not a deep core of her personality. So Veil isn't the whole truth either because she lacks that. But still more true than 'Shallan'. The fact that she remembers, while Shallan doesn't, reinforces that.

Edited July 31, 2020 by Ailvara

[agrabes]

15 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

No. If you want a metaphor: the way you behave when you're alone or with close friends is more true than the way you behave when you go networking to a business party full of strangers. Or, the way you fall to the ground and cry after you've experienced a trauma is more true that putting on a smile on your face and tell everyone that you're fine while you're dying inside.

That's what 'Shallan' is. A coping mechanism, a person who never experienced those terrible things that happened to her. Plus a well-crafted "perfect daughter", then proper vorin lady. These traits are part of Shallan but not a deep core of her personality. So Veil isn't the whole truth either because she lacks that. But still more true than 'Shallan'. The fact that she remembers, while Shallan doesn't, reinforces that.

I get your point about what is more or less true to a person's core, but what you've said is not really accurate to the state of Shallan's character that we've read in the books so far.  When Shallan is alone, or with close friends, in moments she can let her guard down she is never Veil.  So if Veil were the truest part of herself, the part that she is when she can relax and be however she wants to be, then she would revert to Veil or would have acted like Veil prior to her creating the Veil persona in those situations.

In the times we see her at her most relaxed and intimate, she is Shallan.  When she is under stress, that's when Veil comes out.  At least, that's my memory of the books.

I don't think Shallan is a coping mechanism.  I think the opposite is true - Veil and Radiant are coping mechanisms.  We see this in the book.  They are created in response to trauma.  Shallan is a more complete personality - yes she does sometimes has to put on a face for official business or to please others.  But she can also act out childishly, telling bad jokes.  She can express joy and wonder for the natural world and art.  All the good things we associate with her character have been done by the main Shallan personality, even sneaky, roguish behavior.  She's pushed some of that into Veil now, but think about early WoR and even WoK.

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Ailvara said:

No. If you want a metaphor: the way you behave when you're alone or with close friends is more true than the way you behave when you go networking to a business party full of strangers.

Why?  Is that side of you fake?  The best networkers are the ones who really feel what they present. 

1 hour ago, Ailvara said:

Or, the way you fall to the ground and cry after you've experienced a trauma is more true that putting on a smile on your face and tell everyone that you're fine while you're dying inside.

Again among Lightweavers the smile is the manifestation of real feelings.  A desire to be OK and the part of you that still is.  

1 hour ago, Ailvara said:

That's what 'Shallan' is. A coping mechanism, a person who never experienced those terrible things that happened to her. Plus a well-crafted "perfect daughter", then proper vorin lady

Part of Shallan did not experience trauma.  Part of her is a "perfect daughter" and a proper vorin lady.  Her problems don't stem from making "fake" people.  Her problems stem from denying parts of herself.  She does not want to acknowledge her trauma or the fact that she has desires and feelings that she can't reconcile with her vorin lady self so she ignores them. 

Edited July 31, 2020 by Karger

[Ailvara]

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

I get your point about what is more or less true to a person's core, but what you've said is not really accurate to the state of Shallan's character that we've read in the books so far.  When Shallan is alone, or with close friends, in moments she can let her guard down she is never Veil.  So if Veil were the truest part of herself, the part that she is when she can relax and be however she wants to be, then she would revert to Veil or would have acted like Veil prior to her creating the Veil persona in those situations.

In the times we see her at her most relaxed and intimate, she is Shallan.  When she is under stress, that's when Veil comes out.  At least, that's my memory of the books.

I don't think Shallan is a coping mechanism.  I think the opposite is true - Veil and Radiant are coping mechanisms.  We see this in the book.  They are created in response to trauma.  Shallan is a more complete personality - yes she does sometimes has to put on a face for official business or to please others.  But she can also act out childishly, telling bad jokes.  She can express joy and wonder for the natural world and art.  All the good things we associate with her character have been done by the main Shallan personality, even sneaky, roguish behavior.  She's pushed some of that into Veil now, but think about early WoR and even WoK.

Our misunderstandings stem from the fact that there are too many Shallans. The WoK and early-mid WoR 'Shallan' (let's call her 'Shallan 2') is not the same as end-of-OB 'Shallan' (let's call her 'Shallan 3'). And that's because of exactly what you're saying - she's pushing things to Veil and Radiant. So yes, all those bad jokes, roguish behaviour and the rest, it was part of 'Shallan 2' - but is no longer part of current 'Shallan 3'.

So where did I miss 'Shallan 1'? Here she is:

Quote

She didn’t attack like the prim, excitable girl who had been trained by cautious Vorin society. She attacked like the frenzied child who had murdered her mother. The cornered woman who had stabbed Tyn through the chest. She drew upon the part of her that hated the way everyone assumed she was so nice, so sweet. The part of her that hated being described as diverting or clever.

Look, she's not at all relaxed here, and still she's most true to the most deep-down, nearly subconscious part of herself! Being out of control, that's an even better indication of what you're really hiding inside than being in a comfortable environment. One more:

Quote

The timid nature is a result of the problems in her past (see book two’s flashbacks). I see the moments of flaring passion as being far more “her.” [WoB]

So yes, Veil and Radiant are coping mechanisms but so is 'Shallan 2' - the old coping mechanism she used after the trauma of killing her mother. She pushes away the parts that hurt too much, keeps the safe ones - still quite a bit, enough to eventually be distributed between Veil/Radiant/'Shallan 3'. Then adds on top some 'cautious Vorin society training' and the 'timidness' to hide from any next danger.

Now, the problem is, 'Shallan 3' eventually gets an uneven share of 'Shallan 1'. And that's because she got all that 'added on top' part. She is the timid one, she is the well-behaved Vorin lady while Veil has more of her personality that wasn't crafted for the sake of survival, just always there.

39 minutes ago, Karger said:

Why?  Is that side of you fake?  The best networkers are the ones who really feel what they present. 

Again among Lightweavers the smile is the manifestation of real feelings.  A desire to be OK and the part of you that still is.  

It doesn't even need to be fake. Just containing less truth than you would in either comfortable situation - or one when you'd not control yourself. So yeah, even if you don't tell one lie, you'll leave out the fact that your newly-met colleague's political views are absolutely ridiculous to you, won't you?

A desire to feel ok is not the same as feeling ok.

Ok, I'll try one last metaphor and I'm giving up - let's go back to those body parts, shall we.

The brain is a more substantial to who you are than hair. They both exist. They are both parts of your body. But one you can remove and still be almost the same person as you were and another you can't.

39 minutes ago, Karger said:

Part of Shallan did not experience trauma.  Part of her is a "perfect daughter" and a proper vorin lady.  Her problems don't stem from making "fake" people.  Her problems stem from denying parts of herself.  She does not want to acknowledge her trauma or the fact that she has desires and feelings that she can't reconcile with her vorin lady self so she ignores them. 

How did we just go from completely disagreeing to thinking exactly the same? I must have misunderstood.  

Edited July 31, 2020 by Ailvara

[agrabes]

35 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

Our misunderstandings stem from the fact that there are too many Shallans. The WoK and early-mid WoR 'Shallan' (let's call her 'Shallan 2') is not the same as end-of-OB 'Shallan' (let's call her 'Shallan 3'). And that's because of exactly what you're saying - she's pushing things to Veil and Radiant. So yes, all those bad jokes, roguish behaviour and the rest, it was part of 'Shallan 2' - but is no longer part of current 'Shallan 3'.

So where did I miss 'Shallan 1'? Here she is:

Look, she's not at all relaxed here, and still she's most true to the most deep-down, nearly subconscious part of herself. One more:

So yes, Veil and Radiant are coping mechanisms but so is 'Shallan 2' - the old coping mechanism she used after the trauma of killing her mother. She pushes away the parts that hurt too much, keeps the safe ones - still quite a bit, enough to eventually be distributed between Veil/Radiant/'Shallan 3'. Then adds on top some 'cautious Vorin society training' and the 'timidness' to hide from any next danger.

Now, the problem is, 'Shallan 3' eventually gets an uneven share of 'Shallan 1'. And that's because she got all that 'added on top' part. She is the timid one, she is the well-behaved Vorin lady while Veil has more of her personality that wasn't crafted for the sake of survival, just always there.

Thanks good explanation - I think we're closer to being on the same page than not.  I agree with your general idea of possible "Shallan 1/2/3".  I don't think that there's a "Shallan 1" that's nothing like the "Shallan 2" we meet in WoK, but that "Shallan 2" is basically "Shallan 1" with a few pieces chipped off and buried deep in her mind.  And that more pieces get chipped off to create "Shallan 3".

I guess in terms of her timid/aggressive nature and the WoB quote, how I read that is that maybe she did hide away the part of her that was capable of violence and overt action.  Maybe in more of a "suppressed memory" way originally, and then it became DID later.  I think what the WoB means is that the part of her that is timid, like deferring to Jasnah, or feeling she needs to stay quiet when her "betters" are talking, is not the real true her.  That's learned behavior from her childhood and trying to manage her father's abuse.  But the part of her that likes to talk out of turn, cares a little less about propriety, loves art and nature, that we see in WoR and early OB is the passionate part that is most like the real her.