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What's that Fused doing?


Lightspine

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1 minute ago, Child of Hodor said:

It's not Transportation Regrowth Gravitation Adhesion Tension ...

It is kind or like regrowth.  Also what is he using to make said body when he gets there?  Also wouldn't Sly notice soulcasting?  She is still partially in that realm.

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1 minute ago, Child of Hodor said:

Breaking a body down is Regrowth ... which does he have Transportation or Regrowth or both?

I am pointing out a similarity.  I personally think it is transportation.  We saw the regrowth guys during OB.  It does seem to have more in the way of regrowth then transformation.

Edited by Karger
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Meta reasons why I'm sure it's Transportation:

  • It's the Willshaper book, Brandon's gonna want to show off the Willshaper powerset, and this is a good opportunity to show it in action before we get into the nuts and bolts of how it works. 
  • Having Transformation (or really, any the other Surges) be able to more or less perfectly replicate Teleportation is a needless amount of overlap between the surges; it just makes them less unique if you start allowing for stuff like that.
  • Kaladin thinks 'oh, this must be the Transportation Fused' when he sees the ability in action. Brandon's just intentionally confusing the reader if that's not the case, which would not be wise of him, since keeping ten different magic system straight in the average reader's mind is not an easy task. 

Additionally, perfectly replicating an entire Singer body is far more complicated than anything else we've ever seen Soulcasting do. Doing so multiple times in quick succession strains credulity. And if he's already doing all the work of reconstructing an entire functioning nervous system three times in as many seconds, saying that also reconstructing whatever weapons or clothes he happens to him with him at the time is beyond him would be a very arbitrary limitation. And if did have control over Transformation that's that perfect, there were a bunch of things he could've done to Kaladin that would've been more effective than trying to grapple him. Really he'd be limited by nothing but his own imagination. Like, transmute the air around him to stone so he's perfectly incased in rock, just off the top of my head. 

Edited by Gilphon
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55 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

Meta reasons why I'm sure it's Transportation:

  • It's the Willshaper book, Brandon's gonna want to show off the Willshaper powerset, and this is a good opportunity to show it in action before we get into the nuts and bolts of how it works. 
  • Having Transformation (or really, any the other Surges) be able to more or less perfectly replicate Teleportation is a needless amount of overlap between the surges; it just makes them less unique if you start allowing for stuff like that.
  • Kaladin thinks 'oh, this must be the Transportation Fused' when he sees the ability in action. Brandon's just intentionally confusing the reader if that's not the case, which would not be wise of him, since keeping ten different magic system straight in the average reader's mind is not an easy task. 

These are great points. I'm pretty much convinced. 

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9 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

Breaking a body down is Regrowth ... which does he have Transportation or Regrowth or both?

That is the problem. It would have to be both. Hence: a Regal - Smokeform?
Secondly why break down the body? It is additional work.

9 hours ago, Gilphon said:
  • Having Transformation (or really, any the other Surges) be able to more or less perfectly replicate Teleportation is a needless amount of overlap between the surges; it just makes them less unique if you start allowing for stuff like that.

It does not. You cannot go into Shadesmar with that power.

Yet you can heal yourself with a transport and you can be an unassailable observer.

9 hours ago, Gilphon said:
  • Kaladin thinks 'oh, this must be the Transportation Fused' when he sees the ability in action. Brandon's just intentionally confusing the reader if that's not the case, which would not be wise of him, since keeping ten different magic system straight in the average reader's mind is not an easy task. 

Or the other way round. Kaladin is making an assumption that will turn out to be false.

 

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The way Fused fight was described really reminded me of how Imperius in this cinematic fought, only instead of white glowing orb its red one. It definitely helped me visualize his manner of fight better.

Also on 0:35 the way he teleported would be pretty fitting for Elsecallers to teleport imo.
 

 

Edited by Harbour
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For my it is Transportation mixed with normal Spren Abilities. I think 1st post Theory is very plausible, but with one exeption:

I dont think Fused is moving into CR and back. I think he is all the time in PR, at least partialy. What happens with his body is very similar to what happens with living Shardblade - spren is moving around in his form (like Fused in his Spren/Cognitive Shadow form) and form phisycal body when needet. Only difference will be that in Fused case natural form is phisycal one, but in spren case natural is cognitive one.

And Fused probably need mind and Gemheart to "fuse with" first, this is why need Parshmens body.

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I do think this Fused is using Transportation to get around.  It kind of reminds me of sci-fi teleportation.  You measure an object (thereby destroying it) and rebuild the object in the targeted location.  In Realmatic Theory, I guess this could be technically easier because you don’t have to focus on trillions of cells (or vastly more particles) - just the cognitive idea of the subject.  And, since the Fused has a cognitive ideal that includes those spurs, they’re always available to be detached as weapons.

That’s what popped into my mind reading the fight.

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Quote

Questioner

Did Jasnah's body die, and she made a new one?

Brandon Sanderson

No, she actually transferred her body to the other side... I actually even wrote the scene where it happened, but I didn't end put it any books... That's what Elsecallers do, is they teleport. That's one of their things.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

I was just reading through some WoBs and found this. I figured it may revive some arguments here. If Elsecallers "teleport" I would assume that the Surge equivalent for the Fused is Transportation. We know that the Fused aren't as efficient as using Stormlight as the Radiants, so couldn't the crumbling husk just be remnants of that inefficiency? 

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On 7/29/2020 at 1:58 PM, Bzhydack said:

I dont think Fused is moving into CR and back. I think he is all the time in PR, at least partialy. What happens with his body is very similar to what happens with living Shardblade - spren is moving around in his form (like Fused in his Spren/Cognitive Shadow form) and form phisycal body when needet. Only difference will be that in Fused case natural form is phisycal one, but in spren case natural is cognitive one.

I was heavily considering this description when I crafted the original post, but I wasn't sure how it could lead to the corpse left behind each time. I'm wondering if you have any insight on this. How Radiant spren --> shardblades works (or at least my interpretation, this could be more up to debate than I realize) is that the investure that makes up the spren is of Honor and it can make a "phase change" from their spren form to solid Tanavastium metal. This process is completely reversible (much like phase changes of matter in real life).

For the Fused, this should mean that their physical body is built by some "phase change" converting the investure that makes up their soul from the red-light-spren-thing form into flesh and blood. I don't have a problem with this part since investure, energy, and all matter are the same in the cosmere. However, this should allow for the reverse "phase change" of investure from physical body to spren-ish form without leaving anything behind, right?

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3 minutes ago, Lightspine said:

However, this should allow for the reverse "phase change" of investure from physical body to spren-ish form without leaving anything behind, right?

Maybe this have something to  do with fact that Fused, being Cognitive Shadow, is also permanently bonded with body? He clearly needet Investiture to turn himself into spren-form, and to manifest new body, maybe is more efficient to live body and let it decay? We know too little about it...

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19 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Maybe this have something to  do with fact that Fused, being Cognitive Shadow, is also permanently bonded with body? He clearly needet Investiture to turn himself into spren-form, and to manifest new body, maybe is more efficient to live body and let it decay? We know too little about it...

Ah, perhaps they need the investure in order to make up the loss of leaving behind a body, instead of perfectly converting that body's investure to spren form? Building off what you said, maybe being a Cognitive Shadow stapled to a body is what impedes the full "phase change" of investure.

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  • 2 weeks later...

The thing about the Fused is that I dont think we are seeing onfe Fuse type per Surge, I think we are seeing one fused-type Order, and the equivalence is Tactical not metaphysical.  Sometimes the similarity is pretty obvious and direct, as with the Windrunner, Edgedancer, or Lightweaver equivalents that mostly match their signature surge.  Others, like the ones that can more freely manipulate their carapace for tools and weapons, are harder to immediately place.  And then there are the Thundercasts, and Im not even sure they are part of the Nine Order equivalents since they dont appear to posses Singer bodies like the rest.  I suspect several will be more functionally convergent effects than literal copies of the radiant surges.  

In the case of this Elsecaller-ish teleporter, I came to the same conclusion as @Child of Hodor, their surge is at least partially a Soulcasting effect that is creating a new body for them each time.  However, I dont think they are capable of whipping up an original host-body whole, rather I think they are able to soul-cast an inert meat-copy (something that a shardblade would cut) and then re-assign their spiritual attachment to it.  This would explain the way it crumbles, if as @Gilphon pointed out, if it is realmically the same as a broken set of shardplate competing for the animating Identity and Spiritual connect, and also why they would (presumably) still need a host Singer.  So while it sounds like a normal Elsecaller moves their body whole, a Fused soulcasts a new one at the destination and then reassigns it's host's spiritual connections to the newly fabricated meat (far closer to classic Star Trek teleportation).  Thematically this screams Elsecaller over Willshaper because it's more like a weirdly limited combination (Resonance?) between Soulcasting and Elsecalling that only approximates the Elsecaller's signature advantage.  

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On 01/08/2020 at 0:35 AM, Bzhydack said:

Maybe this have something to  do with fact that Fused, being Cognitive Shadow, is also permanently bonded with body? He clearly needet Investiture to turn himself into spren-form,

That we do not know. Turning himself immaterial may be free for all we know.

On 01/08/2020 at 0:35 AM, Bzhydack said:

and to manifest new body, maybe is more efficient to live body and let it decay? We know too little about it...

Is this thing his actual body? Or is there a currently comatose Singer body in an armored carriage or vault waiting for his mind to return while he does this form of movement/teleportation in bodies specifically generated for that purpose?

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@QuantusThis is an angle on it I had not thought of. They get two surges combined in one or aspects of two surges working together in one.  Maybe that's why they are called the Fused :P

I would think they'd all get one because they are accessing through one shard, while the KR are accessing through two by saying oaths (Honor) and saying those oaths in a progression over time (Cultivation). However, the Honorblades come straight from Honor's "soul" and give two surges each to whoever bonds them.

Plus in the RoW interlude from the newsletter (hiding in case people haven't read it):

Spoiler

Syl says a Bondsmith bound the other Surges. Whatever that means. There is a lot we don't know. 

There are some WoBs about how radiant orders powers can work a bit different from the orders they share a surge with. 

 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/161/#e6916 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3625

We know KR have a resonance unique to each order. The two surges resonating with each other to give a unique passive trait (more squires, photographic memory etc.)

I guess my point is there are themes along the lines of two surges working together, just not to this extreme yet. 

@Gilphon Swayed me away from soulcasting being involved both for meta reasons he listed and that it is so hard to recreate a functioning body.

 https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/91146-whats-that-fused-doing/?do=findComment&comment=1028358

I like the two-in-one idea a lot, but I think I'm still in the camp of it's a way of using Transportation we hadn't seen before. 

 

Edited by Child of Hodor
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10 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

That we do not know. Turning himself immaterial may be free for all we know.

We can see Fused can be in material form much longer than in cognitive form. He walks into town, he stays, commands, speaks. Also during battle he stays material very long, but as spren he seems to be restricted by time. So he needs Voidlight to stay immaterial.

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1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

We can see Fused can be in material form much longer than in cognitive form.

Well, he stays in material form longer. Whether this is strictly a consequence of ability or something else is an open question. Furthermore, reincorporating may not be free.

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

He walks into town, he stays, commands, speaks. Also during battle he stays material very long, but as spren he seems to be restricted by time. So he needs Voidlight to stay immaterial.

Well, a ghost can't kill you. And we do not know in which form he stayed while Kaladin lost trace of him.

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I think @Gilphonmade some really good points on why this has to be using Transportation somehow.

The red-violet light that chases Kaladin reminded me of one of Dalinar's visions, the one where he is running around in the purelake and spots a spren with red eyes in the water. The Radiant there says something about the spren needing a carrier or an escort. Then a bigger spren shows up and turns into a thunderclast.  

When Dalinar first sees the smaller spren he says it looks like a red spot in the water then it swims away.

So the bigger spren is one of the fused right? They are what animate stone to make a thunderclast?

The connection the Radiant mentions got me thinking what if the fused who use surges can make similar connections with spren.

Maybe the new fused Kaladin fought is using Transportation to leave the physical realm and then his little spren is his anchor. So the spren chases Kaladin around and lets the fused know when to come back. Maybe the spren is carrying the gem heart while he moves? And that's why it can only move so fast. Otherwise I think it would be able to fly around as fast as Syl.

I think this would be cool way for Transportation to work but I haven't thought of any good reasons for why the fused has to regrow a body. When Jasnah used Transportation it was very different.

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36 minutes ago, Foggy said:

When Dalinar first sees the smaller spren he says it looks like a red spot in the water then it swims away.

 

From what the Radiant was saying in that vision, I think the little spren was something corrupted by Sja-anat? But there could definitely be a connection. Your idea seems solid to me.

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Given that transportation is the surge that specifically allows "realmatic transition" per the coppermind, its hard to say specifically what that means. However, also given that the Fused in either physical or spren form never seems to leave the physical realm, in that he can always be perceived by Kal during the fight, its kind of hard to argue that he is using the surge of transportation. IMO it is much more likely that it is the surge of regrowth, compounded with normal spren movement, and perhaps the Fused with bulky carapace in OB were utilizing transformation or one of the Stoneward surges, considering we haven't seen them fully either. That's the most likely option if this fused isn't capable of bringing clothes/weapons with him. I can't say much abt the other arguments about why husks are left behind, but the conflict of identity theory makes the most sense to me, and the mechanics are similar to shardplate regrowth.

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14 hours ago, Kramerfarve said:

Given that transportation is the surge that specifically allows "realmatic transition" per the coppermind, its hard to say specifically what that means.

We have seen Jasnah use it. And it looked like an oath gate, not like what the Fused did. I fully agree, this is not Transportation.

One heretical thought, are we sure that was a Fused, not a Regal?

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30 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

We have seen Jasnah use it. And it looked like an oath gate, not like what the Fused did. I fully agree, this is not Transportation.

Transportation may have more uses that just Realmatic Transition, like how the Surge of Growth can grow and regrow. 

31 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

One heretical thought, are we sure that was a Fused, not a Regal?

The Fused had surge-mimicking powers, as opposed to something small like lighting. This Fused also seems to have a great amount of combat experience, which can only come from being immortal/reincarnating. 

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45 minutes ago, Innovation said:

The Fused had surge-mimicking powers, as opposed to something small like lighting.

Envpyform has Connection like Dalinar. Other Forms of Power are described as "like Surges of Men". And he does not mimic a known Surge. That is circular reasoning.

45 minutes ago, Innovation said:

This Fused also seems to have a great amount of combat experience, which can only come from being immortal/reincarnating. 

After one year of Desolation and half a decade on the Shattered Plains?

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1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

One heretical thought, are we sure that was a Fused, not a Regal?

 

7 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

After one year of Desolation and half a decade on the Shattered Plains?

He wasnt fighting in any of that places. He was spoted first time after year of war, an still was very expirienced. Also, how Parshendi behave i relation to this one is evidence.

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