+Oltux72 Posted July 28, 2020 Report Share Posted July 28, 2020 OK, we can just as well speculate on this. How are they going to do it? That applies to two issues, how are they getting into and out of Shadesmar and how do they survive there? You need a way to get into Shadesmar. Obvious ones Cultivation's perpendicularity - occupied, hence problematic Honor's perpendicularity - where is it? Dalinar does Unity again - you'd light a gigantic signal beacon an oath gate - they are blocked the Surge of Transportation - [wild theory: the blade Adolin is holding on the Bulgarian cover is an Honorblade], can Jasnah elsecall somebody else? None of these options looks really good and tested. And how do they keep themselves alive? Do they go back to the lighthouse and transfer with a lot of supplies? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted July 28, 2020 Report Share Posted July 28, 2020 25 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: OK, we can just as well speculate on this. How are they going to do it? That applies to two issues, how are they getting into and out of Shadesmar and how do they survive there? You need a way to get into Shadesmar. Obvious ones Cultivation's perpendicularity - occupied, hence problematic Honor's perpendicularity - where is it? Dalinar does Unity again - you'd light a gigantic signal beacon an oath gate - they are blocked the Surge of Transportation - [wild theory: the blade Adolin is holding on the Bulgarian cover is an Honorblade], can Jasnah elsecall somebody else? None of these options looks really good and tested. And how do they keep themselves alive? Do they go back to the lighthouse and transfer with a lot of supplies? Personally in this case i am an advocate of occams razor. We know jasnah can create a mini perp between the physical and the cognitive realm. We know as per WoB that it can bring more than themselves. We know as per WoB that it is easier to get into the cognitive realm than get out. Finally i dont see any reason why the envoy would transfer anywhere other than the secure location that is urithiru so as to not worry about being ambushed or not knowing what is on the other side waiting for them to transfer. Makes more sense to me to transfer in a secure location and then head over. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 Posted July 28, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2020 29 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Finally i dont see any reason why the envoy would transfer anywhere other than the secure location that is urithiru so as to not worry about being ambushed or not knowing what is on the other side waiting for them to transfer. Makes more sense to me to transfer in a secure location and then head over. Stormlight & food. And lack of transport. There is no free water or food in Shadesmar. They are limited to what they can condense out of the air and can carry, unless they make contact with spren or people ready to carry humans. So unless they have a perfect gem they have a few weeks until death from thirst until they have to make contact with spren. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted July 28, 2020 Report Share Posted July 28, 2020 52 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: Stormlight & food. And lack of transport. There is no free water or food in Shadesmar. They are limited to what they can condense out of the air and can carry, unless they make contact with spren or people ready to carry humans. So unless they have a perfect gem they have a few weeks until death from thirst until they have to make contact with spren. You have quite a few things that would make all of that a non issue so im confused why they were brought up 1. Jasnah traveled extensively through the cognitive realm and spoke with the highspren. She would know locations and trade routes. 2. Honorspren to bonded knights with increasing sapience due to oath advancement increases memory recall. I would think any of them could advise on the best path/trip through shadesmar to get to lasting integrity. What they cannot advise on however is the current climate with fused occupying cities. Which is why i suggested entering via an established and secure location that is urithiru 3. Shallan and co when they first ended up in the cognitive realm did not expect it so had not prepared supplies necessary. Dalinar can recharge spheres. They can enter with food, water, and currency (gems with stormlight) that will last them for longer than they need to reach each stage of the trip. The only question mark would be if the towns they intend to stop at are taken over by fused. Which a lightweaver with illusions could certainly help with that. The additional resources would cover if they couldn't make a stop at an occupied town. Finally it is a delegation, so it wouldn't be just shallan and adolin carrying everything by themselves. Also as you mentioned, shallan as a lightweaver can manifest resources with the proper beads that can also be brought with them. I didn't include this part in the list because i cannot recall for sure nor have a chance to pull it up to confirm, but doesn't stormlight not drain in the cognitive realm unless actively used/breathed in by a radiant? I could have sworn they said they were surprised that all the spheres hadn't gone dunn naturally. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTheodore Posted July 28, 2020 Report Share Posted July 28, 2020 How do we know Urithiru is a secure location in the cognitive realm and that fused aren't just guarding it like they were guarding the Oathgates in Thaylen City? How do we know it is a delegation? I was under the impression it was Shallan, Adolin and a unnamed envoy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted July 28, 2020 Report Share Posted July 28, 2020 (edited) 44 minutes ago, LordTheodore said: How do we know Urithiru is a secure location in the cognitive realm and that fused aren't just guarding it like they were guarding the Oathgates in Thaylen City? Real easy for elsecallers and lightweavers to take a peek into the cognitive realm. That and all the spren present and arriving at urithiru bonding knights up to the point that the honorspren refuse? Quote How do we know it is a delegation? I was under the impression it was Shallan, Adolin and a unnamed envoy. To my knowledge a delegation is a group representing a larger group. Not sure how that isn't a delegation. (Typing on my phone so it is not my intention to sound curt or short. Just trying to work with what i got) Edit: additional comment that i took for granted but realized others might not think the same way. Spren in the cognitive realm dont need to eat or drink but have physical bodies that can carry backpacks full of supplies. Edited July 28, 2020 by Pathfinder 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted July 28, 2020 Report Share Posted July 28, 2020 I think the best way might be for Dalinar to just unlock the Urithiru oathgate so that they can just go to and from the CR at will. Also it would give scholars a safe way to do research on the CR and to move large amounts of supplies stormlgiht and even transportation(like a boat) into Urithiru. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjl Posted July 28, 2020 Report Share Posted July 28, 2020 Looking at the maps the Vedenar oathgate may be nearer to where they want to get to in shadesmar than the Urithiru oathgate so if Dalinar can unlock an oathgate that one may be a better choice purely for this purpose. For supplies - take loads of stuff with them, the only reason supplies were a nightmare in Oathbringer is that they hadn't prepped for the trip because they weren't meant to end up there. Also, pet theory, the reason Adolin is going is because he's revived Maya and this is their key argument. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted July 29, 2020 Report Share Posted July 29, 2020 Not sure it is a simple matter of unlocking an oathgate to transfer from physical to cognitive realm as the Thaylenah oathgate had been open for some time, but the spren of the oathgate still wouldn't allow Shallan and Co to cross over due to their promise. So I think it is more likely that either Jasnah or another elsecaller would transfer people over, or Dalinar opening up the perp again. Which is why I suggested Urithiru which I would imagine over the year time they had fortified both physical and cognitive means of entry due to what they saw happen in oathbringer. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuram Posted July 29, 2020 Report Share Posted July 29, 2020 19 hours ago, rjl said: Also, pet theory, the reason Adolin is going is because he's revived Maya and this is their key argument Big doubt that happened off-screen. It's more likely Adolin is around because radiants lose a lot of effectiveness in shadesmar; you have to be sparring with stormlight, and you cannot manifest your blade. Adolin is actually an excellent pick because he's had a lifetime of experience with the sword, and can probably handle himself quite well even without a shardblade. Second, he probably just decided to go with his wife. It might not be any more complicated than that. I'm curious about Urithiru in shadesmar. In the physical, it's high in the mountains, but in shadesmar the location would be all beads since land and water are reversed... so I wonder what that looks like. The 'ocean' of beads would theoretically equalize at 'sea level', but the tower is so much higher than that. If they transfer to shadesmar would they fall hundreds of feet? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjl Posted July 29, 2020 Report Share Posted July 29, 2020 28 minutes ago, Kuram said: Big doubt that happened off-screen. It's more likely Adolin is around because radiants lose a lot of effectiveness in shadesmar; you have to be sparring with stormlight, and you cannot manifest your blade. Doesn't have to be off screen - in Part 1 the journey into shadesmar hasn't started yet. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted July 29, 2020 Report Share Posted July 29, 2020 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Kuram said: Big doubt that happened off-screen. It's more likely Adolin is around because radiants lose a lot of effectiveness in shadesmar; you have to be sparring with stormlight, and you cannot manifest your blade. Adolin is actually an excellent pick because he's had a lifetime of experience with the sword, and can probably handle himself quite well even without a shardblade. Second, he probably just decided to go with his wife. It might not be any more complicated than that. I'm curious about Urithiru in shadesmar. In the physical, it's high in the mountains, but in shadesmar the location would be all beads since land and water are reversed... so I wonder what that looks like. The 'ocean' of beads would theoretically equalize at 'sea level', but the tower is so much higher than that. If they transfer to shadesmar would they fall hundreds of feet? The oathgate platform in kholinar was physically present on the cognitive side. Urithiru has 10 such platforms, and I think given some of Urithiru's potential mystical nature, more of the tower itself could also be physically present. Would make sense to me. A location for spren and other cognitive travelers to stop off at to speak with radiants such as elsecallers. So although given that it is in the mountains which should mean it is a deep ocean in the cognitive, I would imagine a city like bastion with a harbor is present in its place in the cognitive realm. Edited July 29, 2020 by Pathfinder 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted July 29, 2020 Report Share Posted July 29, 2020 4 hours ago, Pathfinder said: Not sure it is a simple matter of unlocking an oathgate to transfer from physical to cognitive realm as the Thaylenah oathgate had been open for some time, but the spren of the oathgate still wouldn't allow Shallan and Co to cross over due to their promise. So I think it is more likely that either Jasnah or another elsecaller would transfer people over, or Dalinar opening up the perp again. Which is why I suggested Urithiru which I would imagine over the year time they had fortified both physical and cognitive means of entry due to what they saw happen in oathbringer. I am talking about a Dalinar unlock. Dalinar can undo Honor's bindings(like in his deal with Odium). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted July 30, 2020 Report Share Posted July 30, 2020 18 hours ago, Karger said: I am talking about a Dalinar unlock. Dalinar can undo Honor's bindings(like in his deal with Odium). Ah I understand now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchcry Posted July 31, 2020 Report Share Posted July 31, 2020 (edited) I can see Jasnah dropping them in, then checking in every day at a certain time and place to bring them back out. She'd need a lot of stormlight but if she came prepared she'd be good. It'd also be good practice for her. Edited July 31, 2020 by Watchcry 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ftl Posted August 1, 2020 Report Share Posted August 1, 2020 I think there's a logical straightforward way of trying to do this. They need to get in and out of Shadesmar. To get in, use Jasnah - as an Elsecaller she can send them in, though she's too valuable to send through and might not be able to get them back. Dalinar with his big Unity thing can retrieve them - it might be a huge beacon, but it won't matter for the return journely. Safe space to start the journey - an Oathgate, which is a platform. Or a riverbank. Pick whichever one of those is in Radiant-controlled territory, or even take Navani's flying ship a little bit into Singer territory to start the journey in the best place. Bring food, supplies, and infused gemstones to trade for more. Seems straightforward! Takes time, stormlight, and expense, but easy peasy, just do it offscreen! ....zero, absolutely zero chance of it ACTUALLY turning out that easy. But there's certainly a plausible route to overcoming each of the individual objections, enough that the characters might believe it's doable. (Of course, then everything goes wrong, and we get an awesome plotline out of it.) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 Posted August 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2020 On 28/07/2020 at 3:07 PM, Pathfinder said: 2. Honorspren to bonded knights with increasing sapience due to oath advancement increases memory recall. I would think any of them could advise on the best path/trip through shadesmar to get to lasting integrity. What they cannot advise on however is the current climate with fused occupying cities. Which is why i suggested entering via an established and secure location that is urithiru Urithiru would be in the middle of an ocean. You can transfer near a Spren City. But that is where the Fused are. On 28/07/2020 at 3:07 PM, Pathfinder said: 3. Shallan and co when they first ended up in the cognitive realm did not expect it so had not prepared supplies necessary. Dalinar can recharge spheres. They can enter with food, water, and currency (gems with stormlight) that will last them for longer than they need to reach each stage of the trip. If everything goes right. If you need to flee from the Fused into the wilderness, you will be in deep trouble. On 28/07/2020 at 3:07 PM, Pathfinder said: The only question mark would be if the towns they intend to stop at are taken over by fused. Which a lightweaver with illusions could certainly help with that. The additional resources would cover if they couldn't make a stop at an occupied town. Finally it is a delegation, so it wouldn't be just shallan and adolin carrying everything by themselves. Whenever you add somebody to carry stuff, he will need to eat and drink. Or are you suggesting they act like early expeditions to Antarctica and feed the unneeded pack animals to the other pack animals? On 28/07/2020 at 3:07 PM, Pathfinder said: Also as you mentioned, shallan as a lightweaver can manifest resources with the proper beads that can also be brought with them. But you cannot eat that stuff. If you could they wouldn't need to trade cans or use ice to condense water out of the air. On 28/07/2020 at 3:25 PM, Pathfinder said: Edit: additional comment that i took for granted but realized others might not think the same way. Spren in the cognitive realm dont need to eat or drink but have physical bodies that can carry backpacks full of supplies. Yes, It doubles your supply. But no more. A Raidiant's spren cannot get too far from the Knight. They would need to hire a group of porters in advance. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjl Posted August 1, 2020 Report Share Posted August 1, 2020 If they enter by the Vedenar oathgate the journey they need to take should be probably be slightly shorter than the journey they did in Oathbringer, and they can plan and bring some supplies whereas if Oathbringer all they had was what they'd happened to be carrying. In oathbringer they had the combined difficulties of opposition AND a lack of supplies - this time around the difficulty should be primarily opposition and not so much supplies - unless their supplies get stolen or something. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
earthexile Posted August 1, 2020 Report Share Posted August 1, 2020 Shallan has the ability to Soulcast, do we know whether the matter of Shadesmar can be transformed? It would be much easier to stay supplied if you can conjure water, grain, and meat out of stone. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted August 2, 2020 Report Share Posted August 2, 2020 7 hours ago, earthexile said: Shallan has the ability to Soulcast, do we know whether the matter of Shadesmar can be transformed? It would be much easier to stay supplied if you can conjure water, grain, and meat out of stone. There is no matter in shadesmar. Only investiture. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starla Posted August 2, 2020 Report Share Posted August 2, 2020 Is it possible that we have additional Elsecallers in ROW, and one or more of them have mastered the ability to transport in and out of Shadesmar? It would solve a lot of logistical problems with Shallan and Adolin's trip, so the book can focus on the mission itself rather than how they'll travel or get supplies. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted August 2, 2020 Report Share Posted August 2, 2020 55 minutes ago, Starla said: Is it possible that we have additional Elsecallers in ROW, and one or more of them have mastered the ability to transport in and out of Shadesmar? It is possible but given Ivory's attitudes I don't think it likely. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starla Posted August 3, 2020 Report Share Posted August 3, 2020 On 8/2/2020 at 2:59 PM, Karger said: It is possible but given Ivory's attitudes I don't think it likely. It's possible that more Inkspren have decided to bond in the last year. Similar to how Syl was the only Honorspren for a long time until several others came to watch the squires in Oathbringer and bonded Teft and Lopen. At least I hope this is the case... I would love to see numbers increasing in some of the other orders in addition to Windrunners, Edgedancers, and Lightweavers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted August 3, 2020 Report Share Posted August 3, 2020 1 minute ago, Starla said: I would love to see numbers increasing in some of the other orders in addition to Windrunners, Edgedancers, and Lightweavers. We will probably get some Truthwatchers but that seems like it is it for now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 Posted August 4, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2020 11 hours ago, Karger said: We will probably get some Truthwatchers but that seems like it is it for now. Dustbringers - are they uniform in attitude Skybreakers - they can't all follow Nale 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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