RoW Chapter 2 & 3 Discussion

[Trizee]

Banning toes!

I was laughing out loud

[Red Windrunner]

8 minutes ago, rjl said:

Hopefully it will be a quick evac operation without complications and all over half way through part 1....

You never know with brandon. Sometimes you breeze right over somethings. Other times it drags out for an entire part. As long as it’s I interesting and the characters play in interesting ways, I’m here for whatever. 

[+Oltux72]

That form of teleportation looked  very different from what Jasnah or oath gates do. And why does that Fused have horns?

I would say that that Fused is something extraordinary. We are seeing a Fused who is also a Regal. Also the flying Fused do not carry reserves of Voidlight.

[Harbour]

The more i read the chapter the crazier i become realizing we wont get the whole thing in a four months.

There was the first hint of something wrong happening with Kaladin as a Radiant. He cant cleep and there is some new, more frequent feeling other than exhaustion. I guess thats either somehow linked with either Ideals or with Honorsprens refusing to help Windrunners. I will go further and predict that everything will go very bad for him, and this will be connected with his exhaustion, Moash and Lirin, that will lead to him becoming just a surgeon.

 

 

Also, the description of Fused fighting reminded me this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrMcfE7kz84

[Toaster Retribution]

Yeah, I wonder if that Fused will be a recurring character similar to Leshwi. Brandon has given him interesting powers, Kaladin made a point of noting that his minions seemed to be afraid of him, and he was also very good at fighting Radiants. I hope he keeps on appearing, since we need more cool and competent Fused. Leshwi is kinda lame. 

[Agent34]

2 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Yeah, I wonder if that Fused will be a recurring character similar to Leshwi. Brandon has given him interesting powers, Kaladin made a point of noting that his minions seemed to be afraid of him, and he was also very good at fighting Radiants. I hope he keeps on appearing, since we need more cool and competent Fused. Leshwi is kinda lame. 

The origin of Radiantslayer.

[Toaster Retribution]

Just now, Agent34 said:

The origin of Radiantslayer.

He could be the General Grievous of Roshar.

[+Child of Hodor]

6 minutes ago, nonix said:

I also hope that it is over quickly, the operation itself seems small in the grand scheme of things, but I suppose that it can lead to new larger things. But I wouldn't be surprised if it is part 1 for the group. 

Yeah, Dalinar said it would take weeks. We know Dalinar and Kaladin are back by at Urithiru by the Syl interlude. I imagine that takes place between part 1 and part 2. I don't think he'd give us an interlude that discusses the plot from much farther in the book. 

10 minutes ago, Agent34 said:

Unless we're missing something (which is entirely possible) the financial ruin resulted from their soulcaster being damaged in the fight, meaning they couldn't create new stone deposits.

Yep, you're right! We're missing something, there's always another secret, but it might not have to do with the finances. 

 

15 minutes ago, Red Windrunner said:

 How will Lirin feel about the civilians being pulled into a war zone? 

Lirin better straighten up and fly right (literally  ). Total disrespect to Dalinar who freed his son from slavery and is rescuing the entire village.

Does he know who Dalinar is? He's the guy that's deeply Connected to the remnants of  god, that's who! (Ok he's also the guy that burned many, many civilians to death. BUT, he's better now!)

I have little tolerance for Lirin's stick in the mud attitude. I do have some sympathy when Dalinar is like "the Edgedancers can heal with magic now. Your services aren't required." 

[Red Windrunner]

2 minutes ago, Harbour said:

The more i read the chapter the crazier i become realizing we wont get the whole thing in a four months.

There was the first hint of something wrong happening with Kaladin as a Radiant. He cant cleep and there is some new, more frequent feeling other than exhaustion. I guess thats either somehow linked with either Ideals or with Honorsprens refusing to help Windrunners. I will go further and predict that everything will go very bad for him, and this will be connected with his exhaustion, Moash and Lirin, that will lead to him becoming just a surgeon.

 

I think you’re going to see Kal either bond a second spren or part of Syl’s history is being a child of Honor and Cultivation:

-giving Kaladin 4 surges

-allowing Kaladin to balance his soldier and surgeon aspects into one self actualized person

-Brandon gets to play with how these new reasonances would operate, essentially giving Kal new power sets. 

[Mage of Lirigon]

Extremely interesting chapters here.

Shallan is doing better than before, since she at least seems to have a firm grasp on who's who inside her head.

Kaladin is trying more than before, since I can't imagine Oathbringer Kaladin dating someone. Lyn is a nice girl by all accounts, but dating a subordinate rarely ends well.  I laughed at that scene with Hesina and Syl though. Nothing like your female relatives/friends talking about your love life in front of you. 

The Mink is an intriguing new character, if ever there was a proto Radiant in the making, its him...

The fabrial ship is as amazing as advertised, and I love that Navani honoured Bridge Four with the name. The arms race in Roshar is on. I'd really like to see what the singers response to this will be.

Seeing this chapter, the idea that Navani will become the new Bondsmith just quadrupled in likelihood in my head.

 

 

[Red Windrunner]

Definitely seems like Navani will be the unintended third main character with Venli and Eshonai

[Innovation]

What has happened to the war over the last year? Herdez continued to fight, but there were other battlegrounds that were being contested. What was gained and lost?

[Pagerunner]

Dalinar's got his Spiritual Realm knowledge again - like how he knows about the New Oathpactmembers.

Kaladin aligns the Fused to Orders, but they seem to be more aligned to Surges to me. This is Transportation, not Elsecaller.

Why is Veil hunting the Sons of Honor? Is this a Ghostblood mission?

More suppressed memories. Doing her father's ledgers? Between when she killed her mother and when she killed her father, I'm guessing. I'm going to need to refresh myself on her timelines; is this her regression as a Radiant? How she 'killed' Pattern?

Kaladin can't sleep. Cue the Geralt memes.
Kalalyn happened and ended offscreen. Just enough of a reminder to the readers of Kaladin's romantic issues for Laral to stroll back into his life.

"The Ganlos Riera herself coldn't catch him!" Chana, Vedel, Paliah, Shallash, Betab... doesn't match any of those names. Reya...?

"Lirin had wanred that if Kaladin kept visiting, he would bring death to Hearthstone. Today it had come to the singer who had attacked him. Lirin had covered the corpse with a shroud." That's twice now we've gotten that line; once at the end of Lirin's chapter, now here in Chapter 2. Laying it on a little thick, aren't you Brandon? Putting Lirin's name right where you'd expect a "tomorrow, it would be..." contrasting statement.

"Navani, naturally, leaned out farther. One would think that during over fifty years of life, she would have found a way to rise above her natural impetuous streak. Instead she’d rather alarmingly found her way to enough power to simply do as she chose." Barely getting into the her first chapter before Willshaper Navani comes out.

I'll get to an analysis of fabrial mechanics of airships in a later post. It's not quite adding up for me. I can see two possible mechanisms, but I don't like either of them. First, you could place half in an aluminum container, isolating the connection and allowing free movement of each half. But then how do you stay afloat when you isolate the vertical lattice so you can move horizontal? The second is that aluminum obstructs the movement without breaking the connection, but I don't like that in terms of historical aluminum Realmatic interference (where you can't Push directly on aluminum, but it doesn't impede your movement any more than your regular weight, as evidenced by Wax flying around with an aluminum gun), and it would seem to make the whole ship susceptible to one chump with a piece of aluminum stopping the whole thing. But I'll go into that in more detail later, when I've got some more time to think it over and write it up.

“Perhaps, perhaps. But for a moment, imagine a fleet of ordinary ships suffering an attack from one of these up above. It wouldn’t need trained archers. The flying sailors could drop stones and sink a fleet in minutes…” He glanced to her. “My dear, if these things become ubiquitous, it won’t only be navies that are rendered obsolete. I can’t decide if I’m glad to be old enough to wish my world a fond farewell, or if I envy the young lads who get to explore this new world.” Take notes, Scadrial. I think getting airships in these two series are definitely setting the stage for eventual spaceships. I wonder if this will be the long-term Rosharan spaceship tech; you've got a huge base of operations on Roshar that's driving its starfleet around?

"Navani slipped her notebook from her pocket as Dalinar raised his hand and pressed it against Kaladin’s chest. There was a faint… warping to the air around them, and for a moment she thought she could see into Shadesmar. Another realm, filled with beads of glass and candle flames floating in place of people’s souls. She thought, for the briefest moment, she heard a tone in the distance. A pure note vibrating through her." Spiritual Realm, I think. This is faintly reminiscient of WoKP's Soul Tones, which were involved in Soulcasting. The hat's been hung on this lampshade pretty heavily, so hopefully this phenomenon gets dug into a little more in this book.

Sibling talk. Get some explicit ties to Bondsmith spren and the Urithiru tower. But remember, it began to slumber before the Recreance, before Melishi (the only Bondsmith of his time) did something to Ba-Ado-Mishram's parsh, so I don't think it was bonded; I think it had willingly allowed itself to be contained in the fabrial of the tower. Navani assumes "perhaps something about its relationship with a human," but I think that's as off-base as VenDell's hints about Identity-free Allomancy at the beginning of Bands of Mourning. In the right direction, but not quite accurate.

[Harbour]

About Lirin. Not gonna somehow justify his attitude towards Dalinar, but this scene painfully reminded the readers that Lirin is the father of his son. Kaladin was just as disrespectful towards Dalinar and other lighteyes in TWOK and WoR as Lirin now. The same blood, the same genes, the same disrespectful and judging manners.

[Red Windrunner]

Just now, Harbour said:

About Lirin. Not gonna somehow justify his attitude towards Dalinar, but this scene painfully reminded the readers that Lirin is the father of his son. Kaladin was just as disrespectful towards Dalinar and other lighteyes in TWOK and WoR as Lirin now. The same blood, the same genes, the same disrespectful and judging manners.

Also his incredulity about taking the name Stormblessed

[Toaster Retribution]

7 minutes ago, Innovation said:

What has happened to the war over the last year? Herdez continued to fight, but there were other battlegrounds that were being contested. What was gained and lost?

It seems like both sides have been content to lick their wounds. The Urithiru Alliance needs more manpower, and most of all more KRs (presumably they also wanted to rebuild Thaylen City). They have much to gain from being on the defensive at the moment.

Odiums forces also has much to gain from a slacker year. More and more Fused will keep on arriving from Braize, both the ones killed off during OB, and also older and more powerful ones (I guess this new one is one of those). Every day, Odiums forces will grow. For some reason Odium also went on the little sidequest in Herdaz, which seemed to demand much more attention and manpower than intended (as an aside, have we even considered how badass the Mink is, since he held not only against superior numbers, but presumably against Fused as well, with little to no access to magic of his own). 

So as an aside, I think both sides were on the defensive, and when both sides are on the defensive, not a lot happens when it comes to gains and losses. 

[nonix]

1 minute ago, Red Windrunner said:

Also his incredulity about taking the name Stormblessed

This was kind of funny to me, he wouldn't have had a clue about this.

I originally expected Moash to lead to Kaladin's issues from the Syl interlude as I expected him to be around since it was evident he would hunt Roshone. But this chapter makes me believe that Lirin is the actual cause. Whether Lirin survives this mission and his poor attitude toward Kaladin causes it, or Lirin dies on the mission and that makes Kaladin become a surgeon, is the important part of it. Although I'm kind of now expecting a talk with Hesina to be what allows Kaladin to progress, as Kaladin's relationship with her seems to be solid.

[Cheat Commando]

I loved Syl teasing Kaladin and Syl and Hesina gossiping about him to his face. In another thread I mentioned shipping Syladin, but now that my head has been fully immersed in Roshar again, I am backing out of that. They have a great sibling relationship and I'm okay keeping it that way.

Shallan's new coping mechanism made me happy.... Well, not happy, but it felt like progress to me. It still made me sad to see that Shallan wasn't fully ready to accept her past.  I hope she can make some progress in her healing in this book.

I love Dalinar and Navani, especially after having read the prologue. I seriously hope that Navani will open up to Dalinar about her feelings from this chapter, and I hope that Dalinar listen to her. I actually do hope that Brandson Sanderson shows them learning to have those conversations because that's definitely not the Alethi way. Dalinar is breaking those cultural conventions though, so I hope he learns to listen and even encourage Navani to speak her heart.

I love Oroden 

Lirin seems a little more stubborn than I remember him, but I should just reread WoK. I hope he learns to consider Kaladin's point of view for once. He doesn't have to change his own ideals, but I at least want him to give Kaladin a chance to explain his side of the story.

I also want them to have the opportunity to talk. It's hard to talk with a war going on.

1 minute ago, Harbour said:

About Lirin. Not gonna somehow justify his attitude towards Dalinar, but this scene painfully reminded the readers that Lirin is the father of his son. Kaladin was just as disrespectful towards Dalinar and other lighteyes in TWOK and WoR as Lirin now. The same blood, the same genes, the same disrespectful and judging manners.

Agreed. It bugged me that Lirin seemed very ungrateful towards Dalinar. Dalinar is awesome and is trying to be a good man.

[+Child of Hodor]

1 minute ago, Pagerunner said:

Dalinar's got his Spiritual Realm knowledge again - like how he knows about the New Oathpactmembers.

Kaladin aligns the Fused to Orders, but they seem to be more aligned to Surges to me. This is Transportation, not Elsecaller.

Sibling talk. Get some explicit ties to Bondsmith spren and the Urithiru tower. But remember, it began to slumber before the Recreance, before Melishi (the only Bondsmith of his time) did something to Ba-Ado-Mishram's parsh, so I don't think it was bonded; I think it had willingly allowed itself to be contained in the fabrial of the tower. Navani assumes "perhaps something about its relationship with a human," but I think that's as off-base as VenDell's hints about Identity-free Allomancy at the beginning of Bands of Mourning. In the right direction, but not quite accurate.

It probably was spiritual realm knowledge. I thought maybe the Stormfather would have told him, Stormfather identified the 9 shadows as Umade, and he recognizes the Heralds so he remembers some things. But, Dalinar would probably have just said Stormfather told him and would not have been cagey with Navani about the source. 

Yeah, Fused seem to have 1 surge each. I guess they call that an order, I dunno. They get their magic from within, not a spren type, so it is very different. 

 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/362/#e11156

Agreed, Navani is getting bad info. Sibling is not dead. The Sibling "withdrew" before the Recreance according to the gem archive (OB ch. 68 epigraph) and is "slumbering" according to the Stormfather (OB Ch. 111). Some spren are telling her the "slumber" is permanent, but when Dalinar asks Stormfather where they are he shuts Dalinar down "No! leave them alone. You hurt them enough." (OB Ch. 111) Stormfather seems to be worried it's not necessarily permanent. 

 

[Stark]

I remember way back when in Oathbringer that Adolin might become Highprince, and need to take a Highprince title, I joked about him being Highprince of Fashion.

 

Seeing him give fashion tips to Syl has me Want to bring that supposition back...  I loved that little moment.

[Honorless]

1) Somehow, it really just clicked for me that the Fused aren't mimicking the Orders, they're mimicking the individual Surges

2) Yup, it was the Sibling, not the Stormfather who was Bonded during the Recreance and thus hurt by it, (on top of whatever else was happening that was causing them to withdraw)

3) Lirin that's your traumatized son, don't make me come over there and throttle you

4) yes, so a lot of the Honorspren have started to Bond, just like OB made us think would happen... then does something happen in RoW that necessitated Shallan & Adolin venturing into the Shadesmar as envoys? 

5) I wasn't expecting the flying ship yet... a lot of the things I'd been expecting to see much later due to the series being so huge are happening really fast & dragging even more things, entirely unexpected things, along with them. Love it! 

6) the Fused is leaving a body behind! Also that's not quite teleportation, they're zipping around in spren-like form, and rebuilding their body. Is this a difference in mechanics between their Surgebinding and standard Surgebinding? Is Odium merely mimicking Surgebinding? Or is the standard Surge of Transportation the same. I did suggest this as a way to pseudo-teleport but I wasn't expecting Transportation to utilize this! I thought it would use mini-Perpendicularities! What is happening!

7) Syl is a darling

8) Kal was with Lyn!?

9) Shallan is treating Radiant & Veil as different people who're sharing headspace... 

Edited July 29, 2020 by Honorless
edited for clarity (4)

[Pattern]

Quote

The easiest method would be to use a larkin—a type of cremling that feasts on Stormlight. That would be wonderful and convenient if the creatures weren’t now almost entirely extinct. The wars in Aimia were in part over these seemingly innocent little creatures.

The Scouring of Aimia...?
The natural presence of larkin in Aimia explains the prevalence of soulcasters there - and probably other kinds of fabrials.

[snoopy]

Can someone remind me of the definition of 'highmarshal'?  How it ranks among other high ranks, what it entails, etc? It's obviously an important role, significantly higher up that 'captain', but I don't remember much else.  It's not defined in the coppermind wiki and I'm wondering what it specifically means for Kaladin.  

[Blightsong]

1 hour ago, Pagerunner said:

Sibling talk. Get some explicit ties to Bondsmith spren and the Urithiru tower. But remember, it began to slumber before the Recreance, before Melishi (the only Bondsmith of his time) did something to Ba-Ado-Mishram's parsh, so I don't think it was bonded; I think it had willingly allowed itself to be contained in the fabrial of the tower. Navani assumes "perhaps something about its relationship with a human," but I think that's as off-base as VenDell's hints about Identity-free Allomancy at the beginning of Bands of Mourning. In the right direction, but not quite accurate.

I think this new chapter pretty much proves that the Sibling was the spren Melishi had bonded. It reads "Unfortunately, the Sibling had died during the Recreance." This seems pretty indisputable. The only counter evidence to this I know of is the gem archives (which do suggest the Sibling didnt die during the full Recreance we see at Feverstone), but we don't actually know the order in which the gems were imprinted or the full timeline of the abandonment. Is there anything else I'm missing? As for your idea that they were trapped in a fabrial, I think the below passage from the Stormfather makes it pretty clear that the Sibling had their oaths betrayed.

Quote

There is … a third sibling. They are not with us. “In hiding?” No. Slumbering. “Tell me more.” No. “But—” No! Leave them alone. You hurt them enough.

Edited July 28, 2020 by Blightsong

[Innovation]

Amaram was a Highmarshal. I assume it means controlling an army instead of a battalion, like Kaladin did before. 

Edited July 28, 2020 by Innovation