Heliodor value oddity

[ReaderAt2046]

I was looking over the sphere ranks on the Coppermind, and I noticed something odd. Why is it that Heliodor is listed in the lesser tier? If emeralds are the most valuable gem because they can be used to Soulcast grain, then shouldn't heliodors, which can Soulcast edible meat, be in at least the Prime tier with sapphire and amethyst? The rest of the ranks make sense, gems that are rarer or have useful soulcasting properties are high while more common and less useful gems are low, but why is something so useful as meat-creation in the same tier as blood and stone? Is this ever explained?

[+Bzhydack]

15 minutes ago, ReaderAt2046 said:

I was looking over the sphere ranks on the Coppermind, and I noticed something odd. Why is it that Heliodor is listed in the lesser tier? If emeralds are the most valuable gem because they can be used to Soulcast grain, then shouldn't heliodors, which can Soulcast edible meat, be in at least the Prime tier with sapphire and amethyst? The rest of the ranks make sense, gems that are rarer or have useful soulcasting properties are high while more common and less useful gems are low, but why is something so useful as meat-creation in the same tier as blood and stone? Is this ever explained?

Probably because on Roshar meat is much more accesable than grain. Weve seen animals, heardable or huntable. Good example are chulls, they are much bigger than our cows. Animals are also less dependent on Highstorms than plants.

Other answer can be acessability to the stone itself. Heliodor can be more popular than saphire.

Another answer can be that demand for meat is lesser than for Grain (what is logical, in our world is the same) so heliodors are not as needet, because less of them can supply soulcasting. This can be combine with first reason upper.

[+Oltux72]

29 minutes ago, ReaderAt2046 said:

Why is it that Heliodor is listed in the lesser tier? If emeralds are the most valuable gem because they can be used to Soulcast grain, then shouldn't heliodors, which can Soulcast edible meat, be in at least the Prime tier with sapphire and amethyst?

The stuff they make cannot be stored. Nor do we know how much training you need to make edible meat.

[Quantus]

In addition to that, Grain is commonly understood to be a mostly homogeneous much substance.  "Meat" by contrast is well known (especially to less industrialized grocery store societies than ours that mostly do their own butchering) to be real muscles with specific structure and cuts and things, which could limit what form and quantity can be made easily.  That might make it less useful for the sort of mass-production they need use Emeralds and Grain for.  

And I can understand why some like Amethyst would be valued above food, since they can make metal weapons and armor.  Sapphire's value surprises me a bit, unless they need it to freshen the air in some of their massive stone keeps?  Ruby and Zricon too, I would have expected them to be lower since they are far more niche uses.  

But we need to remember that those market values are an aggregation of several factors, and their soulcasting usefulness is only one of them.  Individual colors are also more and less rare than others, based on the species that can produce that type of Gemheart.  One of the reasons Chasmfiends are so prized is that they are reliably Emeralds, but there are other smaller species that they breed and farm for gems.  So some gems may be worth less simply by an overabundance of supply.  Another lesser factor is that the quality of Light they produce is a consideration, which could slightly inflate the value of the clear&bright colors.  

[+Bzhydack]

9 minutes ago, Quantus said:

 

And I can understand why some like Amethyst would be valued above food, since they can make metal weapons and armor.  Sapphire's value surprises me a bit, unless they need it to freshen the air in some of their massive stone keeps?  Ruby and Zricon too, I would have expected them to be lower since they are far more niche uses.  

Sapphire value comes not from usefulnes for soulcasting, but from fact that Sapphires hold the Stormlight the longest from all gemstones. So they are the best source of light during Whip.

Ruby is also very valuable because it part of Heating Fabrials - and need for Heat without smoke in underground shelters is easly understandable.

[Quantus]

38 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Sapphire value comes not from usefulnes for soulcasting, but from fact that Sapphires hold the Stormlight the longest from all gemstones. So they are the best source of light during Whip.

Really?  I entirely missed that, and had no idea that different gem colors had different storage properties.  Do you know where it was referenced?

38 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Ruby is also very valuable because it part of Heating Fabrials - and need for Heat without smoke in underground shelters is easly understandable.

I thought that was a very recent invention?  If so it wouldnt have had time to affect the market that much

[+Bzhydack]

55 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Really?  I entirely missed that, and had no idea that different gem colors had different storage properties.  Do you know where it was referenced?

I remember that, but i would have to search throu all three books to find that, what will take... way too long. Sorry.

And yes, color of gems matters. Sapphire and Ruby are the same mineral.

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

I thought that was a very recent invention?  If so it wouldnt have had time to affect the market that much

You are probably right. Maybe this has something to do with accesability of Rubys or Zircons.

[Quantus]

2 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

I remember that, but i would have to search throu all three books to find that, what will take... way too long. Sorry.

And yes, color of gems matters. Sapphire and Ruby are the same mineral.

Sure, we know color matters in things like fabrials, and we know that chemcial purity, cut, and crystal structure will all effect the amount of time agiven gem can hold stormlight, but I dont recall and cant find anything that any one of the ten relevant gems innately hold Stormlight better or worse than any others.  But if that is true I would be very interested to see the context, because it could have some broad and interesting realmic implications.  

[Elsecaller_17.5]

15 hours ago, Quantus said:

I thought that was a very recent invention?  If so it wouldnt have had time to affect the market that much

They're present in Dalinars flashbacks so I'd say at least 20 years old.

 

13 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Sapphire and Ruby are the same mineral.

This is a moot point because Rosharan gemstones have 0 correlation to earth gemstones. All are more akin to pearls than an actual gem.

[NameIess]

10 hours ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

This is a moot point because Rosharan gemstones have 0 correlation to earth gemstones. All are more akin to pearls than an actual gem.

No, I'm pretty sure they are all like earth gemstones. It is the color that matters.

[Pathfinder]

4 minutes ago, Nameless said:

No, I'm pretty sure they are all like earth gemstones. It is the color that matters.

Yep, its the color

 

Questioner

With the gemstones, we know that the hue seems to matter more than the rarity. Is that somehow tying in to the colors for Warbreaker, and how that stuff works?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that is tying in. Color will be a recurring theme, much as metal will be a recurring theme, as you see different magic systems work. In this case, the color has an affect on the spren and getting a spren trapped in it.

Questioner

So just the color itself?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah the color is the important part. When I was researching Stormlight, I determined that color had to be the point. Because a lot of the gemstones I'm using are molecularly identical.

Questioner

So that was the best way to differentiate?

Brandon Sanderson

So this was the best way to differentiate. But I had already had this as part of the cosmere, that color and the way people perceive color and things like, that were part of it. But getting ten different gemstones that were molecularly different proved to be very difficult and not worth it. If you look, so many of them are just basically the same gemstone with a few impurities. Their crystalline structure is the same.

Idaho Falls signing (July 21, 2018)

[Watchcry]

Heliodore comes from animals.  Any peasant can grow some more by breeding them, meaning that heliodore isn't scarce,  and this not as valuable as other gems.  

Edited July 25, 2020 by Watchcry

[Elsecaller_17.5]

3 hours ago, Nameless said:

No, I'm pretty sure they are all like earth gemstones. It is the color that matters.

They are structurally identical to each other and the color is what makes the difference. I'm just saying that a real world scientist would not look at a Rosharan diamond and identify it as one.

On creation from the coppermind 

Quote

Gemhearts form naturally within some of Roshar's organisms. The crem that falls with Rosharan rains is full of minerals, which the creatures absorb by drinking and then use to grow the gemheart.^[1] Their formation is also influenced by Investiture leaking into the anatomy of certain Rosharan species, creating an effect similar to the formation of atium on Scadrial.^[2]

In WoR gemhearts are described as "bulbous". In WoK "lumpy."

Neither of these, creation or appearance, match real gemstones at all. Finally the WoB states all Rosharan gemstones are structurally identical, but that is not true of all the real world gemstones. For example diamonds and rubies.

 

Edited July 25, 2020 by Elsecaller_17.5

[NameIess]

14 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

In WoR gemhearts are described as "bulbous". In WoK "lumpy."

Neither of these, creation or appearance, match real gemstones at all.

That's uncut gemstones. If you look up pictures of uncut gemstones, they can be lumpy. Further differences could be because Rosharan gemstones aren't usually formed under massive pressure, meaning they will have different shapes.

17 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

Finally the WoB states all Rosharan gemstones are structurally identical, but that is not true of all the real world gemstones. For example diamonds are rubies.

It says a lot of them are identical, not all of them.

[Elsecaller_17.5]

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

That's uncut gemstones. If you look up pictures of uncut gemstones, they can be lumpy.

Picture of uncut emeralds. One could argue lumpy but not bulbous. 

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Further differences could be because Rosharan gemstones aren't usually formed under massive pressure, meaning they will have different shapes.

But that's my point. The lack of pressure wouldn't result in different shapes. It would result in there not being actual gemstones. 

 

[NameIess]

14 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

But that's my point. The lack of pressure wouldn't result in different shapes. It would result in there not being actual gemstones. 

Investiture is involved.

[Elsecaller_17.5]

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Investiture is involved.

Magically created real world gemstones could be correct. I'd also find it very dissatisfying. 

[Pathfinder]

28 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

Magically created real world gemstones could be correct. I'd also find it very dissatisfying. 

Not saying you will like this answer nor that you have to, but here are the WoB on how it works

 

Questioner

Where do gemhearts come from?

Brandon Sanderson

They grow naturally, just like your fingernails grow.

Questioner

Where do they get the resources?

Brandon Sanderson

The rain that falls on Roshar is [hard] water, full of crem that crystalizes. If you drink that water, it gives you the nutrients that you need to make gemhearts.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

 

Questioner

Is it only greatshells that have gemhearts, or do all crustaceans on Roshar have some sort of gem inside? And if it is only greatshells then are their unique decayspren related to this fact?

Brandon:

They're not only greatshells, but not every crustacean has a gemheart, at least not of the style that would be of any relevance to you. Some have the same sort of chemistry going on in their body, they're just too small to have it coalesce into a gemheart. And the gemheart is related to how-- particularly the greatshells, can grow to get so big.

Salt Lake ComicCon FanX 2016 (March 26, 2016)

 

 

Questioner

I was wondering, in Stormlight, what kind of gem the [singer] gemhearts were, or do they just, do they hold Stormlight well?

Brandon Sanderson

So, this is a good question. This is one that people have been asking me since the first book, if they had one, and I've finally kind of confirmed it in book three. So the reason people don't think [singers] have a gemheart is it is milky white, and looks like bone.

Questioner

But aren't their bones red?

Brandon Sanderson

Their bones, well-- Their bones are red-- not completely. If you're going to pull out the bone, what you're going to see-- I'll explain it in the next book. So what you're going to do is, if you break open the bone, you're going to find this white-- It's not marrow but it is, yeah I guess it's marrow. Anyway at the center kind of in their sternum there is a gemheart there, but it is fused to the bone and it is grown into the bone, and you have to kind of snap it open and find it inside, and it kind of just looks like marrow, but there's a gemheart in there. And it kind of relates to some stuff in Dragonsteel that I'm not gonna get into. But you'll see in the next books. But there's a good reason people just don't think that [singers] have a gemheart. 

Questioner

So they must not glow much then, I'm assuming.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, well, it's surrounded by bone. So it's a different special thing. We'll bring it out in the following books. It might not be the next one.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

[+Bzhydack]

17 hours ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

This is a moot point because Rosharan gemstones have 0 correlation to earth gemstones. All are more akin to pearls than an actual gem.

No. This WoB say, that Scadrian Gems have the same properties as Rosharan Gems. And Scadrial definitly has "normal" resources, is very much like Earth, and nothing there have Gemhearts.

[Elsecaller_17.5]

6 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

No. This WoB say, that Scadrian Gems have the same properties as Rosharan Gems. And Scadrial definitly has "normal" resources, is very much like Earth, and nothing there have Gemhearts.

Well I can't say I like the conclusion, but a sincere thank you for the closure.