Laral + Kaladin

[Subvisual Haze]

Looking forward to Kal aggressively flirting with Laral over Roshone's still warm corpse.

[Karger]

30 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Looking forward to Kal aggressively flirting with Laral over Roshone's still warm corpse.

I would hope that Kaladin is a little more sensitive then that.

[USS bridge four]

14 minutes ago, Karger said:

I would hope that Kaladin is a little more sensitive then that.

How about unintentional flirting with Laral. 

[agrabes]

3 hours ago, Karger said:

She seems a bit to practical for that.  That is why I, Syl and many others like her so much.  She is one of the few people who really gets that under it all Kaladin is just a grouchy farm boy who wants to be left alone to do some kind of practical retentive work.

#Single Heroes.

There are practical reasons for her to pursue him too.  He's rich, powerful and has a higher rank than her now.  In terms of sheer practicality it's logical for her to pursue him even if she has absolutely no sexual or romantic desire for him.  She'd be happy if he was off flying around trying to save the world while she stayed home and ran what she saw as her estate and lands.  I doubt she has/had much romantic love for Roshone.  She would at least have to have more respect for Kaladin as a person.  And who knows, if she tries to get him to marry her for political/financial reasons, then maybe they'd develop a romantic relationship too.  The biggest barrier to this kind of thing is Kaladin himself.  I don't see him as the type who could get married for something other than what he considered genuine love.

That's why I think there's a decent chance there will be at least some movement on this ship.  But then, I like this kind of thing.  

[Karger]

2 minutes ago, agrabes said:

That's why I think there's a decent chance there will be at least some movement on this ship.  But then, I like this kind of thing.  

I should have added that we also like because she is independent.  She is willing to solve her own problems.  I love how she reacts to the idea of being rescued. 

Edited July 28, 2020 by Karger

[agrabes]

Just now, Karger said:

I should have added that we also like because she is independent.  She is willing to solve her own problems.  I love how she reacts to the idea of being rescued. 

Just saying, still doesn't preclude her pursuing Kaladin.  It didn't preclude her from pursuing a marriage to Roshone...  She did what was necessary for her own political power and what was likely best for her town/people.  She doesn't want to be rescued, which I love too.  But this would not be her being rescued by Kaladin.  This would be her hunting him down like a prize boar.

It may never happen, but it wouldn't be out of character for her to see the opportunity with Kaladin as a single, powerful and high ranking man that she has a connection to and go for it.  She might sleep in a separate bedroom from him after it's done, but it would make total sense.  Think of the good she could do with the resources he has, but doesn't use.  Of course, as competent as she is she may just rise up on her own and get noticed too.

Another real possibility is that Lirin may die in the early parts of RoW.  I could easily see the two of them at least getting a closer or repaired friendship as they both deal with grief.  It would be a lot like the lesson Shallan taught Kaladin - when he understands someone has felt the same things he has but reacted totally differently, that is when he can really learn and grow as a person.  And Laral deals with her grief much more healthily than Shallan.  Both have suffered similar trauma - loss of both parents and really messed up home life.

[+eveorjoy]

I like the idea of a Kalaral pairing. However, I don't like the idea of just because her husband is dead, Kaladin can start flirting with her. The situation is more complex than that.

Before Kaladin can court Laral, he has to deal with his own issues first. He lost Tarah because he focused too much on saving people, and how losing anyone hurt him. It is a good trait to take responsibility, but because of Kal's need to help everybody: he wasn't able to help Elhokar, he had a mental breakdown in the middle of a battle, and he still has not sworn that 4th ideal. His problems make him not a good match for anyone right now, which is one of the reasons Kal and Shallan wouldn't work. I want Kaladin to end up with someone, but he needs to deal with the wars he is fighting internally and externally first.

As for Laral, even if she wasn't deeply in love with Roshone, she did at least sympathize with him. Remember the tongue lashing she gave Kaladin in OB when Kaladin insulted Roshone. I think considering the woman she is, she would respectfully mourn Roshone for a time. This could actually help the relationship. If Laral is near Kaladin while he is trying to deal with his problems, she can be his friend and that could blossom into something in time. The one plus Kaladin had right now in maybe attracting Laral's attention is that Laral still admires war heroes, though she seemed more impressed with the Herdazain Mink instead of Kal. Also, she has people to lead herself. She might not have time for romance even after mourning Roshone.

Could Kalaral happen? Yes and maybe in this book. However, it needs to be a slow and natural process, and most of the growth would need to be on Kaladin's part so he could handle a relationship. Personally I think if Kalaral happens it will be in the next book or the back five, However, we might see the beginning sprouts of the relationship in this book.

[+Oltux72]

2 hours ago, snoopy said:

Normally, a widow would need a considerable amount of time before being able to move on romantically.

 Romantical? I am afraid the idea that all bonds of matrimony, let me put it that way, on a devastated and poor world like Roshar are determined by romantical motivations primarily, is wrong. Does Laral have children? Regardless, she is now a homeless, pennyless refugee on the run from the occupying authorities. And apparently she does have a certain ruthless practicality in such affairs.

[+eveorjoy]

4 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

 Romantical? I am afraid the idea that all bonds of matrimony, let me put it that way, on a devastated and poor world like Roshar are determined by romantical motivations primarily, is wrong. Does Laral have children? Regardless, she is now a homeless, pennyless refugee on the run from the occupying authorities. And apparently she does have a certain ruthless practicality in such affairs.

Yes, very true. But Kaladin may not be the most practical choice. If it is a matter of needing security, she has plenty of options once Kaladin takes her back to Urithtu.

However, considering how the Roshar is by RoW, I don't think matrimony will be a concern. Women can do a lot on their own in Roshar. She doesn't need to remarry to solve her problems of homeless or lack of funds. In fact, if she is half as capable as both Kaladin and Lirin see her as being, she doesn't need to marry Kal for his status or money. If Laral does end up with Kal it will be for romantic reasons.

[snoopy]

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

 Romantical? I am afraid the idea that all bonds of matrimony, let me put it that way, on a devastated and poor world like Roshar are determined by romantical motivations primarily, is wrong. Does Laral have children? Regardless, she is now a homeless, pennyless refugee on the run from the occupying authorities. And apparently she does have a certain ruthless practicality in such affairs.

Laral's first marriage was not founded on romance/love.  Many marriages on Roshar are political or for personal gain/convenience.  However Laral is not important enough to be set up on a political arranged marriage with Kaladin. I don't see a plausible marriage between Kal + Laral that isn't because they fell in love.  Kaladin + Jasnah could conceivably be political, but not Kalaral.  As a "homeless, pennyless refugee" as you put it,  she may have incentive to move forward quickly, but I think her physical/monetary situation can be improved without a marriage with Kaladin.

[Honorless]

I do not ship it. 

[+Oltux72]

37 minutes ago, snoopy said:

However Laral is not important enough to be set up on a political arranged marriage with Kaladin.

It is very doubtful whether a man like Kaladin is aware of his own political worth. Or cares about it, for that matter. And it is hard on a man to be alone for years. Especially during times of blood and death.

37 minutes ago, snoopy said:

I don't see a plausible marriage between Kal + Laral that isn't because they fell in love.  Kaladin + Jasnah could conceivably be political, but not Kalaral.  As a "homeless, pennyless refugee" as you put it,  she may have incentive to move forward quickly, but I think her physical/monetary situation can be improved without a marriage with Kaladin.

Improved, yes. Improved to the same degree with realistic prospects, no. She would be in effect a general's wife again. The chances for such a position by any other way are dim.

[book.spren]

I can't ship Kalaral.

I don't think Kaladin will ever get past the fact that Laral married the man who sent Tien to die. Or the fact that she, in essence, defended Roshone's actions in OB. 

And even if he did get past all of that and there was a romantic interest, there is still the very large issue of him likely feeling like she was only interested in him now that he's a Radiant and of higher rank than she. She, IMO, made herself out to be someone only interested in advancing her station and wasn't interested in Kaladin when he was just a lowly surgeon's apprentice. She may have grown up a great deal after Kaladin left and after she married Roshone, but it doesn't erase her history with them.

[USS bridge four]

36 minutes ago, book.spren said:

I can't ship Kalaral.

I don't think Kaladin will ever get past the fact that Laral married the man who sent Tien to die. Or the fact that she, in essence, defended Roshone's actions in OB. 

And even if he did get past all of that and there was a romantic interest, there is still the very large issue of him likely feeling like she was only interested in him now that he's a Radiant and of higher rank than she. She, IMO, made herself out to be someone only interested in advancing her station and wasn't interested in Kaladin when he was just a lowly surgeon's apprentice. She may have grown up a great deal after Kaladin left and after she married Roshone, but it doesn't erase her history with them.

I don’t understand this interpretation well and I’m not the best person with words so hopefully this doesn’t sound like I’m attacking you or people of this interpretation . From my standpoint she made the best she could of a really bad situation her parents are both dead(I dont remember if her moms dead so this might be wrong) and all of a sudden the kids she has grown up with  father has just pissed off the new lord who you are living with and who wants you to marry his son and you have little to no agency in this situation. So I don’t blame her for the scene in the kitchen because she had to put up the front to live. I can’t blame someone for protecting their spouse even if that spouse is a little man whose horrible. She also doesn’t seem to interested in advancing her station like that at least. She’s independent and strong willed and now that she has had more agency is able to be more like she was before Roshone arrived to town IMO. Also I always read that she was interested in Kal before Roshone came to town. She made the best of the situation and allowed the town to survive. I believe Kal will have a relationship with her Wether she becomes a romantic interest or just an old friend. Anyways hope this make sense since this sounds like a mess and just some of my thoughts on Laral. 

[ThurgreatMarshall]

With this morning's chapter discussing Lyn breaking up with Kaladin, I think we're heading towards Laral.

[agrabes]

52 minutes ago, book.spren said:

I can't ship Kalaral.

I don't think Kaladin will ever get past the fact that Laral married the man who sent Tien to die. Or the fact that she, in essence, defended Roshone's actions in OB. 

And even if he did get past all of that and there was a romantic interest, there is still the very large issue of him likely feeling like she was only interested in him now that he's a Radiant and of higher rank than she. She, IMO, made herself out to be someone only interested in advancing her station and wasn't interested in Kaladin when he was just a lowly surgeon's apprentice. She may have grown up a great deal after Kaladin left and after she married Roshone, but it doesn't erase her history with them.

Totally valid thoughts.  I agree this stuff is a major hangup for Kaladin.  What you've described is totally how I think Kaladin sees her right now.  My personal belief is that Kaladin is seeing her through his anti-lighteyes lens.  If we saw her side of things, we would realize she was forced to do a lot of those things against her will.  Allowing Tien to go serve was something even Amaram opposed.  As a young girl at the time, she probably didn't have enough influence yet to stop it.  I'm sure she would have wanted to.  She had to publicly say that she agreed with Roshone's actions because she has to present the public image that she's in full lockstep with Roshone.  She can't undermine him, or they both lose power and authority.  If she had discussed it in private and felt she could trust Kaladin, she would probably tell another story of how things are much more complicated than just agreeing/disagreeing.  I think there could be a sequence between Kaladin and Laral similar to Kaladin and Shallan - where he realizes he's always assumed the worst from her and she tells him in no uncertain terms that he's being an idiot and she's a person too who tries to do her best but that sometimes has negative side effects.  But that's just my theory, reading between the lines.  I think this could easily happen, or could easily not happen.

I think after today's chapter and learning that Kaladin had another short lived relationship probably killed by him not dedicating any time or energy to it, I'm almost starting to buy into the forever single Kaladin theory.  I think he either figures something out about this stuff in RoW, or he fully gives up.  It seems like the pieces are there for him to make progress - Laral and possibly Tarah in proximity to scold him over his past mistakes and maybe teach him a thing or two about being a more well rounded person.  

[book.spren]

@USS bridge four

I see your points and I don't disagree that there will be some kind of relationship between them; I just don't think it will be romantic at all. I can see them becoming cautious friends but I think there is just too much baggage there for it to be romantic in any way.

And, I would argue about her agency both before Kaladin left Hearthstone and after. When she got engaged to Rillir she seemed to break off her friendship with Kaladin--it felt like she just wanted to pretend that she didn't know him. And in OB it felt like she was placing all the blame for Tien's death on Lirin when she said (paraphrased) "well, what did you expect Roshone to do when a community member in good standing didn't agree with him?" She was, for Hearthstone, a high-ranking lighteyes and could have argued to both Rillir and Roshone that Lirin and his family were advocates for the community and were dedicated to helping everyone. Instead, she kept her mouth shut in order to not jeopardize her own position. 

 

14 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Totally valid thoughts.  I agree this stuff is a major hangup for Kaladin.  What you've described is totally how I think Kaladin sees her right now.  My personal belief is that Kaladin is seeing her through his anti-lighteyes lens.  If we saw her side of things, we would realize she was forced to do a lot of those things against her will.  Allowing Tien to go serve was something even Amaram opposed.  As a young girl at the time, she probably didn't have enough influence yet to stop it.  I'm sure she would have wanted to.  She had to publicly say that she agreed with Roshone's actions because she has to present the public image that she's in full lockstep with Roshone.  She can't undermine him, or they both lose power and authority.  If she had discussed it in private and felt she could trust Kaladin, she would probably tell another story of how things are much more complicated than just agreeing/disagreeing.  I think there could be a sequence between Kaladin and Laral similar to Kaladin and Shallan - where he realizes he's always assumed the worst from her and she tells him in no uncertain terms that he's being an idiot and she's a person too who tries to do her best but that sometimes has negative side effects.  But that's just my theory, reading between the lines.  I think this could easily happen, or could easily not happen.

I can see this. I get how Laral would/could have been scared about her position, her future, and her family's future so much so that she felt like she couldn't do anything about it. However, with Kaladin's sense of honor--do the right thing, no matter what--I don't know how he would accept that reasoning. I don't know that he will ever accept the idea of putting someone else in danger just because you're scared. 

Sidenote but slightly related--I feel like the fourth oath for him is going to be something about protecting himself even at the expense of others.

[Greywatch]

I get Laral's reasons, but understanding why doesn't make me like her any better. I just do not like her very much, and just... don't care when she's on screen. I'm not sure what would have to change to make me like her better, but it would have to be a lot.

[Harbour]

To me the mention of Kaladin and Lyn breaking up sounds more like a "No" for Laral and Kaladin ship, in addition to sudden death of Roshone. Would be weird to develop it now, after mention of how bad Kaladin took on breaking up. Doubt Brandon will dive into shipping, at least in Part 1. It seems like crem gonna hit the fan at any moment, leaving no place for romance.

[agrabes]

3 hours ago, book.spren said:

 

I can see this. I get how Laral would/could have been scared about her position, her future, and her family's future so much so that she felt like she couldn't do anything about it. However, with Kaladin's sense of honor--do the right thing, no matter what--I don't know how he would accept that reasoning. I don't know that he will ever accept the idea of putting someone else in danger just because you're scared. 

Sidenote but slightly related--I feel like the fourth oath for him is going to be something about protecting himself even at the expense of others.

Your mileage may vary on this, but I think understanding Laral's perspective could be a path to further character development for Kaladin.  Let's look at what she's done:

Starts as friends with Kaladin - their fathers doing a little matchmaking.

Her father dies, and is replaced by Roshone - likely leading to trauma.  Her mother, I believe, was already dead.  She's now lost both parents and is now the ward of a stranger, who we know is generally a bad person.

She is forced to become engaged to the son of the man who replaced her father.  Roshone arranges this because he needs to tie his family into the rulership of Hearthstone.  She's pretty much isolated at the manor and can only talk to Roshone and his family, who probably tell her all about how (Roshone thinks) Kaladin's father was an evil man who cheated her out of her inheritance.  I think it's likely that unbeknownst to Kaladin and therefore us, but she probably fought back against this as much as she could at least early on.

At some point, she decides there is no way for her to get out of marrying Roshone's son.  She decides to come to terms with it and make the best of it.  Yes, it means alienating herself from Kaladin and his family.  It means that on the outside, she has to appear to be one of the family with Roshone.  She can't publicly defy him because it won't be successful and because she would likely be punished.  She has to live the life she has now.  No use in futilely trying to resist.  At least Roshone's son is close to her age.  At least she's probably smarter and better than him and can probably control him once they both come of age.

Her fiance dies in a hunting accident.  Now, the one person she may have had at least some bond with is gone.  She's forced to marry her creepy surrogate father.  She's forced to make the best of the situation, or go insane.  I couldn't imagine that kind of choice being forced on me.  Some time passes, and she's now an adult and managed to establish herself as the real authority in Hearthstone.  She's done well and the town is prospering.

Kaladin suddenly appears, pitying her and also pissed off at her for all this.  In Kaladin's mind she's done it all for selfish reasons, hung him and his family out to dry.  And she gets royally pissed, because he understands absolutely nothing about it.  

Laral did everything she did because she had to, in order to survive.  And she not only survived the extreme trauma that she was put through, but she has thrived.  And she has done well not only for herself, but she's improved life for her whole village.  Kaladin sees this as a negative because he still can't look past the surface level: she's a lighteyes so she must have cut him loose the instant it was inconvenient and she's been sitting in her ivory tower counting her money while others work ever since.  Another thing I'm not sure Kaladin really knows is that his father did basically steal the money.  So Laral has somewhat of a legitimate beef against them.

Kaladin started spouting off about how Shallan had such an easy life and she put him in his place.  And he listened and learned to respect her for it, because once she opened his eyes to it he could see what she'd been through.  I think we're going to see a repeat with Laral here.  He's going to suddenly realize that far from living in the life of luxury, she's basically been living through a psychological horror movie.  He just hasn't had that conversation with her yet.  And when he does - it may help him understand that lighteyes are just people.  He may learn a way to deal with his grief and pain.  He admired Shallan's ability to just pretend the pain didn't exist, but he couldn't do that.  I think Laral will teach him her way of surviving trauma - to hold it at bay and slowly chip away when you can and undermine the people who are abusing you until suddenly you have the upper hand.

 

[Eluvianii]

15 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Your mileage may vary on this, but I think understanding Laral's perspective could be a path to further character development for Kaladin.  Let's look at what she's done:

Starts as friends with Kaladin - their fathers doing a little matchmaking.

Her father dies, and is replaced by Roshone - likely leading to trauma.  Her mother, I believe, was already dead.  She's now lost both parents and is now the ward of a stranger, who we know is generally a bad person.

She is forced to become engaged to the son of the man who replaced her father.  Roshone arranges this because he needs to tie his family into the rulership of Hearthstone.  She's pretty much isolated at the manor and can only talk to Roshone and his family, who probably tell her all about how (Roshone thinks) Kaladin's father was an evil man who cheated her out of her inheritance.  I think it's likely that unbeknownst to Kaladin and therefore us, but she probably fought back against this as much as she could at least early on.

At some point, she decides there is no way for her to get out of marrying Roshone's son.  She decides to come to terms with it and make the best of it.  Yes, it means alienating herself from Kaladin and his family.  It means that on the outside, she has to appear to be one of the family with Roshone.  She can't publicly defy him because it won't be successful and because she would likely be punished.  She has to live the life she has now.  No use in futilely trying to resist.  At least Roshone's son is close to her age.  At least she's probably smarter and better than him and can probably control him once they both come of age.

Her fiance dies in a hunting accident.  Now, the one person she may have had at least some bond with is gone.  She's forced to marry her creepy surrogate father.  She's forced to make the best of the situation, or go insane.  I couldn't imagine that kind of choice being forced on me.  Some time passes, and she's now an adult and managed to establish herself as the real authority in Hearthstone.  She's done well and the town is prospering.

Kaladin suddenly appears, pitying her and also pissed off at her for all this.  In Kaladin's mind she's done it all for selfish reasons, hung him and his family out to dry.  And she gets royally pissed, because he understands absolutely nothing about it.  

Laral did everything she did because she had to, in order to survive.  And she not only survived the extreme trauma that she was put through, but she has thrived.  And she has done well not only for herself, but she's improved life for her whole village.  Kaladin sees this as a negative because he still can't look past the surface level: she's a lighteyes so she must have cut him loose the instant it was inconvenient and she's been sitting in her ivory tower counting her money while others work ever since.  Another thing I'm not sure Kaladin really knows is that his father did basically steal the money.  So Laral has somewhat of a legitimate beef against them.

Kaladin started spouting off about how Shallan had such an easy life and she put him in his place.  And he listened and learned to respect her for it, because once she opened his eyes to it he could see what she'd been through.  I think we're going to see a repeat with Laral here.  He's going to suddenly realize that far from living in the life of luxury, she's basically been living through a psychological horror movie.  He just hasn't had that conversation with her yet.  And when he does - it may help him understand that lighteyes are just people.  He may learn a way to deal with his grief and pain.  He admired Shallan's ability to just pretend the pain didn't exist, but he couldn't do that.  I think Laral will teach him her way of surviving trauma - to hold it at bay and slowly chip away when you can and undermine the people who are abusing you until suddenly you have the upper hand.

 

This. Oh storms, I would so love to see this. Have my non-existent rep, I ran out already but this would be amazing.

[Karger]

5 hours ago, agrabes said:

I think after today's chapter and learning that Kaladin had another short lived relationship probably killed by him not dedicating any time or energy to it, I'm almost starting to buy into the forever single Kaladin theory.  I think he either figures something out about this stuff in RoW, or he fully gives up.  It seems like the pieces are there for him to make progress - Laral and possibly Tarah in proximity to scold him over his past mistakes and maybe teach him a thing or two about being a more well rounded person.  

I love this but it also makes me even more determined that they do not start a romantic relationship.  If things do start to move in that direction I hope they go slowly.

[Honorless]

Kaladin gave me the impression that he got it that Laral and him were a teenage fancy of one another

[DarthHoid]

Honestly, I don't forsee a relationship in Kaladin's upcoming character development. I'm sure he'll have someone, maybe beyond the scope of the books, between 5 and 6, but I think he's got some work to do on his soul.

Even Shallan probably wouldn't have a romance arc if it wasn't pressed upon her by Jasnah. Radiants are broken people, and broken people are difficult in relationships, especially when they're both broken.

Though I will admit, its definitely more likely for him to end up with someone without Radiance.

[dgreene196]

3 hours ago, agrabes said:

She is forced to become engaged to the son of the man who replaced her father.  Roshone arranges this because he needs to tie his family into the rulership of Hearthstone.  She's pretty much isolated at the manor and can only talk to Roshone and his family, who probably tell her all about how (Roshone thinks) Kaladin's father was an evil man who cheated her out of her inheritance.  I think it's likely that unbeknownst to Kaladin and therefore us, but she probably fought back against this as much as she could at least early on.

...Another thing I'm not sure Kaladin really knows is that his father did basically steal the money.  So Laral has somewhat of a legitimate beef against them.

Two minor points (which I only recall since I just finished my TWoK reread):

• When the citylordship was given to Roshone, Laral received a significant dowry.  Roshone supposedly viewed that dowry as key for the future of his son to address the fall of their family.
• Kaladin definitely knew his father stole the spheres.

Otherwise, I completely agree with your assessment and why Kaladin building/rebuilding a relationship with Laral would be good for him, particularly in helping him broaden his perspectives.  Of course, they can have a non-romantic relationship and achieve much the same.  I think both could certainly benefit from the other's friendship.

Bonus:  Her status as Roshone's wife would cause some murdery feelings in Moash, which could drive all sorts of interesting conflict for Kaladin.