RoW Chapter 2 & 3 Discussion

[Innovation]

I would guess it is just inference. They know a Windrunner was flying toward hearthstone, and they know that some of the people in hearthstone are related to a Windrunner. Just take an educated guess and you have Kaladin. 

[nonix]

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

 

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Questioner

Dalinar Ascends, right? Like, right then, there.

Brandon Sanderson

I have RAFO'd that. Whether he is Ascending or not is a RAFO.

Questioner

Okay, because I know he kind of mentions from that, I don't know how to say his name but the older guy who has the Diagram--

Brandon Sanderson

Taravangian, yeah. Whether that deserves to be a capital "A" or not is a matter of argument. It can be disputed.

Questioner

I guess my main question would just be Dalinar's now able to pull Stormlight and give it to people now.

Brandon Sanderson

He definitely can. That is a Bondsmith power, so.

Questioner

That is a Bondsmith power, okay.

Brandon Sanderson

That is specifically a Bondsmith power.

Questioner

Because my roommate was saying well, the Stormfather was surprised he could do that or was the Stormfather surprised that he was able to bridge--

Brandon Sanderson

He was surprised by what was happening to Dalinar as a whole.

Questioner

Oh okay, that's what I thought because I was like, because I felt like the Stormlight, that power would be a Bondsmith power.

Brandon Sanderson

Let's say that the Stormfather and Odium were seeing something in Dalinar that, perhaps, the average person watching even who is knowledgeable about Surges would not completely understand... But he will be able to use that power and Bondsmiths in the past have used that same power.

Footnote: Brandon clarified that he might have been unintentionally misleading in his answers to this question during his Stormlight 4 Update 1.
Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

 

Fairly good guess.  I don't think I can come up with a good counter.  Maybe Kaladin was flying really low to try and avoid sky patrols?

 

Could just be that they saw Windrunners and Kaladin is well known to Odium at this point. We don't know how many operations the other Windrunners have been going on. But its definitely not far fetched to say a spy was responsible. It's hard to see a situation where Odium didn't know about Fourth Bridge in the first place though. It's giant, why hasn't it been attacked before? Perhaps more reasoning why we find Moash there now, Odium is letting it happen.

Edited July 28, 2020 by nonix

[nebulae27]

42 minutes ago, Kuram said:

I didn't think very many were born afterwards?  I thought Syl was one of the youngest, and she still lived before the recreance.

I think it would be a pretty easy case to make to the honorspren though.  Like "hey look, we already know the truth and we didn't abandon our oaths.  In fact we have new people swearing every day."

Iirc, Syl is actually fairly ancient for an honorspren. She was super young right before the recreance, and fortunately for her her Knight died, leaving her unattached whenever the recreance happened and killed her brethren. She then went into a coma and was found thousands of years later by the Stormfather. So she's mentally young because of her coma, but actually very old. 

[nbozb]

4 minutes ago, Harbour said:

I would like to see Adolin's reaction on Kaladin and Lyn dating and then breaking up.

 

That's rough, buddy.

[+Oltux72]

5 minutes ago, Karger said:

I don't see how that is possible.  The gemheart is so occupied by a regular fused that they can't even keep the original cognitive aspect.

The Fused soul is enough to reestablish its old Form. Why can't that be a Form of Power if that was the original Form the Fused bore when he became a CS?

5 minutes ago, Karger said:

I think it much more likely this is just the void equivalent of transportation.

All other Fused use the exact Surge as Surgebinders use it.

5 minutes ago, Karger said:

Fairly good guess.  I don't think I can come up with a good counter.  Maybe Kaladin was flying really low to try and avoid sky patrols?

Why did the watchman survive under those circumstances?

[Kuram]

2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

All other Fused use the exact Surge as Surgebinders use it.

Actually in OB Kaladin comments that they fly differently than he does.  IIRC they were more graceful but could not adjust directions as quickly as he could.

It is more reasonable to assume that there will be differences between the surges than the opposite, but they're probably going to be pretty similar.

[Honorless]

22 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

One more thing, how clever is Sylphrena really? And Kaladin for that matter?

He was flying and observed while the fog lifted. Yet somebody is supposed to describe him to the point that he has a shash brand on his forehead? You want to tell me that some bored watchman saw Kaladin so clearly that he could describe him to the point of recognising a glyph on his forehead? And frankly how many Singers can read glyphs? And he reported it so fast that they could make a drawing and got a Fused who cannot fly to the town? Nope, I am sorry that sighting was arranged to cover their spy.

Maybe they just knew of the brands from previous encounters

[Cheat Commando]

2 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Maybe they just knew of the brands from previous encounters

Maybe Moash provided a description of them that was then communicated to all the Fused.

[Honorless]

2 minutes ago, Cheat Commando said:

Maybe Moash provided a description of them that was then communicated to all the Fused.

... or that

dammit Moash! 

[Karger]

11 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

All other Fused use the exact Surge as Surgebinders use it.

Not true actually.  The fused that uses progression to shape his arms?  Moash notices that the flying fused choose to carry him rather then lash him and they are much slower then Kaladin.  Renarin implies that they see the future not the present. 

12 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Why did the watchman survive under those circumstances?

A missing watchmen is far more likely to arouse suspicion then one who thought he saw something but was not sure.

[+Oltux72]

10 minutes ago, Kuram said:

Actually in OB Kaladin comments that they fly differently than he does.  IIRC they were more graceful but could not adjust directions as quickly as he could.

They are running on a different fuel.

10 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Maybe they just knew of the brands from previous encounters

The timing won't fit. How long before the encounter did Kaladin fly in? A few hours at most. Yet the Fused arrived with a squad of soldiers. Even if the watchman had a spanreed, the special Fused must have been ready and close by. Had he not walked, where are the flying Fused who had transported him? They were warned in advance.

[+Child of Hodor]

8 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The Fused soul is enough to reestablish its old Form. Why can't that be a Form of Power if that was the original Form the Fused bore when he became a CS?

All other Fused use the exact Surge as Surgebinders use it.

Why did the watchman survive under those circumstances?

Their original bodies died before they were made Fused / CS. "THE SOULS OF THE DEAD FROM LONG AGO" Stormfather in OB CH. 38.

That's why they need new bodies. Unlike the Heralds who were made into CS while they were still alive in their original bodies. 

Also, the Fused could not use any surges at first. "AND EVEN BEFORE THE FUSED LEARNED TO COMMAND SURGES,  MEN COULD NOT FIGHT THEM." Ch. 38 OB

According to the Fused Venli speaks to in OB I-6 they can't share the space.

"Unlike the witless Voidspren you bonded - which reside in your gemheart - my soul cannot share its dwelling."

[Honorless]

2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The timing won't fit. How long before the encounter did Kaladin fly in? A few hours at most. Yet the Fused arrived with a squad of soldiers. Even if the watchman had a spanreed, the special Fused must have been ready and close by. Had he not walked, where are the flying Fused who had transported him? They were warned in advance.

They were spotted

I was just referring to how they knew of the brands on his forehead

[Nymeros]

The Fused are still pathetically weak and I'm still at a loss for how the Heralds ever died to these chumps.

 

New guy is pretty cool though I wonder why he didnt just leave his knife in Kaladins neck instead of removing it. Seems silly to me. Does anyone have an explanation beyond PIS?

2 hours ago, Scriptorian said:

The fact that the teleporting fused creates an entirely new body is interesting to me. Is it perhaps being soulcast from the air, or some related mechanism?

I wonder if its related to how the Heralds get bodies when they return to Roshar.

[+Oltux72]

2 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

That's why they need new bodies. Unlike the Heralds who were made into CS while they were still alive in their original bodies.

But the Fused are not Dullform, are they? So what happens if a Regal died and was made a Fused?

2 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

 Also, the Fused could not use any surges at first. "AND EVEN BEFORE THE FUSED LEARNED TO COMMAND SURGES,  MEN COULD NOT FIGHT THEM." Ch. 38 OB

The more reason his body cannot be adapted to the Surge, if the Form is determined by his old Form.

2 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

According to the Fused Venli speaks to in OB I-6 they can't share the space.

"Unlike the witless Voidspren you bonded - which reside in your gemheart - my soul cannot share its dwelling."

Yet they have Forms.

[Blightsong]

@Pagerunner I agree with most of what you're saying, but I don't remember that Syl quote and cant find it after looking pretty extensively through the Oathbringer eBook. Let me know if you find it, cause I think that's the main crux of our disagreement here.

[Michael Portz]

I don't think, there is too much to the Kaladin / Lirin conflict. Just try to remember that they have a lot to catchup in their relationship, as Requiem17 already said:

1 hour ago, Requiem17 said:

Lirin just comes across as a disappointed father to me.

Kaladin seems to have visited Hearthstone frequently. His mother is well aware of his personal situation (e.g. about the details of his relationships to Lyn and Syl). Moreover she knows of Lirins and Kaladins problems with each other and tries to arbitrate:

Quote

“Are you going to go talk to your father?”

The whole scene to me has the vibes of an everyday situation in many families all over the world: Son comes home after work. Father notices (again) that the son is not what the father hoped him to be when he was little. They struggle a bit but only halfheartedly.

I am confident, it will turn out ok.

[scm288]

Quote

The Fused are still pathetically weak and I'm still at a loss for how the Heralds ever died to these chumps.

My understanding of the balance of power between the Fused and the Radiants is that, even without access to Surges, the Fused would come back again, and again, and again.

Kill your enemy a dozen times--if he just keeps coming back in a different body, how do you defeat that? Any Radiant dying is irreplaceable except through the slow development of a new Nahel bond. Any Fused dying just means that it gets sent back to Braize, only to be reborn once more.

I recall the Stormfather explaining to Dalinar that this was the reason for the Oathpact and the creation of the Heralds--to try to balance the scales and even the odds. To give Radiants a recurring, reincarnating team of superpowered Radiants to match the might of the Fused.

Edited July 28, 2020 by scm288

[Clarity-Art]

After rereading the prologue and Chapter One obsessively last week, I was way too excited for these chapters to drop. They're easily becoming the highlight of my week. Is it sad that I don't have much better to do besides finishing college coursework, slouch around while eating trail mix, and watch The Expanse? Probably. But this is sustaining my hype for RoW, so here are a few takeaways that I gleaned from Chapters Two and Three. 

1. The Fused's tactic in stabbing Kaladin repeatedly to sever his spinal cord was well-reasoned. Go for somebody's central nervous system, and even Radiants will be having a bad time. Also, the name reveal for the type of Fused that parallels the Windrunners was interesting! I've heard people theorize that the reason why the Fused have nine orders and not ten is because they lack an order that's analogous to the Bondsmiths, since Odium doesn't focus on Connection. That seems more and more accurate as we learn more about voidlight, the Fused, and the singers.

2. I feel like Syl is growing into her own role and becoming more of an independent, expressive character. She was very unique before, but she seems more personable and less. . . spren-like, if that makes any sense. Her interactions with Kaladin's family make her seem more like an adoptive sister than anything. Additionally, when Kaladin notes that she manifests with a new style of dress due to Adolin's fashion pointers, I found that super endearing. I'd love to see more interactions between Syl and Adolin. Fingers crossed!

3. Veil, Radiant, and Shallan are coexisting in relative harmony, as indicated by their ongoing internal dialogue. After the events of Oathbringer, I'm glad that Shallan found a balance between her own identity and her other personas, but I'm hoping that she doesn't develop a fourth personality in Rhythm of War. While I don't think she would, and she certainly would be able to deal with it much better than before, it's still a concerning prospect. The hunt for the Sons of Honor seems to be going well though. I'm curious to see who's now in charge of the Sons, now that Amaram is dead. 

4. Kaladin can't even have happiness in his love life? Storms. Well, I hope he continues to work on himself while being a strong, independent Windrunner. At least he has a loving family and the cutest little brother ever. 

5. Roshar is now one step closer to space travel. Give Navani enough time and she'll be on the path to inventing something like the Rosharan version of the Epstein drive. I think her airship's name is a nice homage to Bridge 4, and I'm glad that working on the fabrial technology helped her process the grief of Elhokar's death. Speaking of Elhokar, I wonder who's watching Gavinor. Now that the people of Hearthstone are leaving for elsewhere on the airship, is there a chance we could embark on the path towards an Oroden-Gavinor bromance someday?  

6. Aluminum has even more special properties on Roshar, especially when paired with fabrial technologies. Considering how many worlds throughout the Cosmere have unique Investiture-related reactions with aluminum, we might as well declare aluminum Adonalsium's god metal and call it a day. (I kid, but seriously, aluminum is something special. Brandon is up to something.)

7. The Mink is already great. He and Dalinar seem to be getting along well, since they both value being straightforwards in terms of communication. But Dalinar disregarding Navani's insistence that Fourth Bridge was hers? That's irksome. I hope that their marriage doesn't deteriorate into the same relationship she had with Gavilar. Dalinar seems to be doing alright with his newfound leadership, but as we've seen a thousand times over, he could easily begin shunting aside his family in favor of better running the Radiants. 

I'm also happy to see that there are more Edgedancers, most likely trained and pushed into awesomeness by Lift herself. A potential collaboration between the Edgedancers, Lirin, and other field surgeons would be amazing. As for Navani's airship defenses, I can't wait to see them in action next week! These chapters provided a lot of information about the timeskip between Oathbringer and Rhythm of War without overwhelming us through giant infodumps, and I enjoyed them thoroughly. All aboard the RoW hype train, Radiants!

[Karger]

10 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

New guy is pretty cool though I wonder why he didnt just leave his knife in Kaladins neck instead of removing it. Seems silly to me. Does anyone have an explanation beyond PIS?

Probably a reflex.  In this specific instance it might be smarter but on the battlefield you don't have time to wait for an enemy to bleed out(of stormlight in this case).  If the fused waited around by the guy they were trying to kill someone would lop their head off from behind.  It makes sense to cause more damage.

12 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

But the Fused are not Dullform, are they? So what happens if a Regal died and was made a Fused?

Becoming a fused means changing forms.  That means they have to let the old spren go when they do it.

12 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Yet they have Forms.

Fusedform.

4 minutes ago, Michael Portz said:

I am confident, it will turn out ok.

I hope so.

5 minutes ago, scm288 said:

My understanding of the balance of power between the Fused and the Radiants is that, even without access to Surges, the Fused would come back again, and again, and again.

You are correct.

[Nymeros]

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

Probably a reflex.  In this specific instance it might be smarter but on the battlefield you don't have time to wait for an enemy to bleed out(of stormlight in this case).  If the fused waited around by the guy they were trying to kill someone would lop their head off from behind.  It makes sense to cause more damage.

The Fused was still there holding Kaladin. It just seemed odd that he would severe Kaladins spine but then remove the knife, allow the wound to heal, then cut into his neck again. The Fused repeated this for some time which is how Kaladin countered. He should have just left the knife in his neck. Even Moash knew to just keep the blade in place to counter healing as he did with Elokhar.

[Karger]

5 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

The Fused was still there holding Kaladin. It just seemed odd that he would severe Kaladins spine but then remove the knife, allow the wound to heal, then cut into his neck again

It is not a knife it is part of his body and he is no waiting he is just pulling back and smashing again and again.  He is trying to get Kaladin to run out of stormlight.  What Moash did will not often work against Wndrunners for one simple reason.  Kaladin should have brought a friend.  You can fight with one hand trapped in someone else's body.

[Gilphon]

• The Gravitation Fused always accept when Kaladin challenges them to single combat, but this Transportation Fused has no such hang-ups. Makes me think that they might also have swear oaths of some kind to access their powers. Though probably not the same ones as the Radiants.
• Kaladin is 'most familiar' with the Gravitation Fused. Are they actually the most numerous, or just the ones most likely to be sent to deal with Kaladin?
• The Fused do not have infinite voidlight; they have to carry around spheres like everyone else.
• I would guess, given that even the fuel-efficient Fused can only do that teleporting trick three times before needing to re-fuel, that it's too stormlight intensive for Radiants to pull off with the same kind of effectiveness. Except, Venli, as a Singer in an order with Teleportation, could very well be able to do it. 
• Interesting to see the way the Fused's physical features back up his magical ones. He can't take objects with him when he teleports, so he has thick hair that acts as clothes and built-in weapons. 
• Hmm. You need to drain a gem of stormlight to make a Fabrial, and there's no commonly known way of doing that. But the highest ranking members of the artefabrian guilds know a way that they're very careful to keep secret from the rest of the world. Perhaps the Skybreakers weren't the only Order that secretly survived. 
• Also, further indications that the scouring of Aimia was a war, not a magical cataclysm of some kind. It's harder to imagine how Dai-Gonartis could've been the principle cause. 
• Lots of Edgedancers and Windrunners, but no mention of the other orders. We saw in Shadesmar that the Cultivationspren seemed to be the most strongly pro-Radiant type of spren, so that fits; once they saw that things weren't immediately headed for Recreance 2.0, they came back in force. I would guess that the majority of Windrunners we see are squires, and there are still a relatively small number of Honorspren accepting bonds. 

Edited July 28, 2020 by Gilphon

[Karger]

Just now, Gilphon said:

The Gravitation Fused always accept with Kaladin challenges them to single combat, but this Transportation Fused has no such hang-ups. Makes me think that they might also have swear oaths of some kind to access their powers. Though probably not the same ones as the Radiants.

It might be cultural.  A way for this specific group of fused to reconcile their old ethics to Odium's new ones.

1 minute ago, Gilphon said:

Kaladin is 'most familiar' with the Gravitation Fused. Are they actually the most numerous, or just the ones most likely to be sent to deal with Kaladin?

I think the first is more likely.  They are clearly a martial group and have powers suited to fighting Windrunners.

2 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

I would guess, given that even the fuel-efficient Fused can only do that teleporting trick three times before needing to re-fuel, that it's too stormlight intensive for Radiants to pull off with the same kind of effectiveness. Except, Venli, as a Singer in an order with Teleportation, could very well be able to do it. 

Radiants are less efficient but they have more power(usually).

3 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

Hmm. You need to drain a gem of stormlight to make a Fabrial, and there's no commonly known way of doing that. But the highest ranking members of the artefabrian guilds know a way that they're very careful to keep secret from the rest of the world. Perhaps the Skybreakers weren't the only Order that secretly survived. 

They were.  We know that fabrials for infusing gems exist.  It stands to reason the reverse is true.

4 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

Lots of Edgedancers and Windrunners, but no mention of the other orders. We saw in Shadesmar that the Cultivationspren seemed to be the most strongly pro-Radiant type of spren, so that fits; once they saw that things weren't immediately headed for Recreance 2.0, they came back in force. I would guess that the majority of Windrunners we see are squires, and there are still a relatively small number of Honorspren accepting bonds. 

Good points.

[Innovation]

I would say they use draining Fabrials for removing the Stormlight. 
 

Is the Sibling in the gemstone column? You apparently need to remove Stormlight for a Spren to enter, so I assume it works the other way around. If Dalinar can’t infuse it, then there has to be something in there.