Could Shallan have a fourth, hidden personality?

[Karger]

25 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Since I drew the opposite conclusion from you, I'm interested - what is it about the section we've seen that makes you think Shallan is more in control here vs. the end of OB?  I guess just that you didn't feel Veil was in control, or that you don't think that's a problem? 

From what I can tell Shallan has grown used to this kind of behavior and has adjusted her own so that it is no longer self destructive.  Her personalities are still there and they still do have control sometimes but she is watching them and evaluating them to stop them from going overboard kind of like someone who avoids alcoholism by being accountable to their friends and carefully counting their number of drinks.

Edited July 30, 2020 by Karger

[teknopathetic]

I also thought Shallan was doing much better. Viel is extremely important to her, so keeping her as a part of her is fine. Shallan is now able to bleed between her personas and control who she wants out in order to suit her task. Thats what I want for her. I don't need her to just be one person as her powers let her be so many and connect in such interesting ways. The fact she can control it is a great step in my opinion. It has moved from a crutch towards being a tool. 

Edited July 30, 2020 by teknopathetic

[GriffinMaze]

We have lots of evidence that 'MaskShallan" is just a personality construct invented to protect the original personality of Shallan's youth.. "MaskShallan" keeps her from facing her "truth". 

[Harbour]

My personal theory i cant properly build up without getting hate is that she is somehow connected to Cultivation's vessel. That will be that last truth she keeps hiding.

[agrabes]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

From what I can tell Shallan has grown used to this kind of behavior and has adjusted her own so that it is no longer self destructive.  Her personalities are still there and they still do have control sometimes but she is watching them and evaluating them to stop them from going overboard kind of like someone who avoids alcoholism by being accountable to their friends and carefully counting their number of drinks.

At least in the section we get from RoW, I don't think there's any evidence of this though.  It seems Veil may be filling the role of "moderator" to at least some degree.  "Shallan" herself is the one being pushed into the background by Veil more than once.  We could see more evidence of it later.  I'll be really interested to see what Adolin and the other Radiants think of Shallan's state.  That might give us more perspective.

42 minutes ago, GriffinMaze said:

We have lots of evidence that 'MaskShallan" is just a personality construct invented to protect the original personality of Shallan's youth.. "MaskShallan" keeps her from facing her "truth". 

I don't know that we have lots of evidence of this.  I mean, I know during the shipping wars post OB people theorized that Veil and Radiant had stolen away portions of Shallan, leaving the Shallan that was left with less of herself.  I kind of bought into those theories back then, but I don't think that's probably the case now that we're being told she is being written as if she has DID.  So at least as I understand it, this would not cannibalize her original personality (i.e. if Veil is sneaky, it doesn't mean Shallan can no longer be sneaky) but instead just create an additional separate personality with different primary traits that can handle difficult situations for her.  

But regardless of what people said back then, your theory could be correct and would explain why there was no evidence of her having DID prior to OB.  If she was already just a split personality at that point with her "true" self locked away then we wouldn't see it.

[Karger]

5 minutes ago, agrabes said:

At least in the section we get from RoW, I don't think there's any evidence of this though.  It seems Veil may be filling the role of "moderator" to at least some degree.  "Shallan" herself is the one being pushed into the background by Veil more than once.  We could see more evidence of it later.  I'll be really interested to see what Adolin and the other Radiants think of Shallan's state.  That might give us more perspective.

Quote

Part of the reason they had to be so diligent was because these warcamps were a tempting playground for Veil. Gambling without concern for Vorin propriety?

 

[GriffinMaze]

16 minutes ago, agrabes said:

But regardless of what people said back then, your theory could be correct and would explain why there was no evidence of her having DID prior to OB.  If she was already just a split personality at that point with her "true" self locked away then we wouldn't see it.

I can't remember all the instances off the top of my head but i know when Shallan kills Tyn in Ch34 of WoR its a pretty clear example of this darker more animalistic side of Shallan. There is a much better post about this out on the forums ill try to find

 

Quote

She didn’t attack like the prim, excitable girl who had been trained by cautious Vorin society. She attacked like the frenzied child who had murdered her mother. The cornered woman who had stabbed Tyn through the chest. She drew upon the part of her that hated the way everyone assumed she was so nice, so sweet. The part of her that hated being described as diverting or clever.

Quote

But Veil is a false face, a part of her said. You could always abandon her.
She strangled that part of her, smothered it deep. Veil was too real, too vital, to abandon. Shallan would be easier.

Everyone responding here should read this. There was a lot of good work and discussion 

Edited July 30, 2020 by GriffinMaze

[Bigmikey357]

From what I have seen,  and in light of the WOB that Shallan's story was always meant to have some DID elements in it, I believe that we have never really met the 'real' Shallan.  The girl who sailed to Khalbaranth looking for a soul(caster)to steal  was merely her first crafted personality.  To deal with her issues in her home she only really needed the one. Now that she faces world ending threats and insidious organizations her base Shallan persona was unequipped to deal with, she created a couple more. She's Cosmere Steven Leeds. 

I feel like her limiting her load sharing personas to 3 and being able to switch between them without strain or conflict is indeed a step in the right direction.  That equilibrium is not enough to push her to her final Truth but it's enough to keep her from backsliding out of the truths she's already spoken. And to me, the fact that she's even able to pose the question to herself is to me a sign of progress.  Remember she had to be forced to get her latest Truth. Pattern won't be able to make her say her next one.

I assume that she's actually going to overcome this at some point.  Do we have a theory on what that'll look like?  Will we get total reintegration?  Will she still be 3 ladies in one, each with a shadow Shallan director? Will she soulcast a body for each of her personas leaving her free to go draw beggars and barmaids on the Purelake? I look forward to seeing the results. 

[Rainier]

1 hour ago, GriffinMaze said:

Everyone responding here should read this. There was a lot of good work and discussion 

Indeed. I see we're rediscovering the depths plumbed in those ill-fated Kaladin-Shallan-Adolin love triangle threads from post-OB.

Yes, I think the personality called Shallan is just one more mask. I think Veil is the closest thing we get to the 'real' Shallan, as the mask-Shallan is what she had to use as a child. The mask gets the name Shallan, while the truest personality gets to hide behind Veil, because as a child she was called Shallan, and she was using her mask.

Once she became a Radiant, she had to create Radiant, since neither mask-Shallan nor Veil were sufficient to meet the responsibilities required of her. If she were required to do something that exceed the boundaries of her current personae, she would create a new one.

Shallan (mask) is the prim proper lighteyed Vorin daughter, page, betrothed, wife. The most prominent relationships are with men and authority, specifically deference to authority. This transfers from her father to Jasnah in book 1.

Veil is the subversion of Shallan, the darkeyed trickster, manipulator, and spy. This is the one who hatched the plot to steal Jasnah's soulcaster, the one who learned from Tyn and used her wits to infiltrate both the warcamps and the Ghostbloods.

Radiant is what was left out of the first two, the authority, the responsibility, the honor of being a Radiant, and the bravery required to fight like one. This is the noble, dutiful protector, the brave warrior, and the cold, unemotional, and logical parts of her broken psyche. It's also the one we've seen the least of, thus far.

Edited July 30, 2020 by Rainier

[Karger]

On 7/30/2020 at 4:40 PM, Rainier said:

. I think Veil is the closest thing we get to the 'real' Shallan

I think that way of thinking is somewhat problematic.  Sure Veil is arguably the most complex of the three "fake", for lack of a better word, personalities Shallan uses but that does not mean she is the closest to the "real one" just that it is the one she uses most often and the one she gave more of herself to.  Adolin for example would not consider Veil the most important part of Shallan because Veil lacks any real capacity for intimacy.  Jasnah would find Veil a summation of Shallan least valuable traits.  Her brothers probably like Veil but none of them would stick their necks out for her.  Veil is Shallan's idealized version of the parts of her that don't need help.

Edited August 7, 2020 by Karger

[Rainier]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

Sure Veil is arguably the most complex of the three "fake", for lack of a better word, personalities Shallan uses but that does not mean she is the closest to the "real one" just that it is the one she uses most often and the one she gave more of herself to.

I can accept that simply because Veil is the most complex doesn't make her the real one. This, on the other hand, does make me think Veil is the real one, mainly because that's how she thinks of herself.

Quote

But Veil is a false face, a part of her said. You could always abandon her.
She strangled that part of her, smothered it deep. Veil was too real, too vital, to abandon. Shallan would be easier.

From inside her own head, Veil is too real, Shallan is less real/vital than Veil, and it would be easier to abandon Shallan than to abandon Veil. That tells me Veil is the real person, or the closest thing to it.

 

3 minutes ago, Karger said:

Adolin for example would not consider Veil the most important part of Shallan because Veil lacks any real capacity for intimacy. 

Why would I ask Adolin anything? He doesn't know her, he doesn't know the depths of her personalities. He's only ever seen mask-Shallan, because that's the role she chooses to show him, most of the time.

I could list all of the things mask-Shallan and Radiant lack the capacity to do, but it would get too long. The aversion to intimacy is insufficient to call Veil the secondary or tertiary personality, when she's so clearly the primary.

[Karger]

1 minute ago, Rainier said:

From inside her own head, Veil is too real, Shallan is less real/vital than Veil, and it would be easier to abandon Shallan than to abandon Veil. That tells me Veil is the real person, or the closest thing to it.

Well I personally think that having a finger amputated is preferable to a leg but that does not mean they are both real parts of my personality.

2 minutes ago, Rainier said:

Why would I ask Adolin anything? He doesn't know her, he doesn't know the depths of her personalities. He's only ever seen mask-Shallan, because that's the role she chooses to show him, most of the time.

And therefore his relationship to maskShallan is not real?  The feelings maskShallan develops do not exist?

2 minutes ago, Rainier said:

The aversion to intimacy is insufficient to call Veil the secondary or tertiary personality, when she's so clearly the primary.

But the primary when?  If the part of me that was a cosmere fan was the primary 24/7 I doubt I could get through my day.  Human society, status, and priorities are all constantly in flux.  The skills we use under those circumstances are likewise in flux.

[GriffinMaze]

20 minutes ago, Karger said:

I think that way of thinking is somewhat problematic.  Sure Veil is arguably the most complex of the three "fake", for lack of a better word, personalities Shallan uses but that does not mean she is the closest to the "real one" just that it is the one she uses most often and the one she gave more of herself to.  Adolin for example would not consider Veil the most important part of Shallan because Veil lacks any real capacity for intimacy.  Jasnah would find Veil a summation of Shallan least valuable traits.  Her brother probably like Veil but none of them would stick their necks out for her.  Veil is Shallan's idealized version of the parts of her that don't need help.

Nothing you said contradicts @Rainier 's post. Lost of strawmen in your post. Nothing is ever said about which personality is "most important" and other characters reactions to Shallan's personalities are all irrelevant when discussing which personality is the closest to Shallan's "real" personality

Edited July 30, 2020 by GriffinMaze

[Karger]

12 minutes ago, GriffinMaze said:

Nothing you said contradicts @Rainier 's post. Lost of strawmen in your post. Nothing is ever said about which personality is "most important" and other characters reactions to Shallan's personalities are all irrelevant when discussing which personality is the closest to Shallan's "real" personality

I said problematic, read misleading.  Not wrong.

Edited July 30, 2020 by Karger

[GriffinMaze]

Just now, Karger said:

I said problematic.  Read misleading.  Not wrong.

Its a persons opinion? He (and I) think the Veil personality is the most authentic and closest to the "real" Shallan.

There is nothing problematic or misleading about that. 

33 minutes ago, Karger said:

 Adolin for example would not consider Veil the most important part of Shallan because Veil lacks any real capacity for intimacy.  Jasnah would find Veil a summation of Shallan least valuable traits.  Her brother probably like Veil but none of them would stick their necks out for her.  .

Other characters opinions have absolutely no impact on the opinion that " the Veil personality is the most authentic and closest to the "real" Shallan."

 

[Karger]

13 minutes ago, GriffinMaze said:

Its a persons opinion?

As is mine.  The full quote is...

49 minutes ago, Karger said:

I think that way of thinking is somewhat problematic

14 minutes ago, GriffinMaze said:

I) think the Veil personality is the most authentic and closest to the "real" Shallan.

And I think that that is not a good way of looking at things.  Like the torso and head may be the "most important" parts of a human body(we would die instantly without them) but at the same time having hands and legs informs and has been critical to the human experience.  Saying that Veil as a character is a loose approximation of Shallan or the closest we see might both technically be true yet bring you to some very incorrect conclusions.  Radiant's perceptive is real.  The feelings "real" Shallan gets from her are real.  Same with Mask-Shallan.  If I had only ever associated with Veil and then found out about her other two aspects I would not really feel that I knew "real" Shallan particularly well.

16 minutes ago, GriffinMaze said:

Other characters opinions have absolutely no impact on the opinion that " the Veil personality is the most authentic and closest to the "real" Shallan."

What do her brothers think?  They associate with both maskShallan and Veil frequently.  What does Shallan herself think yes you pulled that quote but A Shallan is an unreliable narrator and was speaking will stressed and B I am not sure she considered the full ramifications of what she was sugjesting.

[Greywatch]

@Karger and @GriffinMaze I don't think anything is wrong yet, but it feels like the temperature of the room is heating up a little bit - it's for fun! Let's remember to be civil and try to give each other the benefit of the doubt.

I can see where Rainier is getting at with the basis of their theory, but Karger is also valid in the idea that true information about Shallan might be intentionally being presented to us from external characters. It's too soon to tell what's going to happen in canon, so at this point, there's no use in calling other people factually wrong. When it comes to the mystery of Shallan's mental state, lots hasn't been confirmed for the readers yet.

[LordTheodore]

I think the idea of shallan's personalities being closer or further away from real shallan is flawed. I think it is a binary case, either all of her personalities are real and part of her or each of them are completely false faces created by her own imagination for the situation she found herself in.

[agrabes]

Yeah - sorry all I did not mean to rekindle those old debates from the shipping wars days 3 years ago.  

@Karger Thanks for providing the quote from the book.  I did see that one, but read it as either Veil self-disciplining or that when 2 of the 3 personalities agree they can override the other.  I think really to know the true state of things we need to see what happens once we see Shallan in situations that aren't a stealth mission.  When she's off the clock who does she default to?  Does she still think of herself as Veil?  If so, that's what is concerning to me.  Before, when she was just relaxing, she was Shallan.  

I think I've kind of isolated what bugs me about this - I liked the Shallan we read in WoK, WoR, and early OB.  She was insecure and didn't realize how competent and intelligent she really was.  She didn't really always understand how damaged she was and also didn't realize that despite all her hardships she still was a bit sheltered in some ways and had certain privileges.  But it was really fun to watch her grow and succeed despite her lack of confidence.  And at the beginning of OB, she was just starting to become a bit confident.  When Jasnah came back, being forced back into a student/subordinate role kind of shattered her fragile self esteem and I think was what really started her on the downward spiral.  I don't particularly like Veil, Radiant, or a possible blended character with all three personas getting lines in here and there like Ch. 2 of RoW.  And I feel like the Shallan from the first 2 1/4 books has lost herself and may never come back.  I like the idea that she has to face dark times and may get worse before she gets better.  But I don't like the idea that she might not ever be the same person we met in WoK again.  That's why I hope that at the end of the day, she becomes a wiser, more self confident Shallan again and maybe she can let Veil or Radiant out occasionally, maybe she even talks to them in her head, or maybe she becomes a Shallan who has a few of Veil's personality traits, but she's still Shallan.

 

Quote

But Veil is a false face, a part of her said. You could always abandon her.
She strangled that part of her, smothered it deep. Veil was too real, too vital, to abandon. Shallan would be easier.

We see several lines like this in the RoW Ch. 2 POV and they are what make me feel there is still something majorly wrong.  The Shallan we were presented in WoK is the "Shallan" persona.  We can theorize that that persona is simply another false front, hiding a true self we've never yet seen.  It might be true.  But I don't think so.  For two whole books, we saw one version of Shallan.  I think just by sake of simplicity, we should assume that the Shallan we saw first and have seen the most of is the one that is the closest to her "real" self.  It may not have been the complete, "true" Shallan, but it's the closest thing we've seen.  So this line to me is a sign that there is still a lot of danger for Shallan.  Her created false personas want to destroy the part of her that is most like herself, most like the person she was prior to creating the two recent personas.  Even if the Shallan we saw in WoK was also a false face, we have to assume that it is the most like her "true" self that we have seen, because there were fewer alternate personalities at that time.

[Karger]

10 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Thanks for providing the quote from the book

That was not me.  I don't think there is any one true Shallan.  Shallan is a complex multifaceted entity. 

Quote

She became a new person with every heartbeat.

Shallan was a thousand people in a moment.

But which one was her?

All of them.

 

Edited July 31, 2020 by Karger

[agrabes]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

That was not me.  I don't think there is any one true Shallan.  Shallan is a complex multifaceted entity. 

 

Right, sorry a bit confusing.  I was talking about the quote you did provide, but then also quoted a quote someone else provided.

I think there is one true Shallan - who has many facets.  A person without DID can express different aspects of themselves at different times as called for by the situation but always remain themselves.  And I think the excerpt you just quoted now - the "all of them" portion - is that healthy part of her brain trying to convince herself that not only is she all of them, but all of them are her.  To me, that's a distinction.  Shallan can be sneaky and roguish, as long as she's still Shallan at heart.  That's Shallan showing her roguish side, being multi-faceted.  Veil controlling Shallan's body is different.  Veil is what you would get if you took Shallan and took away all her personality traits except for roguishness.  

Edited July 31, 2020 by agrabes

[Karger]

Just now, agrabes said:

Veil controlling Shallan's body is different.  Veil is what you would get if you took Shallan and took away all her personality traits except for roguishness.  

Single faceted Shallan.  Only one aspect of her greater whole.  No wonder when Shallan took off all restraints on her she messed up.

[Harbour]

Given that she has mental disorder i see all her personas as the defensive answers to all critical situations. Veil was the answer to boredome and need for espionage, Radiant was the answer to the need of the presentable face, WoR Shallan for the most parts was the answer to betrothal. The only natural part of her, it seems to me, was the one she said she always liked to study nature over the art. It felt like one of the few features that original Shallan impressed.

That being said, all her personas can be counted as the parts of her while the original she is somewhere there if exists at all. She is everyone and she is no one, or elusive so to speak. At least i see her that way.

[IcaroRibeiro]

Her next truth and probably last ideal (I'm terrified, I've killed dad, I've kill mom and let dad take the blame) is something about the nature of her powers

She was speaking ideas and light-weaving since her childhood. It's not exactly expected for children to make Nahel Bond

The are things about her family we don't know yet. Hoid seems specially interested on her since always. There must be something important about her for Hoid find her since her childhood. Pattern said he choose her family because of their lies. Which lies? 

And she knows that, probably her mom told her so

Edited July 31, 2020 by IcaroRibeiro

[Jenet]

I find it extremely interesting to find that Shallan has an even deeper and more terrible truth to say, and that she has come so far as to admit that this truth exists. I agree with those who think that all the aspects of Shallan we have seen until now have been masks, also the Shallan in the flashbacks. In fact I know many people who only wear different kinds of masks, and who have hidden their real selves all their lives, even without a diagnose. I have no first hand experience with DID, so bear with my ignorance in the following.

I also find it interesting to see more of Navani in the same context. Until now, we have seen the unflappable queen, the warm mother and the loving wife. At the same time we have seen a little bit of the rebel. But we have never before seen the insecure Navani. The bullied Navani. The impostor syndrome Navani. The country girl Navani.

I love to imagine that the two women are not so different. They just have come to different stages in their lives. And perhaps it is possible to assume that Shallan has been through more terrible things in her childhood, and thus has a more difficult way to travel.

I love the way Sanderson is telling us the story through the eyes of the different characters. That means we must interpret what they tell us. And Shallan's POVs are especially untrustworthy. Not because she is a liar, but because she has such a low opinion of herself. Yes, well, Pattern would perhaps call them lies.

Why did Shallan's mother find it necessary to get help to kill her own daughter? We know that she had connections in the Skybreakers, and that they sought up and killed radiants in the bud. But we also know that the Davar family had plenty of history when it comes to the Nahel bond. What made it so terrible for her mother that Shallan could surgebind?

And what made Pattern attracted to her in the first place? We can only speculate, which I won't do here. I expect Sanderson to come up with something we never would have imagined. I only wish to imagine what all this must have done to a small child. She was nine when she killed her mother, wasn't she? Then she must have been even younger when the most terrible thing happened. And there must have been guilt in her for what happened. Not necessarily her fault, but guilt installed in her, either from others or from herself. Children extremely easily pick up guilt feelings for what happens to them, even though they were not the least to blame.

I dearly hope that Shallan will be able to face her last truth, and that coping with this will help her get through to the strength we glimpse in the "little girl who killed her mother". Not because killing is admirable, but because that feeling of self defence is the glimpse she remembers when confronting the Midnight Mother, and that urges her to fight with perhaps a tiny bit of her original self exposed under the layers of disguise.

As a teacher, I have recently watched and helped a student get rid of his masks. An earlier orphan with heaps of qualities that he could not see himself. He was only mirroring his surroundings, and we could not see his real self. An important healing took place, and suddenly his serene self came out. It was quite a shock, so different from everything else we had seen from him.

I think Shallan is like that as well. That her serene self is still hidden, and that we have not seen it yet. But everything else we have seen is also Shallan. Everyone is multifaceted. 

Veil is the tough and sturdy part. I understand the thought that Veil is the closest to the real Shallan, because her eyes are the only ones that betray her pain, and the barkeepers see it. They have practice. But Mask Shallan and Radiant are parts of her too, and I like the way she now is able to juggle them at will, knowing all the time which one that is in control. Much like we all do when letting parts of us take control as needs arise. And when out spying, she has little use for Mask Shallan, but ample use for Radiant and Veil. She reminds me so of Steven Leeds with his aspects that he can create whenever he needs a new skill. He learnt to live with all these awesome skills in his head, and I am sure that Shallan will too.

So, enter Navani. Let's look at her as a mirror of what Shallan can grow into when she matures. Sanderson lets us come to know all his characters at a certain point in life, and later tells ut stories about how they became that person, or how they developed afterwards. It means we learn how difficult it is to judge a person by how they seem right now. What if Navani was more like Shallan when she was younger? What if she, too, have skeletons in her closet? What if she has grown to flick pamphlets across the face of everyone who picks at her and to do whatever she likes regardless of what the ardents or the court says, because she has lived a hard life when she was young?

Navani is also an artist. An engineer who doesn't bother with the details, and gives her subordinates all the credit for her ingenuity. I can see traces of the insecure girl in her. And hints as to how she has matured into the woman who can give the Blackthorn a partner of equal stature. 

You don't become Dalinar's equal without struggle. I think and hope that Shallan will be able to travel the same way of queens.

 

Edited July 31, 2020 by Jenet
typo