Who is the worst?

[+eveorjoy]

So it seems like Galivar heard how much the Stormlight Fandom hates Moash and said, "Dalinar, hold my beer."

I really hate Galivar now.

So who do you think is the worst? You can choose someone on the list or add another character in the comments. 

[---]

Gavilar seems to be like Amaram, and if that's the case then he probably had some influence in shaping Amaram, which to me makes him worse.

 

[Harbour]

All four are different types of bad guys.

Moash is different than three other guys. He is bad guy but he is "in your face simple guy" who run around and kills and says "Yes, im a bad guy".

Gavilar is the most scary one. Its really interesting how both Amaram and Sadeas are somewhat look like Gavilar's right and left hands, continuation of his will AND alike him personality wise. All three are manipulative slimy shady bastards, pretending to be the good guys. No wonder they attracted each other and formed coalition.

Amaram is better at pretending.

Gavilar is chillingly creepy and evil in the prologue. Sadeas looks more like his watered down copy or apprentice. Both dont try to pretend that hard as Amaram though.

In terms of who gives me more evil vibes:

1) Gavilar
2) Amaram
3) Sadeas
4) Moash.
 

Edited July 24, 2020 by Harbour

[+Spicker]

I have it as Sadeas right now, but I can easily see Gavilar taking the cake by the end of this. 

[+Oltux72]

4 hours ago, Spicker said:

I have it as Sadeas right now, but I can easily see Gavilar taking the cake by the end of this. 

Sadeas has purpose in his cruelty and never claimed to be different.

Gavilar is mean to his wife and we only have her side of the story. And frankly, Navani was a bit of a golddigger.

Amaram, however, is a liar on top of everything and screwed over a genuine hero.

[Goatbringer]

I think I hate Moash so much because he's a mirror villain to Kaladin. Kaladin drew me into the story in the first place and I've been so invested in his story for the past 10 years. Moash parallels Kaladin's story but does everything wrong. 

[IcaroRibeiro]

Amaran is awful, but also lowkey pathetic. It's hard to give him the crown

Moash is not a good person, but I don't know, I hate him but he feels much more a victim of circumstances and byproduct of society than anything else

Sadeas is bad, but he looks so honesty in his evilness that almost looks almost comic 

Gavillar looks a perfect villain of a fiction series. Unlike the other 3 who are either coward, enduring or humorous this one hit me as straight fearsome. So far he's the only character in Stormlight that really spooky me

 

But so far, the one who has the more loose morals and total lack of ethics are Sadeas and Amaran, I'll vote for Sadeas cause he's a son of a slontze

[Karger]

Moash.  At least the other donkey hats on the vote accomplished something productive.

[Dracnor]

Moash... isn't emotionnally abusive or anthing like that. He sided with Odium, and tried to assassinated the king : that's all. He hasn't been cruel or anything.

For Amaram, I'd say that we don't know enough. How was he with his subordinates ? With his friends of the Sons of Honor ? With Gavilar ? Etc. He did one awfull thing, but it seems that he geniully thought it was for the greater good, and 10ish lives for a greater good can seem not much. As he said to Dalinar, the plateau runs of every highprince were on a total different scale of horror (more death for a lesser cause). Honestly, I'm sure that in another context, dirtying your hands with10 lives for a greater good would be seen as a (dark) hero act.

Gavilar is a threatening jerk with his wife. I want to punch him. But honestly... that's nothing compared to Sadeas who tried to let die thousands of soldiers after having promissed them his help, just to take power for himself (and he did all this while he was quite efficient at manipulating the king for his own needs).

 

TLDR : I hate Gavilar the most, but the worst person is Sadeas

Edited July 24, 2020 by Dracnor
TLDR

[Pathfinder]

48 minutes ago, Dracnor said:

For Amaram, I'd say that we don't know enough. How was he with his subordinates ? With his friends of the Sons of Honor ? With Gavilar ? Etc. He did one awfull thing, but it seems that he geniully thought it was for the greater good, and 10ish lives for a greater good can seem not much. As he said to Dalinar, the plateau runs of every highprince were on a total different scale of horror (more death for a lesser cause). Honestly, I'm sure that in another context, dirtying your hands with10 lives for a greater good would be seen as a (dark) hero act.

Some context on Amaram:

 

Coachdorax

Did you write Amaram as an opposite of Dalinar or was he simply a bad guy meant to spur Kaladin?

Brandon Sanderson

I meant Amaram to be the representation of the corrupt side of the Alethi. Meaning they are all talk and very little heart. Very little of what they say, to the worst of the Alethi, gets to who they really are. They would rather be known as someone honorable than be actually honorable. And this I consider a major problem with their society, and I needed somebody to represent this. Part of it is, to represent a contrast to Kaladin’s ideals. This belief that lighteyes were these paragons of virtue. But I also needed somebody, you may say an opposite to Dalinar. In a way, he is an opposite to Dalinar, but more he just represents Alethi society. And I did want it to be that he wasn’t just all the way corrupt. When he makes his decision in Book One in the flashbacks, he is making a decision. There is a moment where he is considering. By the time you are seeing him in later books, that decision has taken him down a path that leaves him very far from any sort of redemption. But it was a choice. And he wasn’t just corrupt from the get go. But yeah, he represents what I feel would be bad about Alethi society. A kind of honor society that is more about looking honorable than being.

YouTube Livestream 2 (Jan. 20, 2020)

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Dracnor said:

Moash... isn't emotionnally abusive or anthing like that. He sided with Odium, and tried to assassinated the king : that's all. He hasn't been cruel or anything.

Have you listened to chapter 7/8?

 

[+eveorjoy]

6 hours ago, Karger said:

Have you listened to chapter 7/8?

 

I did. I don't trust Moash, but I don't think what he did was emotionally abusive to Kaladin, it was just more bloody revenge. Now by the end of the book I likely will hate Moash more, but at this point Galivar is worse.

[Toaster Retribution]

Well... not Amaram. The guy isn’t actually evil in my book. 

Gavilar is still too much of an enigma, I think. 

I would probably say Sadeas. In the face of a new Desolation, he STILL planned to murder Dalinar and cause chaos, just for his own personal short-term gain. He could have done what Aladar or Roion did, but he chose not too. None of the others have done anything resembling that. 

 

[+Spicker]

On 7/24/2020 at 6:57 AM, Oltux72 said:

Sadeas has purpose in his cruelty and never claimed to be different.

Gavilar is mean to his wife and we only have her side of the story. And frankly, Navani was a bit of a golddigger.

Amaram, however, is a liar on top of everything and screwed over a genuine hero.

Sadeas is the worst right now to me because he killed thousands of his own allies (and would have had even more killed if he had his way) on the battlefield to gain power. I don't really care that he never pretended to be a good guy or that he claimed to have a purpose for it. To me, this act alone is worse than anything we have seen Amaram, Moash, or even Gavilar do so far (and this isn't even counting Sadeas' horrible treatment of the bridge crews). I personally consider the act of betrayal against Dalinar to be worse than any lie Amaram has told yet.

That being said, there is still plenty of room for Gavilar or Moash to change my opinion. In fact, I fully expect to learn more that will change my mind. However, I don't expect to hate Amaram the most. Don't get me wrong, I do hate him and am glad to see him dead. But he is not the worst to me based on what we have seen so far.

[Greywatch]

Gavilar - Abuser. Automatically the top slot.
Amaram - Evil, and slimy enough to hide it, pretending he's nice and shiny. Awful man.
Sadeas - Bad. Bad man.
Moash - Did some very bad things for bad reasons. But I get it.

[Toaster Retribution]

 

1 hour ago, Spicker said:

Sadeas is the worst right now to me because he killed thousands of his own allies (and would have had even more killed if he had his way) on the battlefield to gain power. I don't really care that he never pretended to be a good guy or that he claimed to have a purpose for it. To me, this act alone is worse than anything we have seen Amaram, Moash, or even Gavilar do so far (and this isn't even counting Sadeas' horrible treatment of the bridge crews). I personally consider the act of betrayal against Dalinar to be worse than any lie Amaram has told yet.

This. I don’t get why people ignore all of Sadeas crimes with the argument ”at least he is honest”. Because:

A) Sadeas isn’t honest. He is lying and manipulating the entirety of WoK, pretending to save, support and appreciate Dalinar as a true friend just so he can murder him, his son, his nephew and thousands of his soldiers. This far above the lies that Amaram (or Mr T for that matter) have told.  

B ) Just because you are honest about being crem, it doesnt change the fact that you are crem. In a way, it makes worse. You could at least make the argument that Amaram, Moash, Mr T and Gavilar all have managed to convince themselves that they commit crimes for a greater good. You really can’t do that with a guy who knows that he does everything for himself. 

[+Child of Hodor]

I think after we get his POV in the book 5 prologue we’ll think better of Gavilar. 

the first two prologues show Gavilar in a more positive light. The next two show him as arrogant and dangerous. The last one will show us what he’s really about. 

I think the bitterness he expressed to Navani was real. They clearly resent each other. However, I think he was being extra mean to her to keep her out of this dangerous business he’s doing.  

He’s keeping his family in the dark to “protect” them. 
 

[Pathfinder]

3 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

 

This. I don’t get why people ignore all of Sadeas crimes with the argument ”at least he is honest”. Because:

A) Sadeas isn’t honest. He is lying and manipulating the entirety of WoK, pretending to save, support and appreciate Dalinar as a true friend just so he can murder him, his son, his nephew and thousands of his soldiers. This far above the lies that Amaram (or Mr T for that matter) have told.  

B ) Just because you are honest about being crem, it doesnt change the fact that you are crem. In a way, it makes worse. You could at least make the argument that Amaram, Moash, Mr T and Gavilar all have managed to convince themselves that they commit crimes for a greater good. You really can’t do that with a guy who knows that he does everything for himself. 

I don't think anyone is excusing sadeas's actions at all. Or at least correct me if i am wrong. I think what it is for people is if someone is clearly out for themselves and admits it, then its two fold. First,  if you get screwed over by that person, that's on you. You should have known better if you trusted them, or they simply beat you because they are better at it than you. Further there aren't any self delusional excuses trying to make people thank them for screwing them over. Its blatant. Genuine in a way. 

Conversely galavanting around acting like sunshine on earth or your crem don't stink while being villainous is classically seen as repulsive. The deception is the worst thing you can do. Stab the person in the chest so you can look them in the eyes when you do it. Stabbing them in the back is cowardly. 

Side note that is one of my big problems with classic legends, that the hero is a big strong guy and the evil guy is the smart guy that had to use his intelligence to get where he is. But i digress 

Like i said, i dont think people are saying sadeas's actions are allowable or forgivable because he owns up to his villainy. I think they respect it to a degree because he doesnt claim he is something he isnt. 

So for gavilar and amaram, based on the info we have, people read it as they claim they do it for the greater good, but really they do it for themselves. Your cause can be evil, but if you truly believe in it, then the rationale can be understood and to a degree respected. But claiming high ideals when the reality is you are only using them to suit yourself is really reprehensible to some people. 

 

Now for my own little addition, totally recognizing others think differently, but considering amaram looked up to, and idolized gavilar as well as amaram was in gavilars inner circle coupled with the WoB makes me feel my theory on amaram being a narcissistic personality disorder all the more supported.

 

Now i didnt write that to restart our discussions. Totally get and respect you disagree. Just i interpret the information that way. I understand you interpret it differently.

Edited July 25, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Toaster Retribution]

9 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I don't think anyone is excusing sadeas's actions at all. Or at least correct me if i am wrong. I think what it is for people is if someone is clearly out for themselves and admits it, then its two fold. First,  if you get screwed over by that person, that's on you. You should have known better if you trusted them, or they simply beat you because they are better at it than you. Further there aren't any self delusional excuses trying to make people thank them for screwing them over. Its blatant. Genuine in a way. 

Conversely galavanting around acting like sunshine on earth or your crem don't stink while being villainous is classically seen as repulsive. The deception is the worst thing you can do. Stab the person in the chest so you can look them in the eyes when you do it. Stabbing them in the back is cowardly. 

Side note that is one of my big problems with classic legends, that the hero is a big strong guy and the evil guy is the smart guy that had to use his intelligence to get where he is. But i digress 

Like i said, i dont think people are saying sadeas's actions are allowable or forgivable because he owns up to his villainy. I think they respect it to a degree because he doesnt claim he is something he isnt. 

So for gavilar and amaram, based on the info we have, people read it as they claim they do it for the greater good, but really they do it for themselves. Your cause can be evil, but if you truly believe in it, then the rationale can be understood and to a degree respected. But claiming high ideals when the reality is you are only using them to suit yourself is really reprehensible to some people. 

 

Now for my own little addition, totally recognizing others think differently, but considering amaram looked up to, and idolized gavilar as well as amaram was in gavilars inner circle coupled with the WoB makes me feel my theory on amaram being a narcissistic personality disorder all the more supported.

 

Now i didnt write that to restart our discussions. Totally get and respect you disagree. Just i interpret the information that way. I understand you interpret it differently.

Yeah, we have done so many rounds on Amaram before :-D Another discussion wouldn’t lead to much, unless we get some more spicy stuff from a new book/WoB. 

I can understand your point though, even tho I do want to point out that Sadeas did pretend to be the good friend Dalinar knew just to get a window to murder him and his entire family. Sadeas is not upfront with who he is when it doesn’t suit him. 

[Pathfinder]

3 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Yeah, we have done so many rounds on Amaram before :-D Another discussion wouldn’t lead to much, unless we get some more spicy stuff from a new book/WoB. 

I can understand your point though, even tho I do want to point out that Sadeas did pretend to be the good friend Dalinar knew just to get a window to murder him and his entire family. Sadeas is not upfront with who he is when it doesn’t suit him. 

I think the idea is like the scorpion and the fox (though there are plenty of problems with the tale, just using it to illustrate the concept). If a scorpion tells the fox to trust it, that it won't sting the fox, when the fox knows scorpions always sting, then it is kind of on the fox for putting itself into a situation to be stung. Now again, there is a lot more to the situation, such as Dalinar trusting his visions and misunderstanding them, coupled with their history, but the entire book Sadeas was crem to Dalinar and all he loved. In one moment Sadeas is suddenly buddy buddy and wants to be better? You can say it is best to look for the good in all people and etc, but at the end of the day Dalinar knew Sadeas's personality and history. Keep in mind, in no way shape or form am I trying to victim blame or say it is Dalinar's fault for the tower. I am just trying to explain why Sadeas can be seen as "honest" while Amaram and Gavilar be seen as "duplicitous". Also my intention is not to argue that Gavilar and Amaram are or are not duplicitous. You already well know how I feel on the subject. Just trying to explain why people may see things that way. 

[Karger]

20 hours ago, eveorjoy said:

I did. I don't trust Moash, but I don't think what he did was emotionally abusive to Kaladin

What about Gavinor?

[+eveorjoy]

2 hours ago, Karger said:

What about Gavinor?

I don't think he even saw the kid when he killed Elhokar. He saw his enemy, killed him, and then happened to notice Kaladin there and saluted. If he had noticed the boy, I don't think Drehy and Skar would have been able to rescue Gavinor from Kholinar. So, though Gavinor might one day want revenge against him for the death of his father, I don't think Moash intended to harm the child beyond killing his father in front of his eyes. I don't think Moash meant to be directly abusive to the boy I mean, so it not quite intentional emotional abuse. Now, this will likely change as Moash/Vire manipulates things at the Tower, but for the time being Moash is not intentionally emotionally abusive. 

[Karger]

35 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

I don't think he even saw the kid when he killed Elhokar.

Moash kicked Gavinor out of the way when killing Elhokar.

[+eveorjoy]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Moash kicked Gavinor out of the way when killing Elhokar.

Oh yeah. Well, actually that shows he didn't want to hurt the kid. He could have killed them both. I just don't see it as him wanting to hurt Gavinor as much as he just wanted  to kill Elhokar

[Karger]

12 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

Oh yeah. Well, actually that shows he didn't want to hurt the kid. He could have killed them both. I just don't see it as him wanting to hurt Gavinor as much as he just wanted  to kill Elhokar

He still murdered a man in front of his own son while mocking the ethics his only friend devoted his life too.  You would need a truck load of TNT just to blast Moash up to crem level in my book.