Laral + Kaladin

[dgreene196]

1 hour ago, DarthHoid said:

Honestly, I don't forsee a relationship in Kaladin's upcoming character development. I'm sure he'll have someone, maybe beyond the scope of the books, between 5 and 6, but I think he's got some work to do on his soul.

Even Shallan probably wouldn't have a romance arc if it wasn't pressed upon her by Jasnah. Radiants are broken people, and broken people are difficult in relationships, especially when they're both broken.

Though I will admit, its definitely more likely for him to end up with someone without Radiance.

Are all Radiants broken?  It certainly seems to be true for many of all key characters, but certainly not all.

[Starla]

I know Kaladin has a lot of work to do before he can enter into a healthy stable relationship, and I look forward to seeing him (hopefully) work through some of his issues with survivors guilt, depression, and PTSD in the coming book. However a relationship is a two way street, and I would also love to see a potential mate try to understand him as well, and to appreciate and accept him for who he is. Of all of the people we have seen him be interested in: Laral, Tarah, and Shallan, I don't think any of them have taken the time to truly understand where he is coming from. He is driven by the need to protect people and it motivates every aspect of his life, every decision he makes. It was what attracted Syl to find him out of "millions and millions" of people and made him the first Windrunner in 2000 years. It has helped him protect hundreds or thousands of people over the years, saving countless lives. I see it as a calling for him that he can't ignore and just put aside for the typical wife-and-kids lifestyle.

For example, Tarah seemed to hope he would leave his squad in the army to follow her to her new job, where he would most likely be a house guard for Sadeas. I know it's a romantic idea to drop everything and follow the girl, but I can't imagine Kaladin finding any lasting fulfillment or purpose in that situation. Tarah said he needed to be there "for the living," but isn't that what he was doing for all of the kids who he trained and protected so that they could live? I don't think she understood how important that was to him if she expected him to drop those kids to follow her. 

Even Shallan, who he opened up to in the chasm and told his story about being a slave and bridgemen, who also has her own fair share of trauma and thus should relate, didn't seem to care much or try to see his perspective on things. She insults him on a regular basis, including the snarky comment she made in Kholinar: “At least my soldiers knew when to get away from the warcamps, as opposed to just standing around letting people fling arrows at them.” Those insults hurt, as he notes in his inner monologue in that same chapter, but she doesn't seem to notice. I think both Kaladin and Shallan would both need to shift their perspective to have a deep and lasting relationship (as friends at this point). They are both coming from opposite ends of the spectrum of coping mechanisms. I hope they can do this because I like their interactions when they aren't misunderstanding each other.

So for Laral, I think the same two-way understanding would be required if anything developed with them. Just as he would need to push past his preconceived notions about her involvement with Roshone, her perceived callousness about Tien, or her eye color, she would also need to make an effort to listen to his story with some compassion, to try to understand what he's been through, and to see how important it is for him to help and protect people. It's part of who he is and I doubt it will change any time soon, so she would need to accept it as part of him not get frustrated at him for being passionate about his work. If Laral has a similar passion about her own work (which she seems to from the little we've seen of her), then they might be able to meet in the middle and make something work. 

 

[LordTheodore]

11 minutes ago, dgreene196 said:

Are all Radiants broken?  It certainly seems to be true for many of all key characters, but certainly not all.

I believe the current prevailing theory is that the nahel bond works by spren attaching themselves to an indivduals spirit web and that it is only possible to attach to a person who is 'broken' as otherwise their spiritweb wouldn't be damaged. This damage to the spirit web is what allows the spren to attach themselves to the individual. As I understand it none of this is confirmed.

[book.spren]

10 minutes ago, dgreene196 said:

Two minor points (which I only recall since I just finished my TWoK reread):

• When the citylordship was given to Roshone, Laral received a significant dowry.  Roshone supposedly viewed that dowry as key for the future of his son to address the fall of their family.
• Kaladin definitely knew his father stole the spheres.

Otherwise, I completely agree with your assessment and why Kaladin building/rebuilding a relationship with Laral would be good for him, particularly in helping him broaden his perspectives.  Of course, they can have a non-romantic relationship and achieve much the same.  I think both could certainly benefit from the other's friendship.

Bonus:  Her status as Roshone's wife would cause some murdery feelings in Moash, which could drive all sorts of interesting conflict for Kaladin.

I would add that Laral literally encouraged Kaladin to go to war with the express purpose of winning a Shardblade and becoming a light-eyes. Both Kaladin and Laral had/have a lot of prejudices about each other and they definitely could benefit from some broader perspectives. And, to an extent, Kaladin has been getting that perspective in his dealings with other light-eyes that have defied his prejudices (e.g. Adolin and Shallan). Laral may have that same opportunity once they are evacuated and come into contact with people from other regions and, hopefully, they will be able to rebuild their friendship in a healthy manner. But I stand firm in my belief that they would be disastrous as a romantic couple.

[DarthHoid]

19 minutes ago, dgreene196 said:

Are all Radiants broken?  It certainly seems to be true for many of all key characters, but certainly not all.

Its mentioned as a possibility, which makes sense to me but that of course doesn't make it canon. But broken can probably mean many different things. The main characters appear to be broken in ways very relative to our own world, but their may be other interpretations of broken. Possibly even just self perception, which could open it up to the entire of humanity.

Seems like Singers/Listeners are complete opposite, since they seem to be so in tune with one another, part of a greater whole. Though individual Singers like Eshonai and Venli seem to distinguish themselves as separate, possibly adding to Broken theory.

[Subvisual Haze]

Laral is Kaladin's childhood friend.  The fact that he hasn't had any vaguely sexual thoughts about her yet pretty strongly indicates he will never regard her as anything more than a sister/friend.

[snoopy]

I just read through most of the chapter 2/3 discussion board of reddit, and I would say that any hope of a Kaladin romance in this book (with anyone!) is more or less crushed based on comments by Brandon himself (u/mistborn), and comments by beta reader and the real-life Lyn, who the book character is named after (reddit user u/kaladin_stormblessed). 

I don't know how to get stuff copy and pasted from reddit to format correctly, but here we go.  For example, when discussing the Lyn/Kaladin romance, we have:

 

Quote

Kaladin_Stormblessed, 158 points·10 hours ago

You have no idea how long I have been waiting to actually be able to discuss this.

I feel bad for Kal, but I really don’t think he’s emotionally stable enough for a lasting romantic relationship yet. I hope he finds someone eventually though! Poor thing could use some good old-fashioned happiness for a change.

--------------

TheChairmann, 77 points·10 hours ago

 

Just to make sure, you're the one Lyn got her name from, right?

--------------

 

Kaladin_Stormblessed, 70 points·10 hours ago

Yup.

And later on:

Quote

aharietiam, 33 points·9 hours ago

Honestly I’m not sure if Kaladin could really be in a healthy relationship right now so I’m not really blaming Lyn but it sure is enjoyable to poke fun about it.

 

-------------

Kaladin_Stormblessed, 45 points·9 hours ago

For sure, I 100% agree with you. And I knew the teasing was coming, so it’s all good. See, u/Mistborn ? I told you!

-----------

 

mistborn, Author, 38 points·3 hours ago

Yup. You're a champ for letting me do this.

For what it's worth, I also agree with the poster above. Kaladin just isn't ready for this kind of relationship yet.

 

Ie Brandon himself says that "Kaladin just isn't ready for this kind of relationship yet."   Hopes quashed......

Edited July 29, 2020 by snoopy
typo

[Eluvianii]

29 minutes ago, snoopy said:

Ie Brandon himself says that "Kaladin just isn't ready for this kind of relationship yet."   Hopes quashed......

I'm a patient shipper.

[Greywatch]

What's canon got to do with shipping?

[Karger]

2 hours ago, Greywatch said:

What does a cannon got to do with shipping?

Love and war go together...

[Adolinalsium]

On 7/26/2020 at 3:09 PM, snoopy said:

 

I agree about Kaladin+Shallan.  Oathbringer was painful for me to read because of how all of the foreshadowing was wasted between Shallan and Kaladin.  There is a WoB quote that the romance arcs are supposed to mirror that of previous characters (Dalinar+Navani+Gavilar+Evie).  In the prologue of RoW Navani says she loved both Gavilar and Dalinar, but that everyone knew she would choose Gavilar because of his position, and that Dalinar's intensity scared her.  I think it was the same for Shallan.  She loved both Adolin and Kaladin, but was always going to choose Adolin for his position, and that Kaladin's intensity scared her.  I have taken that to mean that Shallan and Kaladin will end up together in later books (but not book 4).  

I also think Jasnah is out because of her stated smaller arc in this book.  I don't know that Jasnah in a romance would be believable to me anyway unless I could get in her head, because she hasn't seemed interested in romance thus far.  And we aren't going to get much of her thoughts until the back 5 books. 

I think that (Kaladin+Laral+Tarah+?) Could be a thing maybe with Szeth it something. But ever since WoK I've been all for kalaral it just seems like something Kaladin needs to get the for the 4th or 5th ideal and they for Eachother well.

[Adolinalsium]

Kaladin does need to change first, but maybe soon RoW will be like and there are six more books counting RoW.

[Harbour]

Quote

Moash patted Kaladin on the shoulder:
"The path is clear, bro. Go for it".

Now that would be quality in-universe crem joke.

[agrabes]

14 hours ago, snoopy said:

I just read through most of the chapter 2/3 discussion board of reddit, and I would say that any hope of a Kaladin romance in this book (with anyone!) is more or less crushed based on comments by Brandon himself (u/mistborn), and comments by beta reader and the real-life Lyn, who the book character is named after (reddit user u/kaladin_stormblessed). 

I don't know how to get stuff copy and pasted from reddit to format correctly, but here we go.  For example, when discussing the Lyn/Kaladin romance, we have:

 

And later on:

 

Ie Brandon himself says that "Kaladin just isn't ready for this kind of relationship yet."   Hopes quashed......

Thanks for posting this, I don't usually check the Reddit discussion threads.  I kind of got the same feeling from the scene in Ch. 2.  The only thing I would add is that these comments from Sanderson and the real life Lyn are based on what we as readers know now.  It might be that later on we'll see Kaladin do some emotional healing during RoW and be ready for a relationship in Book 5. 

16 hours ago, Starla said:

I know Kaladin has a lot of work to do before he can enter into a healthy stable relationship, and I look forward to seeing him (hopefully) work through some of his issues with survivors guilt, depression, and PTSD in the coming book. However a relationship is a two way street, and I would also love to see a potential mate try to understand him as well, and to appreciate and accept him for who he is. Of all of the people we have seen him be interested in: Laral, Tarah, and Shallan, I don't think any of them have taken the time to truly understand where he is coming from. He is driven by the need to protect people and it motivates every aspect of his life, every decision he makes. It was what attracted Syl to find him out of "millions and millions" of people and made him the first Windrunner in 2000 years. It has helped him protect hundreds or thousands of people over the years, saving countless lives. I see it as a calling for him that he can't ignore and just put aside for the typical wife-and-kids lifestyle.

For example, Tarah seemed to hope he would leave his squad in the army to follow her to her new job, where he would most likely be a house guard for Sadeas. I know it's a romantic idea to drop everything and follow the girl, but I can't imagine Kaladin finding any lasting fulfillment or purpose in that situation. Tarah said he needed to be there "for the living," but isn't that what he was doing for all of the kids who he trained and protected so that they could live? I don't think she understood how important that was to him if she expected him to drop those kids to follow her. 

Even Shallan, who he opened up to in the chasm and told his story about being a slave and bridgemen, who also has her own fair share of trauma and thus should relate, didn't seem to care much or try to see his perspective on things. She insults him on a regular basis, including the snarky comment she made in Kholinar: “At least my soldiers knew when to get away from the warcamps, as opposed to just standing around letting people fling arrows at them.” Those insults hurt, as he notes in his inner monologue in that same chapter, but she doesn't seem to notice. I think both Kaladin and Shallan would both need to shift their perspective to have a deep and lasting relationship (as friends at this point). They are both coming from opposite ends of the spectrum of coping mechanisms. I hope they can do this because I like their interactions when they aren't misunderstanding each other.

So for Laral, I think the same two-way understanding would be required if anything developed with them. Just as he would need to push past his preconceived notions about her involvement with Roshone, her perceived callousness about Tien, or her eye color, she would also need to make an effort to listen to his story with some compassion, to try to understand what he's been through, and to see how important it is for him to help and protect people. It's part of who he is and I doubt it will change any time soon, so she would need to accept it as part of him not get frustrated at him for being passionate about his work. If Laral has a similar passion about her own work (which she seems to from the little we've seen of her), then they might be able to meet in the middle and make something work. 

 

Awesome post and you're totally right.  Kaladin does have his failings, but from what we know all the women in his life so far have kind of expected him to come 70/30 and haven't tried to really understand his side of things.  We know the most about his relationship with Shallan.  I think in that case, it's partly his fault that while he does open up to her my memory of the scene was that he still kept certain secrets from her because at the time neither knew the other was a Radiant and were afraid of saying anything that might let that secret go.  I think she really did make a genuine effort to understand him during that chasm scene.  But afterwards, I think if you read between the lines, she feels guilty about having any kind of feelings for Kaladin.  It's like a double taboo for her - not only is she already engaged to somebody else, he's from a lower social class and marrying Kaladin would result in financial ruin for her family.  So, she tries to bury it, shifting it to her other personas and trying to act outwardly mean toward him so that people won't think she is into him.  She does that mostly for herself and for Adolin's sake.  So I don't totally blame her for that behavior in the same way as I would if it was just a straight up "courtship" between him and her.  It's still not good, but she's in a conflicted situation so I cut her some slack.  

My pet theory with Tarah is that we only see Kaladin's side of the story there.  She did ask him to leave his life as a soldier behind and come with her to her new job.  But, maybe she was secretly hoping he would ask her to stay with him?  It's not an uncommon plot device at least, whether it's something that would happen in the real world or not I'm not sure.  If they meet up again, she might be like "Hey dummy, I really liked you and if you'd asked me to stay with you we might still be together."

So here's hoping Kaladin finds the right one who is willing to meet him in the middle.  It could be Laral and I think it would be really fun if they got together, but like I said above probably not in this book.  Maybe they become friends again in this book though.  She's stayed in the story so far, so it makes me feel like she still has a big role to play.

[+robardin]

This is not so much a question about Kaladin + Laral (Laradin? Kalaral?), so much as about Laral herself on her own. For all the talk about what Order Lirin or Hesina might best be matched with, it's Laral I've got my eye on as a potential Radiant.

What we see of her in singer-controlled Hearthstone early in RoW is pretty interesting. She's as strong willed, determined, and self-possessed as a water carrier as she was as the lady of the manor in Oathbringer when Kaladin first returned to Hearthstone. She's enough of an underground leader type to be in cahoots with Lirin (and evidently, Dalinar and Co.) about using Hearthstone as a staging area to extract the Herdazian general.

It's not clear, but it sure seemed like she intentionally used her husband Roshone (who we finally learn has a first name of Toralin!) as an embarrassing distraction, the former citylord turned into a lame, drunken crem-scraper. For his sake I hope he was in on the plan, but I suspect not - that he is no more than as he seemed.

It's also interesting how the Fused have allowed humans to continue living and working in communities like Hearthstone, when the Fused have a stated goal of wiping out humankind from Roshar, even with a war still going on for control. And by all we see, they are treated with more dignity than the singers had been as "parshmen" and "parshwomen".

[+Q10fanatic]

17 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Laral is Kaladin's childhood friend.  The fact that he hasn't had any vaguely sexual thoughts about her yet pretty strongly indicates he will never regard her as anything more than a sister/friend.

I don't think this is correct, or at least that's not how I interpreted it. In the flashback where he spars with the bigger boy, Brandon writes, in Kaladin's voice, "His thoughts about her had been complicated lately" and then teenage Kal thinks about how he understands what's happening to his body in puberty because of his medical studies. In another flashback, where he goes to Roshone's manor with his father, he sees Laral in the kitchens and is taken aback by how beautiful she is.

I think that's enough to confidently say that Kaladin was attracted to her when they were young. I think they both had a major crush on each other and Kaladin was clearly trying to work through that when he met in OB.

Given Brandon's comments on Reddit, I'm not sure we'll see him in a relationship in RoW but I think there is a narrative foundation for one between him and Laral.

[+robardin]

18 minutes ago, Q10fanatic said:

Given Brandon's comments on Reddit, I'm not sure we'll see him in a relationship in RoW but I think there is a narrative foundation for one between him and Laral.

Yeah, I don't think it's burgeoning in the current narrative, but I would agree the foundation is still there.

Not just because of a long-ago adolescent mutual attraction, but their temperaments appear to match in intensity and focus. With Kaladin's intense personality and tendency to over-protect, I think that would have been bad for a union with Shallan in the long term - a romantic fling with Veil being about the limit of where that would have ended up (while acknowledging that Veil is an aspect of Shallan's).

He's also got a lot of hero-worship going on towards him from the folks in Dalinarland, which I think could also have been a factor in his failed relationship with Lyn.

Laral will stand up for herself to Kaladin, Legendary Radiant Stormblessed or not, and whether or not he realizes it, that is something that has to be there for a healthy relationship of equals.

[Rainier]

On 7/27/2020 at 7:24 PM, agrabes said:

The biggest barrier to this kind of thing is Kaladin himself.  I don't see him as the type who could get married for something other than what he considered genuine love.

I certainly don't think Kaladin has any of the fondness for Laral that he used to have. After all, Laral spurned him after Wistiow died. If she comes crawling back, I don't think Kaladin will turn her away, but I can't see him embracing her with open arms. No, Kaladin will either hold a grudge, or feel simply nothing for her, having let go of those feelings long ago.

I suppose I could see Laral being the Evi in this story, which means she's not going to have much of a happy ending.

[dgreene196]

2 hours ago, Rainier said:

I certainly don't think Kaladin has any of the fondness for Laral that he used to have. After all, Laral spurned him after Wistiow died. If she comes crawling back, I don't think Kaladin will turn her away, but I can't see him embracing her with open arms. No, Kaladin will either hold a grudge, or feel simply nothing for her, having let go of those feelings long ago.

I suppose I could see Laral being the Evi in this story, which means she's not going to have much of a happy ending.

I don’t think we know enough to such much of anything, other than Laral is a leader of his hometown community, he had something of a crush on her, and, at least for part of his childhood recognized that she was seen as a potential spouse for him by his parents.  As of Oathbringer, he’s pretty sure it would never have worked out - and he has more supporting evidence for that viewpoint than conflicting evidence (all of which it is in his nature to ignore).

Any interactions we see in the evacuation of Hearthstone and its aftermath will primarily be in their respective roles as Hearthstone’s leader and the Windrunner commander.  If we see undertones of more personal interaction (mention of Tien, acknowledgement of her husband’s demise, wistful remembrances of the past), I don’t think they’ll be a significant focus.  More interesting would be them building something new and using the other as a resource, as a colleague.  That could be interesting as the story progresses beyond RoW.  Even if it wasn’t romantic, Kaladin could use someone who can see him as he is, but remember him as he was, and be practical and caring.  But maybe not his mom.

I think Kaladin could use that support, and Laral may need help learning to navigate Urithiru and a world where she’s the leader of a group of refugees.  We don’t have many female characters that aren’t scholars or Radiants.  Do we have any, other than Rysn?

[+Wax]

Methinks Laral will die or be instrumental with Kaladin’s next oath.

 

[Rainier]

3 hours ago, Wax said:

Methinks Laral will die or be instrumental with Kaladin’s next oath.

I'm inclined to agree, although I'm guessing Brandon is aware of the woman-in-a-refrigerator trope and will avoid it. Still, I can't help but think with Roshone dead in front of Kal by the hands of his current prisoner, there's going to be some grief and angst from Kaladin that he couldn't save him.

[dgreene196]

6 minutes ago, Rainier said:

I'm inclined to agree, although I'm guessing Brandon is aware of the woman-in-a-refrigerator trope and will avoid it. Still, I can't help but think with Roshone dead in front of Kal by the hands of his current prisoner, there's going to be some grief and angst from Kaladin that he couldn't save him.

There may be.  Moash may also decide he has a score to settle with Laral as Roshone's widow.  For that same person to be attached to Kaladin's past?  There's all kinds of potential psychological warfare that could go on there...I do want to know what Moash is planning when he gives himself up.

That's why I do think we'll see more of Laral in this book.

[Jenet]

I admit that I was diappointed that Rand al Thor and Egwene did not find back to each other, so I was a bit happy when I realized that Laral turned out to be such a sensible woman. What Kaladin needs is a girlfriend who is down to earth and able to stand up to him. But who knows what happens in love?

[+Oltux72]

18 hours ago, dgreene196 said:

Any interactions we see in the evacuation of Hearthstone and its aftermath will primarily be in their respective roles as Hearthstone’s leader and the Windrunner commander.

There no longer is a Hearthstone to lead. That they will leave small groups to be led by some random aristocrat in Urithiru looks rather unlikely.

 

[dgreene196]

22 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

There no longer is a Hearthstone to lead. That they will leave small groups to be led by some random aristocrat in Urithiru looks rather unlikely.

 

I'm not sure that a lighteyes in the chain of command who (at one point) had a spanreed directly to the Queen's ardent, as well as has been in communication with a key member of the military is necessarily a random aristocrat.  Plus, Hearthstone is the first attempt by the coalition forces to rescue an entire village from conquered territory (or reconquered territory, rather).  They may prefer to keep them together under a leader they know, with Laral reporting to Jasnah or some other underling.  As a town in the Sadeas princedom, it's safe to guess they won't drop them off at Ialai's warcamp...

Of course, I could be totally wrong.  Which means the book has subverted my expectations.  At which point I will slow clap Brandon Sanderson in my head while continuing to read.