Lirin and his Possible Arc

[Nymeros]

7 minutes ago, the_archduke said:

All of the humans on Roshar have been raised with the stories of legendary desolations where voidbringers rise up to destroy mankind.  Wouldn't it be natural to assume the current wars were a desolation?  What else would people assume with the events of the last year or two?  There was a storm that blew the wrong way, and it created an army of monsters... probably not a desolation, lets just go on like nothing is different?  Lirin is acting that way, and it is infuriating to me.  "Don't fight back, it will only make the desolation worse" is an attitude I can't see how any Rosharan could hold.

The Parsh are not monsters. They're just something other than human.

What should be public knowledge is that Vorin teachings were false as humans are the true void who began this war with the Singers. Reality is clearly something different to the old stories.

[+Child of Hodor]

19 hours ago, Watchcry said:

I don't like Lirin anymore. What the hell did he expect Kaladin to do? Beg the Singers to leave? He gave them the option to leave peaceably.  They chose to attack him. He fights back and Lirin gets all pissy. 

I think Lirin will die and that will snap Kaladin completely to where Dalinar makes him the surgeon mentioned in Syls interlude chapter. 

I've never liked Lirin. Welcome to the "has the correct opinion on Lirin" club! (I'm kidding, there's no official club yet)

I hope Lirin doesn't die for Kaladin's sake. Kaladin's already not sleeping and hasn't resolved his issues that caused him to freeze up in book 3. 

[Harbour]

Its interesting choice for Brandon to make: to use Lirin's death as a tool push Kaladin or to use Lirin's alive as a tool to push Kaladin.

I can see both way, but obviously Lirin dying will work more effective on drama and will have more shocking effect in short run.

Lirin living and coming with Kaladin to certain terms will work well in long run if done correctly.

I still lean towards death. First i kinda doubt we wont have some tragic B-character death or deaths in RoW. Lirin is one of the most obvious candidates. I also think there are big chances on Lirin's fate and Fourth Ideal concept being connected. 

All in all his death will be shocking for Kaladin. I can hardly see what else out of all we have seen may force Dalinar to move Kaladin to the job of the surgeon. Certainly not Hessina and Oroden death, that would be way too cruel for SA tone.

[GudThymes]

1 hour ago, the_archduke said:

All of the humans on Roshar have been raised with the stories of legendary desolations where voidbringers rise up to destroy mankind.  Wouldn't it be natural to assume the current wars were a desolation?  What else would people assume with the events of the last year or two?  There was a storm that blew the wrong way, and it created an army of monsters... probably not a desolation, lets just go on like nothing is different?  Lirin is acting that way, and it is infuriating to me.  "Don't fight back, it will only make the desolation worse" is an attitude I can't see how any Rosharan could hold.

I hear you on this, and I don't think I would act how Lirin would. However, I think it would be a little willfully obtuse to say that Lirin isn't fighting back. He's hiding and aiding a general that is seemingly crucial to the Herdazian war effort (the only other one we've heard of so far). I believe that Lirin thinks he knows his place, as a surgeon, and is doing his part to help the people. He isn't willing to pick up arms himself and fight, although he won't stop others from doing so (except for Kal).

 

[Storyspren]

Lirin’s primary purpose plot wise is to die and somehow in so doing advance Kaladin’s depression plot. Who has living fathers in this series? Dalinar and Adolin are also in trouble, but it’s Adolin I’m worried about there. 

[Kuram]

I think making Lirin die is the 'easy' way out and a bit of a cliche.  I would rather have them both work at their issues in a more satisfying manner too.  Maybe that is the reason Kaladin considers going back to surgery after part 1; trying to get the approval of his father.

[lol_king]

I don't want Lirin to die, I think he is an interesting character, it would be great to see how reacts if he himself becomes a Radiant and how he comes to terms with it. We already have Tien, so many slave crews and other bridge crew members, old squad in Amaram's army, betrayal of Moash, death of Elhokar, Syl almost died. At this point I don't see what death of Lirin would bring to the table, Kaladin's thing has always been trying to protect people and not being able to, and I don't think he's especially trying to protect Lirin or that it is any sort of a conflict for him, it's more about their relationship. It is nice having a main character with both parents actually alive and named (Seriously, try to think of which cosmere main characters have both their parents alive). Side characters being treated as fodder for the development of main characters is not a trope I like, it gives me a feeling that the lives everyone except the main characters is meaningless and it breaks my immersion. I'm not at that point yet but we already have so many main characters all being part of just one family, if characters outside of the core team that could get spotlight keep dying then that will really start to bug me. It all depends on execution but it would really bring down the story for me personally if Lirin dies just for the sake of 4th ideal.

I don't think Lirin's attitude is the best, especially towards Kaladin and to me it seems like he is being stubborn and purposefully ignoring certain realities. But reading the comments I feel like readers are a lot quicker to forgive faults of the main characters and look past their horrible deeds as compared to side characters, especially ones who are at odds with the main characters. For main characters it's just a character flaw or trauma or something to atone for the sake of character development. For side characters it's "just because you didn't have the best life doesn't give you a reason to be an cremhole" kind of deal. Anyways, I feel like Lirin has been beaten down by the world and given up on a lot except few things dearest to him that he holds on to tightly and that is why he is having trouble letting go of Kaladin, he still hasn't given up on Kaladin as a surgeon. It'll be interesting to see where it goes.

[rjl]

On 30/07/2020 at 4:51 AM, Kuram said:

I think making Lirin die is the 'easy' way out and a bit of a cliche.  I would rather have them both work at their issues in a more satisfying manner too.  Maybe that is the reason Kaladin considers going back to surgery after part 1; trying to get the approval of his father.

Until we got chapters 2 and 3 I thought Lirin was marked for death, I'm not so sure anymore and really hoping he doesn't die - seeing Kaladin continue to interact with him over a long period of time could be far more interesting - I'd love to see Lirin eventually accept Kaladin as a "protector".

[BSharpLydian]

On 7/28/2020 at 9:26 PM, dgreene196 said:

Presuming Lirin makes it back to Urithiru, he'll have to find a way to be valuable, as a veteran surgeon in a world where magic can heal all wounds.

As an aside, what will Kaladin be doing as a surgeon in a world with many Edgedancers?  And, presumably, a handful of Truthwatchers hanging around.

I could see Lirin becoming an Edgedancer, given his willingness to help others. It would be interesting to see if his healing expertise would affect how he uses Regrowth.

[+Child of Hodor]

33 minutes ago, BSharpLydian said:

I could see Lirin becoming an Edgedancer, given his willingness to help others. It would be interesting to see if his healing expertise would affect how he uses Regrowth.

Lirin could become an Edgedancer, his decision to stay in Hearthstone even though he had the money to leave fits with not forgetting the common people. 
He treats everyone he can. 
He’s nothing like Lift personality wise, but he’s lived in a way that fits with the order.

[book.spren]

On 8/2/2020 at 8:55 AM, rjl said:

Until we got chapters 2 and 3 I thought Lirin was marked for death, I'm not so sure anymore and really hoping he doesn't die - seeing Kaladin continue to interact with him over a long period of time could be far more interesting - I'd love to see Lirin eventually accept Kaladin as a "protector".

Agreed! I honestly feel for both Lirin and Kaladin and their relationship. It seems to me that Lirin has a very strong set of principles and values--namely, life should be preserved not taken--and he sees soldiers and war as in direct opposition to those values. I cannot imagine the pain that he feels seeing his son involved in something that he has always viewed as loathsome. I don't expect Lirin to just abandon his values and beliefs just because it's his son that is a soldier. I want Lirin to see that Kaladin is fighting with everything he has to protect the people that he can. I want Lirin to see that Kaladin has formed a friendship with Rlain and that Kaladin doesn't view all Singers as the enemy. I think Lirin's acceptance of Kaladin--slow as it may be--is going to be crucial to Kaladin's recovery. 

[rjl]

Part of me would love to see Lirin become a radiant, particularly an Edgedancer though at the same time it would also be good for him to stay "ordinary"; I don't know what I'd prefer - I'm more interested in the development of his relationship with Kaladin than the development (or lack thereof) of his powers.

[Lidolas]

I love that Lirin sees the Parsh the same way as the lighteyes.  

Quote

“I obey the person who holds the sword to my neck, General,” Lirin said. “Same as I always have.”

I hope he gets to meet Rlain and that they work together to repair the racial divide.(Rlain is who I'm hoping becomes a Bondsmith)

[Ixthos]

What I am hoping is that Lirin will see that, despite believing one shouldn't harm one in order to heal another, he has been deeply wounding Kaladin. I suspect that at some point Kaladin, again close to breaking down, is going to get into an argument with his dad again about how Kaladin is a murderer, and that is going to be what pushes Kaladin as far as he has ever gone, with Lirin finally realising that, despite never killing a man, he almost killed his own son - his condescension and certainty blinded him to his son's pain. Lirin has a very sympathetic viewpoint, and I can understand his rejection of violence, but does he realise that his attitudes towards men of violence could cause real harm to his own son?

 

I don't want Lirin to decide that killing can sometimes be okay, though him being put in a situation where he realises not fighting - maybe not killing, but definitely refusing to attack - someone will allow many other innocents to suffer or die. But I think finding out that, despite his own beliefs, he actually HAS BEEN KILLING KALADIN, stabbing his own son in the heart with a spear of rejection and disgust, when all Kaladin wants to do is help people, might be more powerful. Lirin, the man who rejects violence, has been wounding his own son, and never realised it. It's okay to reject what Kaladin is doing, but Kaladin is already conflicted about that. What will Lirin, the healer, do, when he finds this out?

[Subvisual Haze]

I think he'll witness Kal have a mental shock the next time he loses a patient in surgery and finally grasp that his son is in a lot of emotional pain, not cut out to be a surgeon like he wants, and also that his perceived dissatisfaction regarding his son is not helping.

[JuristSkybreaker]

Long time lurker, first time poster.  

I think I figured out Lirin's role and how Kal will get past his 4th Ideal problem.  

Lirin's big thing is that he wants to protect Kaladin from what he perceives is Kaladin making the 'wrong' decision for himself.  
Kaladin's big thing is that he wants to protect every person he encounters from what he perceives is their making the 'wrong' decision for themselves.  

Lirin and Kaladin will interact, maybe work together for a bit.  Lirin will basically give him the "do as I say, its for your own good" speech and Kaladin will continue his objection that he's more useful as a warrior and that he doesn't have everything it takes to be a surgeon because he can't bring himself to triage directly. 

They'll argue a bit and it will come out:  I"M TRYING TO PROTECT YOU YOU IDIOT!  YOU"RE GOING TO GET KILLED IN WAR JUST LIKE YOUR BROTHER DID!  

And bingo:  Kal will understand that just as the path of the surgeon isn't really his because he cannot be clinical with his desire to protect and he needs to be free to choose the spear and make his own choice for good or ill as a free person, he needs to likewise understand that people will put themselves in danger JUST LIKE HE DOES in order to try to protect others or defend an ideal or destroy an evil etc.  That if HE is free to do so, even compelled to do so by some internal drive, then OTHERS must be as well, including his enemies. And just as he finds it terribly unjust and off-putting, even hurtful, that his father does not understand and accept his choice he will realize that he is causing problems by doing the same thing to his soldiers and enemies.  He abrogates their value as persons and turns them into objects unless he respects their right to choose their path.  Turning people into objects is not protecting them, its the opposite.   

So while he should strive to protect others, even his enemies in some respects, he must accept that their choices are their own and there will be times when protecting those he can protect means he has to destroy those he wishes he could protect but who have made other choices.  


 

Edited September 25, 2020 by JuristSkybreaker

[Subvisual Haze]

I did find this thought by Navani regarding Lirin enlightening

Quote

However, as she stepped up beside Dalinar, she caught Lirin’s eyes—and the familial connection became more obvious. That same quiet intensity, that same faintly judgmental gaze that seemed to know too much about you. In that moment she saw two men with the same soul, for all their physical differences.

One system of personality grouping that I've found interesting lately is the Enneagram system.  This system groups personalities into 9 types based primarily on the person's motivations and deepest fears.  It's a useful system especially when analyzing fictional characters who will frequently be created by authors with particular driving motivations in mind.  I mention this because I find both Kaladin and Lirin to be excellent examples of the Type One personality - the Reformer https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/type-1

Quote

Ones are conscientious and ethical, with a strong sense of right and wrong. They are teachers, crusaders, and advocates for change: always striving to improve things, but afraid of making a mistake. Well-organized, orderly, and fastidious, they try to maintain high standards, but can slip into being critical and perfectionistic. They typically have problems with resentment and impatience. At their Best: wise, discerning, realistic, and noble. Can be morally heroic.

• Basic Fear: Of being corrupt/evil, defective

• Basic Desire: To be good, to have integrity, to be balanced

Key Motivations: Want to be right, to strive higher and improve everything, to be consistent with their ideals, to justify themselves, to be beyond criticism so as not to be condemned by anyone.

Multiple characters have thought that Kaladin is always judging them with his sharp gaze and moralizing language about right and wrong.  We know from his POVs though that him condemning others in his mind is actually quite rare.  Frequently he is just ranting against the general suffering of the world, or often working through his own contradictory thoughts of what him being a good person actually entails.  I think Lirin is much the same.  What Kaladin perceives as Lirin's constant displeasure with him is really Lirin similarly ranting against the injustices of the world (war exists, it is hell).

[Halyo_Alex]

1 hour ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I did find this thought by Navani regarding Lirin enlightening

One system of personality grouping that I've found interesting lately is the Enneagram system.  This system groups personalities into 9 types based primarily on the person's motivations and deepest fears.  It's a useful system especially when analyzing fictional characters who will frequently be created by authors with particular driving motivations in mind.  I mention this because I find both Kaladin and Lirin to be excellent examples of the Type One personality - the Reformer https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/type-1

Multiple characters have thought that Kaladin is always judging them with his sharp gaze and moralizing language about right and wrong.  We know from his POVs though that him condemning others in his mind is actually quite rare.  Frequently he is just ranting against the general suffering of the world, or often working through his own contradictory thoughts of what him being a good person actually entails.  I think Lirin is much the same.  What Kaladin perceives as Lirin's constant displeasure with him is really Lirin similarly ranting against the injustices of the world (war exists, it is hell).

Woah. That's really interesting!

I skimmed through the different types and uh, wow, Shallan is totally a type 4... But I digress. Type 1 definitely suits Kaladin, and I agree that Lirin is probably the same.

[Schneeente]

Considering that he would have killed / not saved Roshone if Kaladin had not been present, I say if push comes to shove, he would kill to protect his family. 

But on the other hand, maybe that experience has made him even more "radical" in his pacifism, who knows. If you've read Wheel of Time, remember the Tuatha'an... Many of those have watched while their families god massacred, so..  everything is possible. Especially considering how unwelcoming he acts towards his eldest son, maybe his "familary bond" is not as highly evolved as you'd expect from someone with his pacifistic-mindset. 

 

/edit: When it comes to his plot-relevance I could easily imagine that he is the person who is able to drag Kaladin out of his (annoying) depression. One reason he is depressed might be the lacking approval of his father that he admired when he was young (maybe he still does?). 

Edited September 26, 2020 by Schneeente

[Kingsdaughter613]

On 9/26/2020 at 8:42 AM, Schneeente said:

Considering that he would have killed / not saved Roshone if Kaladin had not been present, I say if push comes to shove, he would kill to protect his family. 

But on the other hand, maybe that experience has made him even more "radical" in his pacifism, who knows. If you've read Wheel of Time, remember the Tuatha'an... Many of those have watched while their families god massacred, so..  everything is possible. Especially considering how unwelcoming he acts towards his eldest son, maybe his "familary bond" is not as highly evolved as you'd expect from someone with his pacifistic-mindset. 

 

/edit: When it comes to his plot-relevance I could easily imagine that he is the person who is able to drag Kaladin out of his (annoying) depression. One reason he is depressed might be the lacking approval of his father that he admired when he was young (maybe he still does?). 

Kaladin is depressed because of genetics. His father isn’t helping, but the depression is biological.

[ftl]

There's more to Kal's depression than just biology, though. Yes, he's depressed, but him freezing in battle isn't just that, it's that combined with whatever fourth-oath-block he has about being unable to save everyone.

[Kingsdaughter613]

8 hours ago, ftl said:

There's more to Kal's depression than just biology, though. Yes, he's depressed, but him freezing in battle isn't just that, it's that combined with whatever fourth-oath-block he has about being unable to save everyone.

No, that’s PTSD. Which is probably also somewhat predicated on genetics...

[Chana]

10 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Kaladin is depressed because of genetics. His father isn’t helping, but the depression is biological.

Not to get too technical but it's a bit reductive to say that his depression is due to genetics. Brandon confirmed that his depression is not magical but that doesn't make it that simple. True, considering he was depressed from such an early age he had probably genetic susceptibility but depression is practically always multifactorial and I think growing up with Lirin as father definitely contributed to that. After all, he has a very strong idea of who Kaladin should be and has been drilling that into his head from early age. I might not remember WoK that well but I don't think there was ever much discussion whenever Kaladin showed any signs he doesn't want to be a surgeon.

While I don't have much issue with Lirin's pacifism on its own, it works for him but it's just how judgemental he is towards others. His world seems very black and white, and that's almost never the case in real world. But the fact he just forces Kaladin to fit into those boxes is just very hurtful to his son. I find it very ironic that a surgeon so focused with helping everyone overlooks his own son mental health so much. Like this might be a bit of a stretch but I could see Kaladin's obsession with protecting coming from the fact that he didn't fit his fathers framework so if he were to be outsideof it it should at least be for a noble reason such as protecting others and making him basically spiral into this if I'm not actively protecting someone at any moment I'm worthless kind of attitude. 

Hopefully they'll get some time together in Uruthiru and he'll see how broken Kaladin is and realise that he needs to stop fueling his depression.

[Schneeente]

6 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Kaladin is depressed because of genetics. His father isn’t helping, but the depression is biological.

So what you are saying is that your genes determine your entire life? Neither you nor your environment has an impact?

Non-sarcastic: Just because he might be genetically predisposed towards depression doesn't mean his father doesn't have an effect / is one of the reasons / cannot help.  

[Greywatch]

There is no need to be sarcastic, especially if it requires misinterpreting another member's point to make it sound sillier.