Lirin and his Possible Arc

[Suda21]

I was reading through the new chapters, especially with the Lirin POV. I have noticed a lot of foreshadowing of Lirin having to come face to face with his own code. Can one kill to save lives?

"There are two kinds of people in this world, son. Those who save lives and those who take lives ... . You can't protect by killing." -Way of Kings

I think Lirin will be put in a situation where he will have to kill someone to save a life. Most likely against the Fused or a human adversary. I would find this to be super interesting because, as of right now, Lirin does not have radiant powers, but he still has sworn the oath of doing no harm. Brandon loves to explore the idea of people’s faith. May it be in religion or believing in something or a concept, seeing a Lirin POV chapter much like in Oathbring with chapter 84 with Kaladin’s internal perspective. How either Lirin will either live by his sworn oaths that he chastizes Kaladin about constantly or have to break them to save possibly Hesina or Oroden. 

It has been something I have been thinking about since reading the new chapters today. I wonder what will happen because I would be interested to see what the outcome might be if this occurs. What do you all think about this?
 

Edited July 29, 2020 by Suda21

[Vambram]

I also want to see just how long a pacifist surgeon like Lirin will  be able to keep faithful to his personal moral code in a time of global war. I think it would be fascinating and entertaining if Lirin is able to remain a pacifist, despite the horrors of war that he is experiencing and will continue to experience. 

[Watchcry]

I don't like Lirin anymore. What the hell did he expect Kaladin to do? Beg the Singers to leave? He gave them the option to leave peaceably.  They chose to attack him. He fights back and Lirin gets all pissy. 

I think Lirin will die and that will snap Kaladin completely to where Dalinar makes him the surgeon mentioned in Syls interlude chapter. 

[*{kara}*]

Haha I've also been thinking about Lirin a lot lately! You have an interesting idea... I think it would take a lot to make him break his code. The man is stubborn. However, I really want it to happen, because I think it is time for him to have an inner moral conflict about killing, protecting, and saving after what he has made Kaladin go through.

[Suda21]

30 minutes ago, Watchcry said:

I don't like Lirin anymore. What the hell did he expect Kaladin to do? Beg the Singers to leave? He gave them the option to leave peaceably.  They chose to attack him. He fights back and Lirin gets all pissy. 

I think Lirin will die and that will snap Kaladin completely to where Dalinar makes him the surgeon mentioned in Syls interlude chapter. 

I known people like Lirin, who hold certain people to impossible standards. Due to there own personal values or beliefs in certain things. Usually, they are deeply flawed people who don't follow their own advice. A good example of this is the first time Lirin sees the airship. It is discussed how it is a perfect device for war because you can move so many troops. However, the first thing Lirin says about it is how it would make a perfect mobile hospital instead of seeing it as a flying marvel. He understands the world differently compared to how Kaladin sees the world or anyone else is the Roshar.  

 

21 minutes ago, KaratheEdgedancer said:

Haha I've also been thinking about Lirin a lot lately! You have an interesting idea... I think it would take a lot to make him break his code. The man is stubborn. However, I really want it to happen, because I think it is time for him to have an inner moral conflict about killing, protecting, and saving after what he has made Kaladin go through.

Seeing how we now have POV's from him. I would love to see what moral conflicts he is going to have, especially with his entire life being literally moved away. 

[Karger]

3 minutes ago, Suda21 said:

Usually, they are deeply flawed people who don't follow their own advice

I would not call Lirin hypocritical.  His sense of idealism is very strong though.

[dgreene196]

Presuming Lirin makes it back to Urithiru, he'll have to find a way to be valuable, as a veteran surgeon in a world where magic can heal all wounds.

As an aside, what will Kaladin be doing as a surgeon in a world with many Edgedancers?  And, presumably, a handful of Truthwatchers hanging around.

[Suda21]

10 minutes ago, Karger said:

I would not call Lirin hypocritical.  His sense of idealism is very strong though.

He has thought about it. Especially considering letting Roshone die to solve their problems, but his better nature gets the best of him. Although I don't believe Lirin is hypocritical. Personally, I think that he holds his son into impossible standards. That I feel like if he really was in a life or death situation to protect his family again is where he would find himself in a huge moral conflict. This time we would most likely see it internalized through his POV and not from Kaladin.

Edited July 29, 2020 by Suda21

[MasterSounis]

7 minutes ago, dgreene196 said:

Presuming Lirin makes it back to Urithiru, he'll have to find a way to be valuable, as a veteran surgeon in a world where magic can heal all wounds.

As an aside, what will Kaladin be doing as a surgeon in a world with many Edgedancers?  And, presumably, a handful of Truthwatchers hanging around.

I'd be interested in seeing how limited the stormlight economy is at the moment. Dalinar can create more when needed, but one man can't cover everyone, I think. With fabrials and radiant numbers increasing, and limited/no food production in Urithuru possibly drawing more stormlight for soulcasting, is there enough stormlight to fill the needs of everyone? It may not be possible for radiant abilities to cover everyone yet, and that leaves room for conventional skills like medicine.

[Nymeros]

6 minutes ago, Suda21 said:

I think that he holds his son into impossible standards. 

I dont feel like "not killing people" is an impossible standard to live towards.

[Karger]

3 minutes ago, Suda21 said:

Usually, they are deeply flawed people who don't follow their own advice

I would not call Lirin hypocritical.  His sense of idealism is very strong though.

[Jon]

2 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

I dont feel like "not killing people" is an impossible standard to live towards.

Under normal circumstances. In a war where one side is intent on genocide, it seems less reasonable to expect no one to kill.

[Suda21]

5 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

I dont feel like "not killing people" is an impossible standard to live towards.

I think it is an impossibility during wartime where the very war is for your very survival, and you are in a small select group of people that can prevent all-out genocide. It might be an impossible standard, given the current situation. 

[GudThymes]

1 minute ago, Suda21 said:

I think it is an impossibility during wartime where the very war is for your very survival, and you are in a small select group of people that can prevent all-out genocide. It might be an impossible standard, given the current situation. 

But is that really known to most of the characters? We know this is Odiums intent/goal. But is it the Fused's? Is it the listeners? Is it the newly restored parshmen's?

I find the term genocide to be carelessly thrown around in this context. For the last year the listeners have not been slaughtering people. As far as most Alethi are likely concerned this is just a new army that was suddenly much more powerful than them.

I understand Lirin's opinion, he is a man used to having people with more power get their way. But I don't think he sees this new reality as a threat to his very existence, just a new foot at his neck.

[Karger]

15 minutes ago, MasterSounis said:

I'd be interested in seeing how limited the stormlight economy is at the moment. Dalinar can create more when needed, but one man can't cover everyone, I think. With fabrials and radiant numbers increasing, and limited/no food production in Urithuru possibly drawing more stormlight for soulcasting, is there enough stormlight to fill the needs of everyone? It may not be possible for radiant abilities to cover everyone yet, and that leaves room for conventional skills like medicine.

Welcome to the shard.  Storms are frequent enough that the real problem is storage capacity.

2 minutes ago, GudThymes said:

But is it the Fused's?

The different fused Venli has talked to indicate that it is a long running argument between kill them all and enslave them all.  Odium however made it clear during OB that his is the only thing that matters.

3 minutes ago, GudThymes said:

I understand Lirin's opinion, he is a man used to having people with more power get their way. But I don't think he sees this new reality as a threat to his very existence, just a new foot at his neck.

True.

[Nymeros]

46 minutes ago, Jon said:

Under normal circumstances. In a war where one side is intent on genocide, it seems less reasonable to expect no one to kill.

The Singers aren't bent on genocide as far as Lirin knows. They're just replacing the lighteyes within the hierarchy and Lirin's relationship with Abiajan is essentially the same as he had with Roshone and he is still a respected individual.

43 minutes ago, Suda21 said:

I think it is an impossibility during wartime where the very war is for your very survival, and you are in a small select group of people that can prevent all-out genocide. It might be an impossible standard, given the current situation. 

The war doesn't appear to be genocidal.

2 hours ago, Suda21 said:

I think Lirin will be put in a situation where he will have to kill someone to save a life.
 

In that situation, Lirin still would not take life. It's just not in his nature. He would be emotionally devastated if he couldnt save someone he cared for as anyone else would be but he wouldn't compromise his code.

Edited July 29, 2020 by Nymeros

[Karger]

Well I just generated a theory thanks to this thread.  I think his arc generally will be about becoming a team player.  Not compromising his ideals but instead learning to work with them and others at the same time.

 

[Jon]

11 hours ago, Nymeros said:

The Singers aren't bent on genocide as far as Lirin knows. They're just replacing the lighteyes within the hierarchy and Lirin's relationship with Abiajan is essentially the same as he had with Roshone and he is still a respected individual.

Maybe, but a year has passed since the last book, and Kaladin seems to have been in contact with his parents at least a few times. I would think he would have tried to explain the stakes to them, based on what Dalinar has seen. Now, I could see it being entirely in character for Lirin to refuse to accept that as true, but its still pretty stubborn of him to refuse to consider the possibility that people are fighting for a good reason. 

[Pathfinder]

Just a thought I had, could people's upset at Lirin not so much be about his personal views, but how he chooses to enact them on Kaladin? I believe there is a way that Lirin could hold to his beliefs, express disappointment in losing his son to a path he feels ends in heartbreak, sorrow and death, but at the same time still be supportive and a shelter to Kaladin. That by Lirin not doing that, and instead continually force his views onto Kaladin, and treat the situation as an "us versus" them, (us being surgeons, them being soldiers) results in alienating Kaladin and makes him feel like an enemy to his own father when he already has far too much to deal with. I think that might be the real reason deep down people have reacted with such distaste towards Lirin's views. 

 

TLDR:

Possibly the reason people take issue with Lirin is not so much his beliefs, but how he chooses to enforce those beliefs upon Kaladin

Edited July 29, 2020 by Pathfinder

[+Q10fanatic]

9 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Possibly the reason people take issue with Lirin is not so much his beliefs, but how he chooses to enforce those beliefs upon Kaladin

I know that a big part of my problem with Lirin is how he has let this poison his relationship with Kaladin. 

I also want to push back on the idea that Lirin's views on the current war are acceptable because he doesn't really know what is going on or what the real risk is to humanity. This is a storming DESOLATION! The voidbringers of ancient legend have returned. Their entire culture revolves around worshipping the Heralds that SAVED HUMANITY from the voidbringers in dozens or hundreds of wars that were so brutal humanity was nearly wiped out! Every single Vorin should be able to put this together. Lirin should not require verbal confirmation of the danger everyone is in. He may demand it because he doesn't want to know the truth, but that doesn't excuse his ignorance.

[Jon]

16 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Possibly the reason people take issue with Lirin is not so much his beliefs, but how he chooses to enforce those beliefs upon Kaladin

I think this is probably a big part of it. 

I think some of it is also that his views are taken to a point of being kind of irrational. He doesn't take the stance that violence should be a last resort, he takes the stance that it never can solve anything. His repeated insistence that you can't save anyone by killing someone else flies in the face of reason, and he refuses to accept that. 

It would perhaps be easier to accept his position if he took some kind of moral stance that it was wrong to harm someone even in the name of saving someone, but that isn't what he argues with Kaladin. He cannot come to terms with the fact that people can be protected through violence.

Edited July 29, 2020 by Jon

[Suda21]

12 hours ago, GudThymes said:

But is that really known to most of the characters? We know this is Odiums intent/goal. But is it the Fused's? Is it the listeners? Is it the newly restored parshmen's?

I find the term genocide to be carelessly thrown around in this context. For the last year the listeners have not been slaughtering people. As far as most Alethi are likely concerned this is just a new army that was suddenly much more powerful than them.

I understand Lirin's opinion, he is a man used to having people with more power get their way. But I don't think he sees this new reality as a threat to his very existence, just a new foot at his neck.

Upon further consideration and research, I think you are right. I might have irresponsibly used the word genocide. I was basing it off of my understanding of how other Desolations have been perceived and how the prologue for Way of Kings gives that feeling that it has always been a pattern of sheer survival. 

[Nymeros]

6 hours ago, Jon said:

its still pretty stubborn of him to refuse to consider the possibility that people are fighting for a good reason. 

He doesn't refuse that. He just doesn't want Kaladin to participate in that way which is reasonable:

Quote

 

“And you honestly think we shouldn’t fight the Voidbringers, Father?”

Lirin hesitated. “No,” he whispered. “I know that war is inevitable. I just didn’t want you to have to be a part of it. I’ve seen what it does to men. War flays their souls, and those are wounds I can’t heal.” He secured the splint, then turned to Kaladin. “We’re surgeons. Let others rend and break; we must not harm others.”

 

 

5 hours ago, Jon said:

He cannot come to terms with the fact that people can be protected through violence.

I don't think he needs to accept such a concept. Regardless of who is saved, someone else is absolutely being hurt if there is violence and killing involved. You may be willing to accept that cost in suffering but Lirin isn't and he isnt wrong.

6 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Possibly the reason people take issue with Lirin is not so much his beliefs, but how he chooses to enforce those beliefs upon Kaladin

Definitely. People seem to be clearly having an emotional response to Lirin based on their connection to Kaladin.

5 hours ago, Q10fanatic said:

He may demand it because he doesn't want to know the truth, but that doesn't excuse his ignorance.

Really? Lighteyes have done more harm to Lirin than the Singers ever had. Vorin teachings are false. Why does he need to be suspicious of them without evidence?

Edited July 29, 2020 by Nymeros

[Jon]

18 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

He doesn't refuse that. He just doesn't want Kaladin to participate in that way which is reasonable.

Ah, I think somehow I'd missed the bit that you quoted. I was remembering his quotes from the first book.

[the_archduke]

5 hours ago, Suda21 said:

Upon further consideration and research, I think you are right. I might have irresponsibly used the word genocide. I was basing it off of my understanding of how other Desolations have been perceived and how the prologue for Way of Kings gives that feeling that it has always been a pattern of sheer survival. 

All of the humans on Roshar have been raised with the stories of legendary desolations where voidbringers rise up to destroy mankind.  Wouldn't it be natural to assume the current wars were a desolation?  What else would people assume with the events of the last year or two?  There was a storm that blew the wrong way, and it created an army of monsters... probably not a desolation, lets just go on like nothing is different?  Lirin is acting that way, and it is infuriating to me.  "Don't fight back, it will only make the desolation worse" is an attitude I can't see how any Rosharan could hold.