Does Brandon lack in characterization?

[Koloss17]

I was reading a reddit thread and stumbled spin a question on Brandon’s characterization skills. There was a general consensus that they were terrible, but there was very little evidence. I honestly don’t know what I think of his characterization, but I think there are probably multiple categories. 
 

does he portray genders well?

does he portray sexualities well?

does he portray mental issues well?

does he make overall three dimensional characters?

I honestly think he portrays mental issues well like with Kaladin, Shallan, and in legion. He is probably lacking in sexuality differences, but I don’t know if the ones he has are portrayed well. I can’t say if he correctly portrays gender well because I honestly can’t speak for all genders. And I honestly am questioning my stance of three dimensionalness of his characters.

[revelryintheart]

I feel like most of his characters are three dimensional and interesting, but a few of them can fall flat, such as Wax or Marasi. (although this might just be because I don't like Mistborn era 2). Also, some of the shorter stories that focus more on the world and it's place in the Cosmere (Sixth of the Dusk) lack the same character complexity as the Stormlight Archive of Mistborn. This is obviously because the stories are not as long as the novels, and have to be more plot-focused. I did think he did well in Shadows of Silence in the Forests of Hell. Opening with an outsiders perspective on Silence and then transitioning to her POV allowed for good characterization.

As for mental health, I personally think that is one thing he excels in. As someone who has suffered from depression, I can say that Kaladin's depression was very realistic. I remember reading Kaladin's flashbacks and getting super excited that what I had felt was finally put into words. As for other characters, I felt Chapman's trauma was well-written, although I did get really annoyed with her in Oathbringer. Then world is dying, everyone is struggling to keep things together and prepare for war, and Shallan's like "instead of helping, I'm going to go have an identity crisis!" But I suppose that's the thing with mental health; you can't control when bouts of depression or dysphoria happen.

LGBT is lacking in his books. The few LGBT characters we do have don't get viewpoints (excepting Shallan, who I believe was not originally supposed to be bi, readers just interpreted that and Brandon was like yeah sure). I would love to see a queer main character who's sexuality is more focused on then Shallan's. However, Brandon is LDS, as are a lot of his fans. Some of my friends have quit reading/ watching something because a LGBT character was included. If a main character's queerness was explicitly addressed, there will be controversy, and I don't know if Brandon wants to deal with that.

[Quantus]

Im not personally qualified to speak to all these, but I can offer these:

1 hour ago, Koloss17 said:

does he portray genders well?

Seems to?  Certainly did better than Robert Jordan with the Wheel of Time women in my opinion, and Jordan is considered one of the greats.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/29/#e2025

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/117/#e1612

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does he portray sexualities well?

From what I gather being outside the community, the biggest complaint is that so far it's all been very much in the background and/or off-stage, and he's said he's still hesitant because he'd rather not do it than do it badly.  So it's not that sexuality are portrayed well or badly so much as barely addressed thus far.  

https://wob.coppermind.net/adv_search/?query=gay&date_from=1998-04-10&date_to=2020-07-29&speaker=&ordering=rank

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does he portray mental issues well?

A lot of people with mental health issues seem to think so

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/355/#e10784

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/103/#e1002

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does he make overall three dimensional characters?

In my personal opinion, absolutely, some of the best around.  He's very good at building real people with real motivations instead of the walking story tropes that are so common. I tend to think that is fundamental talent/skill/method and how he handles individual groups will flow from that. 

Edited July 29, 2020 by Quantus

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, Koloss17 said:

does he make overall three dimensional characters?

When I saw this thread, my immediate reaction was unintelligible sputtering. I feel  that Brandon simply doesn't write flat characters. Like seriously, even the minor characters in the Stormlight archives interludes are characterized. Even the worst and most hate-able people in his books are given logical reasons for the things they do. I can't really speak for the other points though, although I've heard he's done mental health issues well. 

[thorongil]

This is a topic which, in my view, is very reliant on where you are coming from and what you are expecting. To me, Brandon's characters often start fairly traditional in terms of fantasy or sf tropes. They subsequently often develop in more unconventional directions. Some examples to illustrate what I mean:

Vin starts out as a pretty classical fantasy hero. Urchin, somewhat mysterious background, a nobody, from zero to hero, guided by the charismatic martyr-to-be. But over the course of the series she develops in ways which challenge traditional fantasy themes, as she questions and - actively as well as inadvertently - fights or at least wrestles with some of these themes.

Shallan shares similarities with Vin along the mentioned basic premises and also, as has been mentioned, develops in rather unconventional directions, especially where the fluctuating nature of her personality(ies) is concerned.

The same is true for Kaladin: Ex-soldier, fallen from grace, nascent supernatural powers, troubled history, problems with aristocracy - all of this is a rather generic mixture for an aspiring hero in fantasy. And again, his own mental problems are not so standard in my view as they seem to resonate very close with people who have dealt with similar issues.

I can definitely see why people would say that his characters can be flat, since many characters' basic premises (such as Sazed's gripe with religions) can be viewed as plot-driving devices. I think it is legitimate to criticize many of Brandon's characters on that basis, even though I do not share that criticisms since I feel most of his characters work and are relatable even if they are plot-driving devices.

In The Stormlight Archive Brandon does an excellent job of creating main characters - Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar - with rather substantial flaws and/or questionable or outright appalling histories and make them relatable. This is not trivial (and is, just as an aside, a main factor why ASOIAF has garnered so much acclaim - for all his faults and timing problems, it is fascinating how GRRM has managed to set up antagonists like Jaime Lannister or the Hound and provide them with believable and relatable redemption arcs). Just think of Dalinar, who is basically a mass murderer with highly questionable ethical views who unified a kingdom through a campaign of terror.

In terms of including real-world minorities, especially in terms of sexual orientation, Brandon definitely is more conservative than some other writers. But I'd rather have him work something into his world naturally and in a way that is comfortable for him than him including sensitive issues for the sake of it.

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

does he portray genders well?

does he portray sexualities well?

Not sure why those are important, I don't need to know their gender in order to tell what someone would do in a situation.

2 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

does he portray mental issues well?

Only relevant when needed, from my experience I can say that Kaladin is uncomfortably accurate.

2 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

does he make overall three dimensional characters?

Well technically no they're words so only two dimensions.

In all reality yes.

[Toaster Retribution]

First off, I dont think Brandon needs to write people with tons of different sexualities, faiths, illnesses, etc in order to be good at characterization. That is representation, which is a different beast. So if anyone on that reddit thread is using that as critcism of his characterization, they have got their terminology wrong. 

Second, I think Brandons characterization is one of the strong points in his books. I have not suffered from depression myself, but I have never seen a person with that experience criticise Kaladins character. On the other hand, they praise him. That is a sign of good characterization. Same with Jasnah. I am no atheist, but she has been praised for being a great representation of how atheists do think. 

Personally, I have recognized myself in Elend (just general nerd behavior), Dalinar (being ashamed over bad stuff you have done) and Hrathen (religious stuff). As long as Brandon keeps on creating characters which tons of readers identify with, I think that is a sign of great characterization. 

Edited July 29, 2020 by Toaster Retribution

[Weltall]

16 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

First off, I dont think Brandon needs to write people with tons of different sexualities, faiths, illnesses, etc in order to be good at characterization. That is representation, which is a different beast. So if anyone on that reddit thread is using that as critcism of his characterization, they have got their terminology wrong.

Yep. But I'll say that given his own background and beliefs he writes Jasnah (an atheist) really well and has taken pains to not only do justice to her worldview but construct things in a way that it can be every bit as valid as someone like Dalinar (reformist theist), Navani (orthodox theist) or Kaladin (agnostic) and it's up to the reader to decide which perspective they support, in the same way that questions like the existence of a soul, the Beyond and the God Beyond are always going to be the subject of in-universe debate and belief rather than something he's going to assert, even if he has a particular idea about the subjects.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/117/#e1695

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/332/#e9596

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31/#e1733

And by extension, I think he handles religion in general really well. You can tell he's fascinated by it and the possibilities for storytelling that different beliefs can offer.

.

Edited July 29, 2020 by Weltall

[Toaster Retribution]

Just now, Weltall said:

Yep. But I'll say that given his own background and beliefs he writes Jasnah (an atheist) really well and has taken pains to not only do justice to her worldview but construct things in a way that it can be every bit as valid as someone like Dalinar (reformist theist), Navani (orthodox theist) or Kaladin (agnostic) and it's up to the reader to decide which perspective they support.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/117/#e1695

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/332/#e9596

And by extension, I think he handles religion in general really well. You can tell he's fascinated by it and the possibilities for storytelling that different beliefs can offer.

.

I defeintely agree, and as a religious person, I´m quite happy with that. It is very easy for a lot of fantasy to just do the political aspects of religion, and not really focus on the faith-part of it (Cursed on Netflix is a great example of this). I think that could be because people in general grow more and more non-religious, but it really is neat to have an religious author writing about spirtituality (or the reasons for lack thereof), and not just pulling the Inquistion from the history books and placing it in a fantasy setting.

[Frustration]

@Toaster Retribution Oathbringer spoilers!!

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

, but I have never seen a person with that experience criticise Kaladins character. On the other hand, they praise him. 

 

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

praise

Oh, I don't have a Kaladin cult yet. Good idea!

[Snorkel]

The "mental issues" one, I think he started out bad and got better.  The autistic kid from Elantris - urgh.  Steris is a WAY more enjoyable ASD character, but she is really over the top.  I like her, but I could understand people who don't.

 

Gender - I've never had issues with the way he writes girls.  I'm reading Dresden Files, and I got to a Murphy POV short story that was just cringeworthy in a lot of ways, never had issues with that for Brandon.

 

Sexuality - the only character I can think of, it was kind of a "oh by the way, she's not into guys", which I thought was appropriate.  It was building knowledge of the character, like any other background info would.  I've been really put off by books that I felt were trying to shock me with the gayness of a gay character while the story has gone AWOL.

[Toaster Retribution]

@Frustration thanks, I fixed it!

[The Awakened Salad]

14 hours ago, Frustration said:

Not sure why those are important, I don't need to know their gender in order to tell what someone would do in a situation.

I believe people are talking about how Brandon’s characters, irrespective of gender, all feel fleshed out and three-dimensional. In the past (and still sometimes today, especially in fantasy), there have been instances of authors not developing their female characters as fully as their male counterparts.

A character’s gender and sexuality is important for some readers, especially to those from marginalised groups, as they are able to explore parts of their identity in a safe environment.

Edited July 30, 2020 by The Awakened Salad

[Singer]

If there are readers who are claiming his characters aren't whole people, with thoughts, beliefs, emotions, ambitions, and relationships that aren't relatable and coherent...to that I say, are we reading the same books? I really like Brandon's characters, that's why I keep coming back to his books. 

This is all very subjective, and I know I am going to love some characters that make other people cringe, but there is a difference between "I didn't like a thing" and "thing bad". I think there are A LOT of people who don't like Moash on the shard, but I don't think most of them feel that way because they think he is a poorly written character. 

I totally get if Lightsong or Shallan or Wayne just aren't funny to a reader, but do bad puns make the character bad? Or is it just a depiction of a trait they don't care for IRL? I wonder if some of these posters aren't confusing the concepts of "not my cup of tea" and "poorly done." It is hard to separate the two, but there is a pretty significant difference between "character I didn't like" and "characterization that was done poorly." In the latter category I imagine that the character would be mostly neither likeable nor unlikeable and maybe not even memorable most of the time. Or else it would be clear that the author only writes characters in one way (like having all women be super sexy and very attracted to the male protagonist but have no other goals or agency of their own.)

So far Sanderson doesn't fall under either of those pitfalls. Representation is a different issue altogether, and one I think Brandon is really progressing well in, we'll continue to see that evolve and grow in the future I have no doubt.