Jump to content

Lirin is a Stoneward


Karger

Recommended Posts

17 minutes ago, Honorless said:

The Diagram has a "higher purpose", they don't, according to Malata, as long as they get revenge & a chance to break things

Spark is cool with what allows her to break things but we don't really know anything about Malata.  I am sure smart!Mr T left clever instructions about insuring "his" radiant's loyalty.  I think ash spren are attracted to very disciplined people.  Yeah in the short run those types do less damage but when you want to burn down a city it is generally a committed and disciplined individual that gets the job done.  I also think it telling that despite instruction and knowledge from some very smart people Malata has not managed to pass the third oath.  Kaladin and Teft both managed that more or less on their own.

I don't think this is going anywhere anyway.  It might be smart to just move on.

Edited by Karger
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

Spark is cool with what allows her to break things but we don't really know anything about Malata.  I am sure smart!Mr T left clever instructions about insuring "his" radiant's loyalty.  I think ash spren are attracted to very disciplined people.  Yeah in the short run those types do less damage but when you want to burn down a city it is generally a committed and disciplined individual that gets the job done.  I also think it telling that despite instruction and knowledge from some very smart people Malata has not managed to pass the third oath.  Kaladin and Teft both managed that more or less on their own.

I don't think this is going anywhere anyway.  It might be smart to just move on.

Discipline? Malata? From what we've seen of her, and what she's told us about herself, including her being in The Diagram, she's particularly lacking in discipline

Do note that Shallan isn't very truthful either, despite being Bonded to a concept of  underlying mathematical truths, in fact, those lies are what fascinates him. Spren aren't just looking for paragons of virtue in their respective Orders, some of them seem to be looking for people who need help, who are facing a personal crisis relating to that Order's Ideals. They're attracted to things that fascinate them. They're also sapient beings, not mindless spren, so there's an element of choosing there too.

 

Inkspren don't like the idea of Bonding humans again too, but Ivory still went for it. Maybe there are individual Stoneward spren who'll go for it too *shrugs*

*sighs* But much like with Adolin, I don't want every character to be Radiant

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Inkspren don't like the idea of Bonding humans again too, but Ivory still went for it. Maybe there are individual Stoneward spren who'll go for it too *shrugs*

*sighs* But much like with Adolin, I don't want every character to be Radiant

I agree that a few none radiant perspectives are critical but I do think giving Lirin an arc that actually pushes Kaladin onward would be a really good way to fix his left over problems with Kaladin and naturally progress both of them as characters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Karger said:

I agree that a few none radiant perspectives are critical but I do think giving Lirin an arc that actually pushes Kaladin onward would be a really good way to fix his left over problems with Kaladin and naturally progress both of them as characters.

That seems cheap. I want them to take the long, arduous journey of *actually talking to each other and listening*

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Honorless said:

That seems cheap. I want them to take the long, arduous journey of *actually talking to each other and listening*

This would be motivation along the line of actually talking to each other and listening.  Or rather starting to pay attention to what each other have already said.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Karger said:

This would be motivation along the line of actually talking to each other and listening.  Or rather starting to pay attention to what each other have already said.

I mean, yeah, Radiancy isn't a cure-all, as we see with Kal & Teft, it's their Ideals that give them motivation & drive, it's still a bit of a shortcut if inter character conflict resolution happens this way, imo

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Honorless said:

I mean, yeah, Radiancy isn't a cure-all, as we see with Kal & Teft, it's their Ideals that give them motivation & drive, it's still a bit of a shortcut if inter character conflict resolution happens this way, imo

Let me break my thoughts down.  What I am hoping is that Lirin will take some time to think about what Kaladin has chosen to do along with the results of that.  By doing so he will attract a peekspren(or whatever they are called).  He will then advance along the oaths.  When Kaladin is at his lowest point Lirin will come back with the things he has learned and reinvigorate Kaladin thus prompting him to get back in the saddle and swear ideal four.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, Karger said:

Let me break my thoughts down.  What I am hoping is that Lirin will take some time to think about what Kaladin has chosen to do along with the results of that.  By doing so he will attract a peekspren(or whatever they are called).  He will then advance along the oaths.  When Kaladin is at his lowest point Lirin will come back with the things he has learned and reinvigorate Kaladin thus prompting him to get back in the saddle and swear ideal four.

Peakspren, possibly

You have a whole headcanon

P.S. Wouldn't Lirin fit better as an Edgedancer? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Honorless said:

P.S. Wouldn't Lirin fit better as an Edgedancer? 

Yes and no. He wants to heal lifes no matter which life it is, and that seems indeed very edgedancerish. But on the other hand, he refuses to emphasize with his patients and remains detached, so that he won't be overwhelmed and can stay focused and efficient, and that's isn't very edgedancerish.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Dracnor said:

Yes and no. He wants to heal lifes no matter which life it is, and that seems indeed very edgedancerish. But on the other hand, he refuses to emphasize with his patients and remains detached, so that he won't be overwhelmed and can stay focused and efficient, and that's isn't very edgedancerish.

That's a nice interpretation of the Edgedancer Oaths, but Lirin has contested that claim as not really being a matter of caring or not caring

5f2255f417464_Edgedancer(1).thumb.png.68f9a1b35b9c346983c1165cb27fd4b6.png5f2255f86ef9a_Edgedancer(2).thumb.png.f8b232e60b6d300bf4261bd1ea6bfdb4.png

these fit his thought processes quite well

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Honorless said:

You have a whole headcanon

Yeah it just slid together. 

13 minutes ago, Honorless said:

P.S. Wouldn't Lirin fit better as an Edgedancer? 

Profession wise yes.  Temperament wise not really.  Edgedancer actually comes out really low when I input his personality into the radiant quiz.  He is a surgeon but honestly which describes Lirin better.

Quote

Edgedancer oaths are themed around remembering the ordinary people of the world—those who aren’t powerful generals or Radiants. Too often, the actions of the powerful have terrible effects on the people with no voice, and the Edgedancers consider it their solemn duty to remember that the people are the ones they truly serve.

The Edgedancers are known as being caring and graceful. Among the Knights Radiant, they see it as their duty to care for the people and are often less interested in war than they are about trying to improve the daily lives of the common folk.

vs

Quote

They tend to be known for their can-do attitudes and for taking on enormous projects (sometimes more than they can handle). However, most agree that the primary attribute of the Stonewards is their dependability. Though sometimes gregarious, they are never flighty. If a Stoneward is your friend, they will be there for you, and that is a core tenet of their Order—to be there when they are needed. Another key attribute is their ability to take a difficult situation with few resources and make something better of it. Though not known as inventors or creators, they are good at improvising solutions to problems in the moment.

It is not a clear cut case.

Just now, GriffinMaze said:

Lirin is definitely NOT a stonewarden.

Could you explain why?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For all we've seen, it's possible that Lirin would attract an honorspren and become a Windrunner just like Kaladin. He just wouldn't interpret or express the "protecting" in a martial way. At all.

It's all set up by the way that Lopen swore the Second Ideal - whatever he did, and I'll assume it wasn't zero, out on the battlefield with Kal's training (training he didn't participate in down in the chasms like Skar, Drehy, and Moash, mind you, due to having one arm), his metier for "protecting of the unprotected" was psychological.

I will (heal/care for) those who cannot (heal/care for) themselves.

I will (heal/care for) even those I hate (e.g., Roshone), so long as it is right.

Not saying it will happen, but just noting that thinking "a Stoneward can't possibly be a pacifist!" is not quite right.

Edited by robardin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Karger said:

Let me break my thoughts down.  What I am hoping is that Lirin will take some time to think about what Kaladin has chosen to do along with the results of that.  By doing so he will attract a peekspren(or whatever they are called).  He will then advance along the oaths.  When Kaladin is at his lowest point Lirin will come back with the things he has learned and reinvigorate Kaladin thus prompting him to get back in the saddle and swear ideal four.

I'm in a very similar mindset. I am really hoping that seeing Kaladin with the rest of Bridge 4, seeing his dedication to his men, seeing his absolute fervor to save and to protect combined with his desire to kill as few people as possible will open Lirin's eyes to the fact that Kaladin is exactly the man Lirin raised him to be--someone who tries to save lives. I'm torn on whether or not Lirin would actually bond a spren but I do believe that the peakspren would be the most likely. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've read this thread with a lot of interest! Thank you for bringing it up...my thoughts: We know that spren coalesce, so with Lirin being transported to a place with other Radiants around, it would make sense to me to see a spren of some sort seek him out. It would be very interesting if said spren was somewhat anti-Honorspren, and/or anti-human, and generally attracted to someone who conflicted with Kal and Syl. Maybe Lirin's pacificity and bitterness at the war that hurts everyone would ironically lead to a stoneward spren to be attracted to him. I don't know if their spren order makes collective decisions like some orders seem to (Cryptics) or if they are more individualistic, but I think the contrast would be fascinating. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it would be fascinating to get an actual pacifist radiant.

It should be possible. Nothing in the Radiant oaths requires them to go around stabbing people with swords. But they're so good at swording people that all the radiants that we've seen HAVE, from time to time, resorted to violence (As well they should, they're in a Desolation!)

Lirin might be the person who, in the middle of a Desolation, would be able to play the part of a pacifist Radiant who refuses to hurt anyone, even Singers.

Would be interesting for sure. (Aside from the danger of making everyone and their brother into budding Radiants.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/29/2020 at 9:52 PM, Karger said:

Spark is cool with what allows her to break things but we don't really know anything about Malata.  I am sure smart!Mr T left clever instructions about insuring "his" radiant's loyalty.  I think ash spren are attracted to very disciplined people.  Yeah in the short run those types do less damage but when you want to burn down a city it is generally a committed and disciplined individual that gets the job done.

... like Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden?

... Man that's a scary thought...

 

As far as Malata and Dustbringers are concerned: We don't actually know if she's sworn the third ideal. Isn't it confirmed that Radiants get their blades at different Oaths depending on their Order? For example, didn't Shalan have access to Pattern in blade form before swearing her three oaths at the end of WoR? And, Brandon confirmed she's currently at Oath four. Doesn't that mean she summoned Blade!Pattern after only Life Before Death etc.?

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

On 7/29/2020 at 10:16 PM, Karger said:

I agree that a few none radiant perspectives are critical but I do think giving Lirin an arc that actually pushes Kaladin onward would be a really good way to fix his left over problems with Kaladin and naturally progress both of them as characters.

Agreed! Wholeheartedly agreed!

 

But, in all seriousness: I could see Lirin in a number of orders. The pacifist Windrunner. Edgedancers... maybe. Truthwatchers. Elsecallers... again maybe. Stonewards is a very real possibility like you pointed out OP. But, and here's the twist I'm gonna throw in just for fun: What if Lirin becomes the next Bondsmith? It has been pointed out that Navani would make a good Willshaper. What if that tone she heard in the Never Nev - I'm sorry, Shadesmar - was actually a Willshaper spren calling out to her? "I will unite" could work as an interesting lesson for Lirin, tying in with that teamwork theme you mentioned. To be honest, I don't actually expect it to happen. It's just a fun thought. But, it would spread the power out a little from just "Team Kolin!"

Seriously though, I really like the Lirin is a Stoneward idea. And, we need more of those.

 

NOTE: Sorry for all the Dresden Files references, I just finished my reread of Peace Talks earlier... erm... yesterday, I guess.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I feel like it may not necessarily be about a spren choosing Lirin, it could be about Lirin being drawn to an Order himself, such as the Edgedancers. During the first couple of books it was more exclusive because of the effects of the recreance and spren being mad at humans in general, Surgebinding not being a thing (mostly) for centuries and Skybreakers killing all potential radiants. It mostly required the spren to be the proactive ones in finding and choosing potential candidates. But as seen from how easily Kaladin was able to make people his squire in Oathbringer, humans can also decide to join specific orders which they are more drawn towards, the more difficult part I imagine would be to actually progress through the ideals.

Considering Lirin is going to be stuck on a ship with a bunch of Edgedancers, Lirin would want to look after his people and the Edgedancers would also want to do that so I imagine they will have some interactions. Even if you think it's just his profession that is more in line with Edgedancers, you have to remember he is not in his profession just because, he very much wants to be a surgeon and a healer, I don't really remember him ever regretting being a surgeon. Lirin might decide that that's where he could be the most useful. It would be funny if he became Lift's square but I don't know if that's likely.

Also he also matches several things from Edgedancer description from the quiz.

Quote

Too often, the actions of the powerful have terrible effects on the people with no voice, and the Edgedancers consider it their solemn duty to remember that the people are the ones they truly serve.

Lirin has several shown that he thinks the wars and conflicts are mostly the problems of those in power and the common people just suffer due to their actions.

Quote

Among the Knights Radiant, they see it as their duty to care for the people and are often less interested in war than they are about trying to improve the daily lives of the common folk. Often, a mid-sized town would have an Edgedancer or two on permanent assignment, where they’d use Regrowth to provide healing and would work for the common good of the town.

Lirin is doing this already, even after being given a chance to go to safety and live in peace and luxury considering his son is a Radiant, he chose to stay behind in conflict zone and put himself and his family in danger because that's what he believed in.

Quote

During wartime, they often act as the mobile medics, eschewing actual combat to heal or pull out the wounded or those trapped in terrible situations

I don't think I have to make much argument here, if for example he was forced to join an army this is probably what he would do, also in a dangerous situation he went to check up on the Singer Kaladin killed.

Quote

One should never assume the Edgedancers are in any way base just because they often ignore high society; they are renowned as some of the most refined and graceful of Radiants.

I don't know about the society part but he really does not care for those in charge in high and mighty positions, as we see from him in general and also his attitude towards Dalinar in chapter 2.

 

I won't deny Stonewards as a possibilty but I don't think he would voluntarily lean towards that and I feel like spren going out of their way to choose people is more of main character thing (Kaladin, Shallan, Jasnah, Lift, etc). He doesn't fit Edgedancer ideals perfectly but that's not really a requirement (Lift, Venli), it will be part of his journey and maybe he'll learn to care more and not be so distant.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 30.07.2020 at 5:52 AM, Karger said:

  I also think it telling that despite instruction and knowledge from some very smart people Malata has not managed to pass the third oath.

Didn't Malata unlock an Oathgate in Jah Kaved? How would she do that without a blade? Do people think she has an Honorblade or am I missing something?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

Didn't Malata unlock an Oathgate in Jah Kaved? How would she do that without a blade? Do people think she has an Honorblade or am I missing something?

She is also mentioned to be operating the oathgate at several times in urithiru, so she almost certainly has a shardblade. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

Didn't Malata unlock an Oathgate in Jah Kaved? How would she do that without a blade? Do people think she has an Honorblade or am I missing something?

She does have a Shardblade.  There’s some debate about which orders get Blades with which oath.  Some feel as though it’s only after the 3rd oath for everyone (in which case Shallan said several oaths as a child/adolescent and then broke them), or some can get their Blade much earlier in the process.

Ultimately, we know shockingly little given the 3 1/2 books worth of information we have so far.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

Didn't Malata unlock an Oathgate in Jah Kaved? How would she do that without a blade? Do people think she has an Honorblade or am I missing something?

She is at oath three just not past it.  Sorry if I was unclear.  My point was she likely was chosen because she fit criteria exactly designed for Dustbringers and probably has had longer then Kaladin to work on this but has not made more progress.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting Idea: Assuming Lirin becomes a Stoneward, could he employ Cohesion and Tension as a sort of pseudo-healing technique? You know, reshape broken bones or severed veins so that they are set or connected properly again. Maybe, he could do the same with flesh as well? Then, use tension to make sure they stay that way? I'm... not sure it would really work. But... shrug. Or, just reshape them, and then once the starlight ran out their consistency would return to normal but in their new - repaired - form? That way he could remain a healer, and keep to his code, but also be a Stoneward.

Edited by BasementDwellingRadiant
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...