Could Shallan have a fourth, hidden personality?

[scm288]

In Chapter 2, we see Shallan have a tussle with her other selves.

The thing is, her other selves don't think of Shallan as, well, Shallan. Or Shallan Prime, or anything like that. The Shallan from the first couple of books--the artist, the quiet girl of House Davar, Jasnah's ward, Adolin's betrothed--is treated by them as just another personality, as insubstantial as Veil or Radiant. Just another face to wear.

So that gets me thinking: is it possible that the Shallan we know is just another face to wear?

As evidenced by Chapter 2, there are deeper truths that Shallan still hasn't admitted to herself. There's something dangerous lurking there, deep beneath the surface. Is it possible that there really is another Shallan--a Shallan Prime, as it were, the original Shallan--a fourth personality who developed artistic Shallan as a defense mechanism?

How do we know that we don't have a Typhoid Mary on our hands here?

[Pathfinder]

13 minutes ago, scm288 said:

In Chapter 2, we see Shallan have a tussle with her other selves.

The thing is, her other selves don't think of Shallan as, well, Shallan. Or Shallan Prime, or anything like that. The Shallan from the first couple of books--the artist, the quiet girl of House Davar, Jasnah's ward, Adolin's betrothed--is treated by them as just another personality, as insubstantial as Veil or Radiant. Just another face to wear.

So that gets me thinking: is it possible that the Shallan we know is just another face to wear?

As evidenced by Chapter 2, there are deeper truths that Shallan still hasn't admitted to herself. There's something dangerous lurking there, deep beneath the surface. Is it possible that there really is another Shallan--a Shallan Prime, as it were, the original Shallan--a fourth personality who developed artistic Shallan as a defense mechanism?

How do we know that we don't have a Typhoid Mary on our hands here?

In DID (I have been reading up since Brandon confirmed that is the direction he is taking Shallan), the original personality is not always the primary. It looks like Veil has become the primary. That does not mean as you posited that there could be a fourth original personality, and that up until recent, "Shallan" was the primary. Just primary and original are different things, so it could work in either situation (your theory, or not). 

[scm288]

2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

That does not mean as you posited that there could be a fourth original personality, and that up until recent, "Shallan" was the primary. Just primary and original are different things, so it could work in either situation (your theory, or not). 

Good clarification. By "Prime" I meant original, but I get your point. Veil certainly seems to have taken over as the prime personality. (I have to wonder how Adolin feels about that development--or if he's even aware...)

I suspect that the unspoken truth Shallan is hiding is going to complicate these issues quite a bit. Shallan seemed terrified of the prospect of confronting that truth. What could be so much hairier than admitting to killing your own parents?

[Jon]

I'm not sure we could say that Veil is the primary personality from one chapter alone. She is out spying on people in the chapter, it makes sense for her to be Veil at that point.

[Karger]

Shallan has an infinite number of personalities that are reborn and die each day.  Just like everyone else.  She might or might not decide to give a name and face to another group of them.

[agrabes]

Another interesting element to the Shallan personas-

At the end of OB, a significant point is made that Veil is the one with bad taste in men (aka, the one who is interested in Kaladin).  When we open up on her POV section in Chapter 2, Veil says Windrunners are annoying and suffocating goody two shoes.  You have to think she's not too interested in Kaladin anymore.  So, it seems there's been a shift in Veil's character traits.  Was this something that just happened naturally, or did Shallan cause it to happen?

It seems like one of three things happened:

1) Shallan intentionally modified Veil's personality to stop unwanted leering.

2) Shallan has just settled into her marriage and no longer has those lingering feelings of attraction so they no longer manifest in Veil.

3) The Veil persona itself can change its opinions over time.

 

Either way, I think it's an interesting window into how these personas work.  

[The Ryshadium]

There is not enough evidence that Veil is now the main personality. Veil was just the best option for the situation in this chapter.

 

[Pathfinder]

2 hours ago, Jon said:

I'm not sure we could say that Veil is the primary personality from one chapter alone. She is out spying on people in the chapter, it makes sense for her to be Veil at that point.

 

55 minutes ago, The Ryshadium said:

There is not enough evidence that Veil is now the main personality. Veil was just the best option for the situation in this chapter.

 

Hmmm, perhaps I should clarify. As I stated there is "primary" who is the main operating persona given the current circumstances and there is the "original" which is the persona which existed prior to the fracturing. Veil mentioned she had been spending more than a month trying to get kidnapped. Which means during that time the triumvirate has been primarily Veil. Primary does not mean controlling. Alters pop up in order to handle situations that the original feels they cannot. For more than a month, the situation presented was handled by Veil because Shallan deemed herself unable to, and Veil best suited. So Veil acted as primary. I am not saying Veil is taking control from Shallan. If a circumstance presented itself over a period of time that was best suited to Radiant, then Radiant would be termed the primary. That help? 

 

edit: also @scm288 just in case I wanted to apologize because upon re-reading my earlier post, I don't want you to think me defining primary and original as it proving or saying your theory is incorrect. I meant to say it could work within your theory or without, but I forgot to put "not" in the right location, so it may seem like I am saying your theory doesn't work because of that. Hmmm, that may complicate things further, but hopefully it was clear enough. Thanks!

Edited July 29, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Karger]

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

At the end of OB, a significant point is made that Veil is the one with bad taste in men (aka, the one who is interested in Kaladin).  When we open up on her POV section in Chapter 2, Veil says Windrunners are annoying and suffocating goody two shoes

I think that is why her taste in men is bad.  She likes men she hates.

[agrabes]

38 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

 

Hmmm, perhaps I should clarify. As I stated there is "primary" who is the main operating persona given the current circumstances and there is the "original" which is the persona which existed prior to the fracturing. Veil mentioned she had been spending more than a month trying to get kidnapped. Which means during that time the triumvirate has been primarily Veil. Primary does not mean controlling. Alters pop up in order to handle situations that the original feels they cannot. For more than a month, the situation presented was handled by Veil because Shallan deemed herself unable to, and Veil best suited. So Veil acted as primary. I am not saying Veil is taking control from Shallan. If a circumstance presented itself over a period of time that was best suited to Radiant, then Radiant would be termed the primary. That help? 

 

edit: also @scm288 just in case I wanted to apologize because upon re-reading my earlier post, I don't want you to think me defining primary and original as it proving or saying your theory is incorrect. I meant to say it could work within your theory or without, but I forgot to put "not" in the right location, so it may seem like I am saying your theory doesn't work because of that. Hmmm, that may complicate things further, but hopefully it was clear enough. Thanks!

You know, I was going to say I thought you were wrong about this, but I went back to read it again and I think you are completely correct at least that there is a "primary" and that Veil is it right now.  The start of the POV section starts with "Veil was growing upset".  It's like this is a "Veil" POV section, not Shallan.  It's all written as if this is Veil's body, with Shallan and Radiant living inside it.  This is not just Shallan acting as Veil.  We've seen that before, and it's always Shallan in the background making comments like "Well, Veil did something like this, which is not how I would have done it, but that's why I have Veil" and here we see the reverse.  Veil is now the one saying those things about Shallan.

Personally, I hope this is not just a new reality with Shallan permanently having some version of DID.  It makes me feel a little uncomfortable reading these chapters honestly - that she's lost control of herself to this degree.  Hopefully, this is more of a magical ailment and not a real mental illness that predates her lightweaver abilities.  I'm hoping the 5th Ideal/4th Truth will be something that helps her re-integrate herself.

[Pathfinder]

13 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Personally, I hope this is not just a new reality with Shallan permanently having some version of DID.  It makes me feel a little uncomfortable reading these chapters honestly - that she's lost control of herself to this degree.  Hopefully, this is more of a magical ailment and not a real mental illness that predates her lightweaver abilities.  I'm hoping the 5th Ideal/4th Truth will be something that helps her re-integrate herself.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news in this sense, but it is going the DID route, which is why out of curiosity I began to read up more on it. WoB below:

 

 

I know people who relate a lot to Shallan's arc due to how similar her personalities are to Dissociative Identity Disorder. Did you intentionally write her to be recognizable DID?

Brandon Sanderson

I did, but I shied away from it in the earlier books, because I knew I was going to be doing fantastical things, and I didn't want to be offering too much commentary on DID. That was kind of my worry. With Kaladin, I knew depression well enough from family members and things that I felt like I could be a very strong contributor to the conversation. But, I started with Shallan saying, "I don't know if I'm gonna go this route." But then, the further I went, the more I felt it would be irresponsible to not do this. And so, in the last books, I just bit the bullet, dug really far into the DSMV and into reading firsthand, primary accounts from people. We got a very helpful person with DID to be one of our beta readers for this last book. And I just did my best to present it accurately and to present the non-Hollywood verison of it. And so, basically, Oathbringer and Rhythm of War lean into it a little more than the first two books do, though that was where I was going. And I do have a working knowledge of Dissociative Identity Disorder, and did even back then. I don't think I did a terrible job, but I think it would have been irresponsible for me to go forward without digging in a little further.

YouTube Livestream 13 (July 23, 2020)

[agrabes]

13 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news in this sense, but it is going the DID route, which is why out of curiosity I began to read up more on it. WoB below:

 

 

I know people who relate a lot to Shallan's arc due to how similar her personalities are to Dissociative Identity Disorder. Did you intentionally write her to be recognizable DID?

Brandon Sanderson

I did, but I shied away from it in the earlier books, because I knew I was going to be doing fantastical things, and I didn't want to be offering too much commentary on DID. That was kind of my worry. With Kaladin, I knew depression well enough from family members and things that I felt like I could be a very strong contributor to the conversation. But, I started with Shallan saying, "I don't know if I'm gonna go this route." But then, the further I went, the more I felt it would be irresponsible to not do this. And so, in the last books, I just bit the bullet, dug really far into the DSMV and into reading firsthand, primary accounts from people. We got a very helpful person with DID to be one of our beta readers for this last book. And I just did my best to present it accurately and to present the non-Hollywood verison of it. And so, basically, Oathbringer and Rhythm of War lean into it a little more than the first two books do, though that was where I was going. And I do have a working knowledge of Dissociative Identity Disorder, and did even back then. I don't think I did a terrible job, but I think it would have been irresponsible for me to go forward without digging in a little further.

YouTube Livestream 13 (July 23, 2020)

Yeah, I'd seen some WoBs to that effect before too but didn't remember all the details.  I guess I'll still hold out hope that it's somehow a magical ailment that is being portrayed realistically while she has it and that it will vanish once she learns to use her magic better or that she can at least get it under better control by the end of RoW or at some point in SA5.  But, yeah, I guess I have to prepare for the possibility that there will always be 3 personalities.  I don't know enough about the real disorder to know if it's a permanent condition, or if people can "recover" or at least get to a point where they have a more "normalized" view of themselves.

[dgreene196]

38 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Personally, I hope this is not just a new reality with Shallan permanently having some version of DID.  It makes me feel a little uncomfortable reading these chapters honestly - that she's lost control of herself to this degree.  Hopefully, this is more of a magical ailment and not a real mental illness that predates her lightweaver abilities.  I'm hoping the 5th Ideal/4th Truth will be something that helps her re-integrate herself.

What we've seen in this one scene seems to be a continuation of where Shallan ended in Oathbringer.  She settled on 3 to deal with her world for the time being:  Veil, Radiant, and Shallan.  There's a point in the Battle of Thaylen Field where it seems as though she considers allowing herself to fracture into many more component parts.  3 personalities was the balance she chose at that point.  It would definitely be satisfying to see her able to reintegrate herself into a single Shallan, she's definitely not there yet.  Maybe the next truth will be step in that direction.

I don't think she's lost control.  I think her 3 personalties have found a balance, and the mission she's on against Ialai and the Sons of Honor (which presumably will take up much of Act 1 for her), will rely on Veil for the spying/undercover work, Radiant as the stormlight-wielding weapon, and Shallan as the public Urithiru persona.  Or something like that.

It may not always be comfortable to read, but it should be interesting.

[Cheat Commando]

Just reading the title of this topic gave me shivers. I honestly thought we had gotten to the source of Shallan's troubles, but it makes sense that something had to have happened in her early childhood fo her to attract Pattern and swear a few Ideals. I can see there being something else beneath the surface that I hope she faces in this book.

I'm going to reread her flashbacks with this theory in mind; maybe something will pop out.

[Pathfinder]

So there is a whole bunch of stuff that applies that I read, so I will spoiler it, and just bring up a few points from it that I feel are pertinent. For more in-depth, the spoiler tag includes the full details. 

 

1. DID very rarely is fully integrated back to only one personality

2. Further personalities can be produced dependent on continuing trauma. 

3. Goal of treatment is to handle coping with the trauma so dependence on alters is lessened leading to integration. 

 

Spoiler

 

Treatment aims to increase integrated functioning.^[6] The International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation has published guidelines for phase-oriented treatment in adults as well as children and adolescents that are widely used in the field of DID treatment.^[8][6] The guidelines state that "a desirable treatment outcome is a workable form of integration or harmony among alternate identities". Some experts in treating people with DID use the techniques recommended in the 2011 treatment guidelines.^[8] The empirical research includes the longitudinal TOP DD treatment study, which found that patients showed "statistically significant reductions in dissociation, PTSD, distress, depression, hospitalisations, suicide attempts, self-harm, dangerous behaviours, drug use and physical pain" and improved overall functioning.^[8] Treatment effects have been studied for over thirty years, with some studies having a follow-up of ten years.^[8] Adult and child treatment guidelines exist that suggest three phased approach,^[6] and are based on expert consensus.^[8][6] Highly experienced therapists have few patients that achieve a unified identity.^[65] Common treatment methods include an eclectic mix of psychotherapy techniques, including cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT),^[6][18] insight-oriented therapy,^[16] dialectical behavioral therapy (DBT), hypnotherapy and eye movement desensitization and reprocessing (EMDR). Medications can be used for comorbid disorders or targeted symptom relief, for example antidepressants or treatments to improve sleep.^[6][44] Some behavior therapists initially use behavioral treatments such as only responding to a single identity, and then use more traditional therapy once a consistent response is established.^[66]

Brief treatment due to managed care may be difficult, as individuals diagnosed with DID may have unusual difficulties in trusting a therapist and take a prolonged period to form a comfortable therapeutic alliance.[6] Regular contact (at least weekly) is recommended, and treatment generally lasts years—not weeks or months.[18][non-primary source needed] Sleep hygiene has been suggested as a treatment option, but has not been tested. In general there are very few clinical trials on the treatment of DID, none of which were randomized controlled trials.[30][disputed – discuss]

Therapy for DID is generally phase oriented.^[8] Different alters may appear based on their greater ability to deal with specific situational stresses or threats. While some patients may initially present with a large number of alters, this number may reduce during treatment—though it is considered important for the therapist to become familiar with at least the more prominent personality states as the "host" personality may not be the "true" identity of the patient. Specific alters may react negatively to therapy, fearing the therapist's goal is to eliminate the alter (particularly those associated with illegal or violent activities). A more realistic and appropriate goal of treatment is to integrate adaptive responses to abuse, injury or other threats into the overall personality structure.^{[18][non-primary source needed]} There is debate over issues such as whether exposure therapy (reliving traumatic memories, also known as abreaction), engagement with alters and physical contact during therapy are appropriate and there are clinical opinions both for and against each option with little high-quality evidence for any position.^{[citation needed]}

Brandt et al., commenting on the lack of empirical studies of treatment effectiveness, conducted a survey of 36 clinicians expert in treating dissociative disorder (DD) who recommended a three-stage treatment. They agreed that skill building in the first stage is important so the patient can learn to handle high risk, potentially dangerous behavior, as well as emotional regulation, interpersonal effectiveness and other practical behaviors. In addition, they recommended "trauma-based cognitive therapy" to reduce cognitive distortions related to trauma; they also recommended that the therapist deal with the dissociated identities early in treatment. In the middle stage, they recommended graded exposure techniques, along with appropriate interventions as needed. The treatment in the last stage was more individualized; few with DD [sic] became integrated into one identity.^[65]

The first phase of therapy focuses on symptoms and relieving the distressing aspects of the condition, ensuring the safety of the individual, improving the patient's capacity to form and maintain healthy relationships, and improving general daily life functioning. Comorbid disorders such as substance abuse and eating disorders are addressed in this phase of treatment.^[6] The second phase focuses on stepwise exposure to traumatic memories and prevention of re-dissociation. The final phase focuses on reconnecting the identities of disparate alters into a single functioning identity with all its memories and experiences intact.^[6]

A study was conducted to develop an "expertise-based prognostic model for the treatment of complex posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and dissociative identity disorder (DID)". Researchers constructed a two-stage survey and factor analyses performed on the survey elements found 51 factors common to complex PTSD and DID. The authors concluded from their findings: "The model is supportive of the current phase-oriented treatment model, emphasizing the strengthening of the therapeutic relationship and the patient's resources in the initial stabilization phase. Further research is needed to test the model's statistical and clinical validity

 

 

[agrabes]

21 minutes ago, dgreene196 said:

What we've seen in this one scene seems to be a continuation of where Shallan ended in Oathbringer.  She settled on 3 to deal with her world for the time being:  Veil, Radiant, and Shallan.  There's a point in the Battle of Thaylen Field where it seems as though she considers allowing herself to fracture into many more component parts.  3 personalities was the balance she chose at that point.  It would definitely be satisfying to see her able to reintegrate herself into a single Shallan, she's definitely not there yet.  Maybe the next truth will be step in that direction.

I don't think she's lost control.  I think her 3 personalties have found a balance, and the mission she's on against Ialai and the Sons of Honor (which presumably will take up much of Act 1 for her), will rely on Veil for the spying/undercover work, Radiant as the stormlight-wielding weapon, and Shallan as the public Urithiru persona.  Or something like that.

It may not always be comfortable to read, but it should be interesting.

Personally, I consider it out of control if she believes that there are three distinct personalities with their own wills living within her body and extremely out of control if she sees herself "Shallan" as not the main personality who is in control.  When she started, she was in control.  She created Veil to do the things that needed to be done sneakily, but Veil was a character that she (Shallan) played.  Veil had no will of her own, it was Shallan acting as Veil.  Then, slowly Veil did have a will of her own, but Shallan was still in control.  Veil only came out when Shallan wanted Veil to come out.  Then, Shallan got scared of using her shardblade and so she created the character Radiant that she could play who had no fear.  But then, she lost control.  It was no longer Shallan in charge, Veil started coming out when Shallan didn't want her to.  And then Radiant started to gain her own personality and will.

Now, in Ch. 2 of RoW, the character is introduced as Veil, not Shallan.  That's got to be meaningful.  Always before, the introduction would have been something like "Shallan had been spending a lot of time as Veil this month".  Instead we get "Veil was growing upset."  Veil is in full control.  Veil decides when Shallan gets to come out now. 

It's lines like this that make me believe things are in some ways even more messed up than they were before:

"The shoe merchant finally approached her—a stout fellow with a beard striped with white. With that contrast, Shallan had an urge to draw him, so Veil stepped back and let Shallan emerge to take a Memory of him for her collection."

Shallan is not in control of herself.  She's stabilized in the sense that she is no longer generating additional personas, but she's worse in the sense that as of the end of OB, Shallan was still at least partially in control of which personality was in charge of her body.  

[Greywatch]

@Pathfinder I really like that source/information, as it really shows us that Veil and Radiant aren't inherently threatening to Shallan, and that it's not necessarily a problem for one of them to be more "dominant" than she is. It's essentially just a summary, but there's a lot there that I think is not obvious to us who don't already have education about real DID. I guess we'll have to see how stable the three of them really are, but it's really encouraging to see that stability might actually be the end goal.

As for why Veil and Radiant exist in the first place... I mean the Lightweaving has a little to do with how Shallan did it, but the reason they exist is Shallan's past trauma. No headway is going to be made with Shallan's alters without addressing the trauma as the root cause.

[Pathfinder]

17 hours ago, Greywatch said:

@Pathfinder I really like that source/information, as it really shows us that Veil and Radiant aren't inherently threatening to Shallan, and that it's not necessarily a problem for one of them to be more "dominant" than she is. It's essentially just a summary, but there's a lot there that I think is not obvious to us who don't already have education about real DID. I guess we'll have to see how stable the three of them really are, but it's really encouraging to see that stability might actually be the end goal.

As for why Veil and Radiant exist in the first place... I mean the Lightweaving has a little to do with how Shallan did it, but the reason they exist is Shallan's past trauma. No headway is going to be made with Shallan's alters without addressing the trauma as the root cause.

I caution about the use of the words "threatening" and "problem" as in this circumstance it is rather subjective and could convey an unintended concept.

Basically what I mean is, yes Veil and Radiant are not "threatening" insofar as their purpose to Shallan is to help keep her safe. But it could also be seen as "threatening" because of her reliance on them to handle tasks she herself is capable of. But yet again it could be seen as not "threatening" because they could be a stop gap till she gets to the point where she can handle the tasks herself. But once more, that is dependent on whether or not she ever endeavors to take on these tasks for herself. So technically Veil and Radiant themselves are not "threatening" but their presence could be "threatening" to further progress depending on how Shallan uses them. 

Further regarding whether or not it is a "problem" for a personality to be a primary. The primary is serving a purpose that is protecting the original. In that we can say it is not a problem, it is a benefit. However if the metric we measure something as a problem is whether or not it equates to the default state (in other words a happy mentally healthy individual), then other personalities would be a problem. 

Hmmm, I took a meandering way of saying Shallan's current status with her alters "balance" is not indicative of whether she has made progress or had a backslide. Shallan choosing to avoid remembering and using Veil to deal with it instead, is. Shallan is still shunting tasks off to her alters instead of learning to deal with them on her own. According to the information I posted, in order to re-intergrate the alters, Shallan needs to learn to gain more agency in the tasks, not less. I don't think we have seen enough yet to know if she has gained or lost agency. Just she still relies on her current personas to handle it. That also does not preclude additional personas from arising. She is just at a total of three at this time. 

Edited July 30, 2020 by Pathfinder

[+Bliev]

I think what this chapter shows is the Shallan has maintained in the year that has passed since Thaylan Field. She gained control over creating new alters. She is fully aware of her alters and what she uses them for. But this chapter definitely demonstrates that she has made no new progress on the next truth she must face to move forward. The Veil persona looks like she will serve a purpose here--forcing Shallan to face her fear and own this truth. My wild hypothesis is that the "power up" that comes with facing the next truth--the truth of her past and why she dissociates that seemed to start to be triggered by doing accounts in this chapter--will coincide with Veil "dying" (i.e., she'll sacrifice herself for Shallan to grow). Now, the WOB above suggests I'm wrong, that there won't necessarily be a magical "solution" to her DID, but I had thought it might work. Ultimately, I'm way less worried about Shallan after this chapter than I was during most of OB where it seemed that Veil and Radiant were taking over and that Shallan herself didn't have control over it and/or didn't care to. Thaylan Fields and her affirmative choice of Adolin seemed to be moments of clarity that helped her toward more self awareness. 

[Greywatch]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

I caution about the use of the words "threatening" and "problem" as in this circumstance it is rather subjective and could convey an unintended concept.

Yes, I use words, to try and convey certain ideas, without being specific as to every single way they could be misinterpreted.

[Pathfinder]

5 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

Yes, I use words, to try and convey certain ideas, without being specific as to every single way they could be misinterpreted.

Not sure what I really did to deserve that response. My intention was to clarify that my post was not saying the alters existence as they are now are an improvement, a deterioration, or a maintenance of quality of life. They just are. But to each their own. 

[Greywatch]

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

Not sure what I really did to deserve that response. My intention was to clarify that my post was not saying the alters existence as they are now are an improvement, a deterioration, or a maintenance of quality of life. They just are. But to each their own. 

I was annoyed, because to caution me and tell me that the words I'm using could mean I'm saying something that I don't mean to say, is a frustrating thing to hear after a post. I chose the words I meant to say.

[Pathfinder]

8 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

I was annoyed, because to caution me and tell me that the words I'm using could mean I'm saying something that I don't mean to say, is a frustrating thing to hear after a post. I chose the words I meant to say.

It is not my intent to derail this thread so perhaps we can continue this via PM, but that was not my intent. I was not warning you as in a threat. I was concerned that my post was being represented as being in favor of one side over the other. So I was trying to say at least my own intention was not to favor any side. You are of course free to believe as you wish and take whatever side you want. That post nor my subsequent posts were not meant to be antagonistic nor elicit upset. 

Edited July 30, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Greywatch]

@Pathfinder Sure, can do. My post was not claiming a side for you, only explaining how I interpreted the quote you linked, in light of some people saying that Shallan is as bad or worse than she was in Oathbringer.

[agrabes]

1 hour ago, Bliev said:

I think what this chapter shows is the Shallan has maintained in the year that has passed since Thaylan Field. She gained control over creating new alters. She is fully aware of her alters and what she uses them for. But this chapter definitely demonstrates that she has made no new progress on the next truth she must face to move forward. The Veil persona looks like she will serve a purpose here--forcing Shallan to face her fear and own this truth. My wild hypothesis is that the "power up" that comes with facing the next truth--the truth of her past and why she dissociates that seemed to start to be triggered by doing accounts in this chapter--will coincide with Veil "dying" (i.e., she'll sacrifice herself for Shallan to grow). Now, the WOB above suggests I'm wrong, that there won't necessarily be a magical "solution" to her DID, but I had thought it might work. Ultimately, I'm way less worried about Shallan after this chapter than I was during most of OB where it seemed that Veil and Radiant were taking over and that Shallan herself didn't have control over it and/or didn't care to. Thaylan Fields and her affirmative choice of Adolin seemed to be moments of clarity that helped her toward more self awareness. 

Since I drew the opposite conclusion from you, I'm interested - what is it about the section we've seen that makes you think Shallan is more in control here vs. the end of OB?  I guess just that you didn't feel Veil was in control, or that you don't think that's a problem?  I do like your theory of what might come next for Shallan.  I'm still not 100% convinced on what comes next with this situation, like you said in light of the WoB.  I think there is (possibly) something more going on here though.  In tWoK and WoR, there was no evidence that Shallan had DID.  But the trauma that caused the DID was long before those books.  So how could it be that she is only now creating these personas?  Wouldn't at least one alternate personality have existed ever since the original trauma?  Maybe that's just because Sanderson only chose to go full DID after he'd already written WoR.  Maybe that's just how the disorder works in real life.  Or maybe it's a sign that it was brought on by her Truths and her inability to handle them in a way that a normal human on Earth would not face, and maybe once she can actually accept them she will at least get significantly better with her condition.  That since the DID came on unnaturally, it might also leave unnaturally.  

My hope is that at least the Shallan we knew from tWoK and WoR will firmly assert herself as the one in the driver's seat by the end of the series.  Even if Veil and Radiant are still around, I could live with that.

I'll admit, it's part of my own identity that a strong sense of self control is very important to me.  That I am me and everything I do is because I consciously chose to do it.  So the idea that there could be this part of you that isn't you that has even a small portion of control over yourself is basically what a psychological horror movie looks like for me.  Maybe I'm more sensitive toward this than the average bear.