RoW Prologue and Chapter 1 Discussion

[Karger]

2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Based on the WoB below Amaram (at the time of the prologue), was of the 4th, or 5th dahn. Remember it wasn't till "recent" that Amaram earned a sharblade and plate to travel to the shattered plains. The territory Amaram defended was owned by Sadeas. If you refer to the flashbacks of Kaladin, Amaram is referred to as a brightlord. In the "present day" as Kaladin travels to the Shattered Plains, Amaram is referred to as "Highlord". So as of the time Gavilar was trying to set up Amaram and Jasnah, Amaram was not 3rd dahn.

Dalinar tells Kaladin that the proper address for him to use is Brightlord.  Given that Amaram was Sadeas's top general I think assuming he was third Dahn would make sense although I do agree if their was an unmarried highprince son of the proper age they might have made a better match(however doing so would probably weaken succession order if something happened to Elhokar).

[Pathfinder]

15 minutes ago, Karger said:

Dalinar tells Kaladin that the proper address for him to use is Brightlord.  Given that Amaram was Sadeas's top general I think assuming he was third Dahn would make sense although I do agree if their was an unmarried highprince son of the proper age they might have made a better match(however doing so would probably weaken succession order if something happened to Elhokar).

Brightlord is a generic honorific for lighteyes. Dalinar as a highprince is referred to as brightlord and he is higher than Amaram prior to Amaram taking over the Sadeas princedom. Brightlord, brightlady. Kind of like saying nobleman and noblewoman. For instance Lin Davar is a backwater nobleman, yet he is also referred to as brightlord and I think it is safe to say Lin Davar and Dalinar are not at the same level. 

Edited July 27, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Karger]

47 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

For instance Lin Davar is a backwater nobleman, yet he is also referred to as brightlord and I think it is safe to say Lin Davar and Dalinar are not at the same level. 

Agreed.  I don't think Amaram ever got a formal promotion in rank although he might have gained more respect.

[Subvisual Haze]

Hard to imagine what it would be like to have a wildly ignorant extreme narcissist as your nation's supreme executive.

[Karger]

1 minute ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Hard to imagine what it would be like to have a wildly ignorant extreme narcissist as your nation's supreme executive.

Yeah...

[Pathfinder]

23 minutes ago, Karger said:

Agreed.  I don't think Amaram ever got a formal promotion in rank although he might have gained more respect.

At the end of the day to each their own, but I did a (admittedly brief) scan of every instance regarding Amaram, and the word general. Highprinces have referred to themselves as generals. Men they command have been referred to as generals. People leading armies back and home that are considered the dregs not worth it at the shattered plains are called generals. So although I respect you believe differently, i personally maintain that Jasnah and Amaram were not of the same rank. Jasnah has given commands to generals that were under Dalinar, and they obeyed them without question. In the WoB, general was with a question mark, indicating to me the writer was uncertain of its place. Then there is the fact that Adolin states that now that Amaram is a shardbearer he is of rank that can choose a new liege. Getting shards is also what brought Amaram to the shattered plains. If the shards did nothing to his standing, then for me it is odd that Amaram was stuck back at home away from "all the real fighters" at the shattered plains till he got the shards. But I will keep digging to see if there is anything further that could be more clear cut in one direction or the other. 

[Karger]

4 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Jasnah has given commands to generals that were under Dalinar, and they obeyed them without question

When?

4 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

If the shards did nothing to his standing, then for me it is odd that Amaram was stuck back at home away from "all the real fighters" at the shattered plains till he got the shards

I doubt Sadeas would have left a complete nobody in charge.

Edited July 27, 2020 by Karger

[Pathfinder]

42 minutes ago, Karger said:

When?

She decided where to deploy troops in preparation for Odium's attack prior to the battle of Thaylenah. When things began going pear shaped, she planned to issue orders for the retreat from Thaylenah. Later when team honor was fighting back, she organized team honor's forces and how to fortify again issuing orders that were obeyed without question.

Further Gavilar before he was king, was a backwater brightlord that was not anywhere near next in line to become a highprince, prior to taking over and he was of the 4th dahn. Much like Amaram.  

 

edit: in response about Sadeas leaving a nobody in charge. Sadeas as well as Dalinar, and all the other highprinces have multiple generals. Think in terms of the US. There are 1 star, 2 star, 3 star, 4 star, and 5 star generals. Amaram was not in charge of the entire princedom while Sadeas was gone. He was in charge of a specific hunk of territory owned by Sadeas. 

Edited July 27, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Requiem17]

Quick question, is the Fused we see in Chapter 1 Turash? I'm regretting planning my reread to end in October rather than July.

Edit: To prevent double-posting. Navani here is super interested in fabrials, and Gavilar's words likely lead her to think she's no real scholar. Leading her to this line in WoR: "I'm their patron, dear.... They suffer me." Tinfoil: If the Sibling is Urithiru, and Urithiru is a giant fabrial, I can see Navani bonding the Sibling being a emotionally redemptive too.

Quote

A hulking figure easily seven feet tall emerged from the fog, accompanied by a small squad of parshmen with weapons. The dreadful creature had a beard and long hair the color of dried blood, and it seemed to meld with his simple wrap of clothing—as if he wore his hair itself for a covering. He had a pure black skin coloring, with lines of marbled red under his eyes.

Most importantly, he had a jagged carapace unlike any Lirin had seen, with a strange pair of carapace fins—or horns—rising above his ears.

The creature’s eyes glowed a soft red. One of the Fused. Here in Hearthstone.

 

Edited July 27, 2020 by Requiem17

[Pathfinder]

32 minutes ago, Requiem17 said:

Quick question, is the Fused we see in Chapter 1 Turash? I'm regretting planning my reread to end in October rather than July.

 

I don't think so. The fused that Venli followed who was eventually revealed to be Turash was one of the hulking fused whose carapace looked like shardplate. 

[Karger]

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

She decided where to deploy troops in preparation for Odium's attack prior to the battle of Thaylenah. When things began going pear shaped, she planned to issue orders for the retreat from Thaylenah. Later when team honor was fighting back, she organized team honor's forces and how to fortify again issuing orders that were obeyed without question.

I think that could easily be attributed to her radiant status as well as her relationship with Dalinar.  I do not think it had anything to do with her roll as a princess.  Considering her gender I also doubt it was about ranking specifically.

Edited July 27, 2020 by Karger

[Pathfinder]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

I think that could easily be attributed to her radiant status as well as her relationship with Dalinar.  I do not think it had anything to do with her roll as a princess.  Considering her gender I also doubt it was about ranking specifically.

Radiants are only considered via rank in regards to their shardblade. Owning a shardblade only gets you to the fourth dahn. As per the conversation with dalinar and kaladin. As per the earlier WoB, jasnah is already of a higher dahn. So her being a radiant would not play into people following her orders. 

Her thinking of regarding the retreat was contrary to what she believed dalinar would think. If they outranked her, they wouldn't follow her orders. Which she fully expects them to do

[Karger]

6 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Radiants are only considered via rank in regards to their shardblade. Owning a shardblade only gets you to the fourth dahn

8 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Her thinking of regarding the retreat was contrary to what she believed dalinar would think. If they outranked her, they wouldn't follow her orders. Which she fully expects them to do

Formal rank yes but in a crisis people tend to follow those who appear to have some idea of what is going on.  If magical monsters showed up and a magic knight showed up to fight them I am betting most people including military officers would follow them.  Remember Jasnah's lesson.  Power is an illusion of perception.  If people think following you is the right thing to do they will do it regardless of their technical authority.  Jasnah has some idea of what is going on and is used to being obeyed.  If she has a plan she knows people would follow it.

[Pathfinder]

3 minutes ago, Karger said:

Formal rank yes but in a crisis people tend to follow those who appear to have some idea of what is going on.  If magical monsters showed up and a magic knight showed up to fight them I am betting most people including military officers would follow them.  Remember Jasnah's lesson.  Power is an illusion of perception.  If people think following you is the right thing to do they will do it regardless of their technical authority.  Jasnah has some idea of what is going on and is used to being obeyed.  If she has a plan she knows people would follow it.

Then why did they follow her orders prior to the battle in the other situations i also referenced?

Edited July 27, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Karger]

5 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Then why did they follow her orders prior to the battle in the other situations i also referenced?

I just checked my OB copy.  I could not find any situations that could not be accounted for by either "We have no idea what is happening but that boss lady does" or "yeah that is Jasnah.  It is a better idea just to do what she says."

[Pathfinder]

15 hours ago, Karger said:

I just checked my OB copy.  I could not find any situations that could not be accounted for by either "We have no idea what is happening but that boss lady does" or "yeah that is Jasnah.  It is a better idea just to do what she says."

When the tower happened, and Kaladin went up to Dalinar's troops and ordered them around, they didn't say "We have no idea what is happening, but going to do what he says". They literally stopped and went "Hey. can you even do that?". Ultimately after commanding, they followed his lead, but even in battle, even with massive losses, they still stopped and questioned him. Questioned whether or not he had the authority to do so. With Jasnah, no one did. Now you are perfectly entitled to believe as you wish. Just as I am, and the information I have found leads me to believe Amaram is one of many generals as mentioned in flashbacks and the "present day". Amaram was to me max 4th dahn. more likely he was 5th. We know he had land which the lowest as per Brandon was 6th. We know the shardblade automatically brings you up to 4th. We know Amaram went from managing crem soldiers left back at home for border skirmishes to suddenly front and center in the shattered plains all because of said shardblade. If he was truly this wonderful 5 star general, then he would have been at the shattered plains all along. But he wasn't. It wasn't till attaining the shardblade he joined the "big leagues" and it wasn't till he got a shardblade that Adolin said he could ditch Sadeas. 

I think I presented my beliefs adequately and that the information stands on its own. i wish you luck with your beliefs. I see no reason to continue this line of dialogue with you. have a nice day!

 

a little addition from the latest chapters. dunno if they should be spoilered in a thread for earlier chapters but here we go:

Spoiler

Kaladin is named highmarshall. I did not see any mention of dahn with that, but last time we saw Kaladin, his shards meant he was of 4th dahn and a land owner. I think this further supports that Amaram was 4th dahn or lower as he also held the rank of highmarshall. 

 

Edited July 28, 2020 by Pathfinder

[fammann]

On 24.7.2020 at 10:55 PM, GriffinMaze said:

 

“Surely you don’t intend to obey these monsters.”

“I obey the person who holds the sword to my neck, General,” Lirin said. “Same as I always have.”

 

He's a coward

Have you read all the points people made about Lirin? How can you say he is a coward so definitively when it’s clearly not a matter of black and white. 

Me as a pacifist I am certainly inspired by Lirin and view him as a hero in is own right. 

[+Oltux72]

On 26/07/2020 at 0:39 PM, Storyspren said:

So Yelig-nar somehow leaves Aesudan. So I don’t think Yelig-nar confers immortality, though perhaps Yelig-nar somehow consumes its host rather than let the host completely die.

Well, yes, but under the assumption that Gavilar had bonded Yelig-Nar by the time Szeth shows up, we have an almost unanswerable question on our plates. Why and how did Gavilar lose that fight? Amaram had no time at all for training, yet Kaladin had almost unlimited fuel and it took Rock's arrow. Szeth should have died in that fight, not Gavilar.

That Aesudan eventually bonded Yelig-Nar suggests that Gavilar had Yelig-Nar in a gem stone, but did not know how to bond him. That is rather easy to explain. Even if Gavilar knew how to read he could not openly afford to use this ability. Thus Aesudan could do historical research more easily.

[Schneeente]

I read most of the posts here and I think nobody referred to this sentence so far:  (if I have overlooked it, I'm sorry)

 

Quote

Gavilar suddenly stood up straight and glanced toward the doorway, though Navani hadn’t made any sound.

 

My first thought was: His spren has told him 

My second thought was: No, that can't be, he would have used stormlight in the fight against the assassin if he had a spren.

And then I realized, if he had a spren it would have been a viodspren... And stormlight wouldn't do him any good.

 

So what do you think? Has he already bonded a spren? If not, why did he suddenly stood up and glanced towards the hidden Navani? 

Edited September 23, 2020 by Schneeente

[+honorblades]

1 hour ago, Schneeente said:

So what do you think? Has he already bonded a spren? If not, why did he suddenly stood up and glanced towards the hidden Navani? 

My initial thought when reading this chapter was that Gavilar had enough Breath to have Lifesense. Where he would have gotten that though... anyone's guess. 

[Lemiltock]

2 hours ago, Schneeente said:

I read most of the posts here and I think nobody referred to this sentence so far:  (if I have overlooked it, I'm sorry)

 

 

My first thought was: His spren has told him 

My second thought was: No, that can't be, he would have used stormlight in the fight against the assassin if he had a spren.

And then I realized, if he had a spren it would have been a viodspren... And stormlight wouldn't do him any good.

 

So what do you think? Has he already bonded a spren? If not, why did he suddenly stood up and glanced towards the hidden Navani? 

 

1 hour ago, _edgedancer said:

My initial thought when reading this chapter was that Gavilar had enough Breath to have Lifesense. Where he would have gotten that though... anyone's guess. 

If this was anything more than chance or paranoia on Gavilars part, after all he is having secret meetings all the time, then Nale was also in the room with Gavilar, and he has a high spren that could have been watching

[Rock's Spear]

I feel like Odium is going to resurrect Gavilar.  Gavilar is going to have a battle with Dalinar.  Dalinar will die unfortunately.