RoW Prologue and Chapter 1 Discussion

[Pathfinder]

7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Even if the storm as a physical phenomenon persisted, its arcane power would vanish. Hence everything with a vital gem heart would be dead in a few weeks. Ecological collapse would set in immediately. You'd have removed most predators and all top predators.

If the crem stops flowing, the nutritional situation will change drastically. Many plants will die out.

Highstorms and singers were created by adonalsium long before honor and cultivation was a thing. Honor created the stormfather via a splinter of his power. So the highstorms predate the stormfather. So if the stormfather ceases to exist there would be an effect but not a planet wide extinction. All associated WoB below:

 

Snote85

Have the Highstorms always existed on Roshar? The excerpt that talks about how one of the Bondsmiths had resigned himself to fight the Voidbringers but woke up and had a new idea, one that had to do with the nature of the Heralds themselves. Then, inside the Oathgate, we see "mythical creatures" like lions and such. It would make sense that the world might have been different when the KR were last around. So much so, that if the Highstorms "Opposite" is the Everstorm and it was made by followers of Odium, then the Highstorm would have been made by followers of Honor.

Brandon Sanderson

Highstorms did predate the arrival of Honor and Cultivation on Roshar, but it has evolved much during the thousands of years since that event. It was not created by followers of Honor, but there is more to this story that you'll find out as the series progresses.

General Reddit 2017 (Feb. 10, 2017)

 

 

Questioner

Pre-Shattering magic in books?

Brandon Sanderson

Let's see. I would count the highstorms as that. Highstorm predates the Shattering. Now, the highstorm has been changed dramatically by certain events, but the highstorm does predate the Shattering.

Oathbringer San Francisco signing (Nov. 15, 2017)

 

 

coltonx9

Do the singers predate the highstorms?

Brandon Sanderson

The singers and the highstorms are-- The highstorms-- Let's say no. Trying to decide which one came first. They were created, right? But the highstorms were created as part of Roshar, as well. The highstorms predate humans arriving. Highstorms predate the Shattering of Adonalsium.

Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

 

 

Questioner

Seons are Splinters?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Splinters of Devotion.

Questioner

Um, Splintered...Honor is the *inaudible*...the stormwall...

Brandon Sanderson

The Stormfather?

Questioner

The Stormfather.

Brandon Sanderson

The Stormfather is technically a Splinter of Honor, but it was an intentional Splinter, that Honor did himself.

Questioner

Does he have another Splinter?

Brandon Sanderson

So, all of the honorspren are Splinters of Honor, but this is a different situation because he actually did this intentionally.

Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016)

 

 

Questioner

We were talking that it's kind of a shame that Dalinar doesn't have his own "real" spren. I think it's an upgrade, is there a way I should think of this? Is it a cool thing or a bad thing?

Brandon Sanderson

This is a very cool thing, but it's also a very dangerous thing.

Questioner

Well [the Stormfather] controls the highstorms ... follow-up question: if he dies, does that affect the spren?

Brandon Sanderson

 

Dying, as long as the oaths are not broken, does not affect the spren in a very terrible way. There are effects.

 

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

[+Oltux72]

3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Highstorms and singers were created by adonalsium long before honor and cultivation was a thing. Honor created the stormfather via a splinter of his power. So the highstorms predate the stormfather. So if the stormfather ceases to exist there would be an effect but not a planet wide extinction. All associated WoB below:

How do you read this that the Stormfather is new? It looks to me like Honor modified him.

[Pathfinder]

3 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

How do you read this that the Stormfather is new? It looks to me like Honor modified him.

This portion

 

Brandon Sanderson

The Stormfather is technically a Splinter of Honor, but it was an intentional Splinter, that Honor did himself.

 

Now just in case i also want to make something abundantly clear so i am not misquoted later. The highstorms have changed a lot since adonalsium first made them. So as i quoted, if the stormfather were to die there would be an effect, but it would not be a catastrophic planet wide extinction level event.

[Innovation]

Cultivation’s death would be a terrible blow to the Rosharan biosphere. She is one of the main reasons that Rosharan ecology is as diverse and persistent as it is today, along with Gemheart bonds. If the Crem stops falling from the Highstorms, no Gemhearts will grow. This wouldn’t be catastrophic, but it would wipe out all Greatshells, cause plants and animals to stop growing and expanding the way they do, and remove Roshar’s main light source. As fire is stronger on Roshar than it is on Earth, this could be a problem.  

Edited July 25, 2020 by Innovation

[Pathfinder]

2 hours ago, Innovation said:

Cultivation’s death would be a terrible blow to the Rosharan biosphere. She is one of the main reasons that Rosharan ecology is as diverse and persistent as it is today, along with Gemheart bonds. If the Crem stops falling from the Highstorms, no Gemhearts will grow. This wouldn’t be catastrophic, but it would wipe out all Greatshells, cause plants and animals to stop growing and expanding the way they do, and remove Roshar’s main light source. As fire is stronger on Roshar than it is on Earth, this could be a problem.  

Spren existed on roshar prior to the arrival of cultivation and honor. The entire ecology was created by adonalsium. Not cultivation.  So her death would not be that catastrophic.  Further death of shards don't work that way. The holder dies and the shard becomes directionless regarding informed choice, but all the things in motion remain in motion. The power itself was not destroyed. We have three examples of this

 

Roshar

Tanavast is dead. Yet surgebinding still very much exists despite the power of honor being shattered.

 

Scadrial 

Spoiler

Leras was dead and yet mistborn, mistings, and feruchemists were still a thing. The mist only killed people because ruin co-oped it to be harsher so it could be seen negatively instead of positively. But even then he couldn't stop the process entirely

 

Sel

Spoiler

Dominion and devotion are dead and shattered yet elantrians and all the other magics on sel work. The chasm was not the result of their deaths. Their deaths happened long ago and we have a WoB backing that up. Further the issue with the cognitive realm is because odium shoved the power into there. When a shard holder dies, that doesn't normally happen. 

 

So if the shareholder of cultivation died, things would continue on as they have, just there would not be a sapient entity consciously acting to resist odium

[Innovation]

Cultivation‘a presence is one of the main reasons Rosharan ecology is so persistent and varied. Her death would not be catastrophic, I agree, but it would be very damaging to Roshar’s ecology. She is supporting it, allowing it to grow and flourish. Odium would splinter her, then likely splinter anything that took a substantial amount of her power, like the Stormfather taking part of Honor’s power. With no Shardholder to direct the power, Roshar would not be able to support the animal population it can today. This would cause predators to die off. 

Edited July 25, 2020 by Innovation

[Pathfinder]

20 minutes ago, Innovation said:

Cultivation‘a presence is one of the main reasons Rosharan ecology is so persistent and varied. Her death would not be catastrophic, I agree, but it would be very damaging to Roshar’s ecology. She is supporting it, allowing it to grow and flourish. Odium would splinter her, then likely splinter anything that took a substantial amount of her power, like the Stormfather taking part of Honor’s power. With no Shardholder to direct the power, Roshar would not be able to support the animal population it can today. This would cause predators to die off. 

Saying this with total respect, as tone can be difficult to convey over text but again no, thats not how that works. As i cited earlier in WoB, the rosharan ecology was created by adonalsium and was fully sustainable prior to cultivation and honors arrival. There ecology was built around highstorms and bonding spren. Spren existed on roshar prior to honor and cultivations arrival. Cultivation the shard holder is not sitting there telling chasmfiends to breed, or bond with spren. Even if the power of cultivation (not the holder) did actually affect chasmfiends and singer bonds (which is doesnt because again, all of that was a thing before cultivation was ever a thing), the power even if it was completely shattered cannot be fully destroyed. So all the functions and coinciding magic systems would still exist. We have examples of exactly that and i gave you both of them. Scadrial and sel. They both literally show that.

 

WoB showing adonalsium is the reason for rosharan ecology and highstorms

 

Questioner

You mentioned the ecology on Roshar, and also you mentioned that mostly the non-sentient spren predate the Shattering of Adonalsium. So my question is about the evolution of life on Roshar, and how essential the highstorms are to life on Roshar, how the plants evolved, so can we assume that life that is dependent on the highstorms predates the Shattering of Adonalsium?

Brandon Sanderson

Um… You--

Questioner

Can we correctly assume?

Brandon Sanderson

--yeah, *laughter* I'll tell you this. The highstorms predate, and there was a lot of natural evolution on Roshar, resulting in a lot of what we have there.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016) Edited July 25, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Karger]

23 hours ago, Kuram said:

What you quoted suggests to me that the stormfather is not the storm, and only resides there.

The Stormfather clearly moves the investature into the storms.  Brandon explicitly stated that.  Without him Roshar would have a catastrophic ecological disaster.  I don't know what other kind of proof you want.

23 hours ago, cfphelps said:

There was a lot of speculation after the Syl PoV about Kaladin getting moved over to the medics. I wonder if this confrontation with Moash is what tipped him over the edge to make Dalinar change his role. Or how he treats Moash once in his custody. Or maybe whatever okay Moash is after starts to work on him and he gets pulled in two directions again.  Also get to see a much less likeable side of Gavilar. Hopefully that is influence of the unmade and he at least has a little bit of a cop out. 

This confrontation is chapter 7/8.  The interlude you are referring to probably does not happen until later.  I personally hope it is not one big thing but a pile of little things that really pushes Kaladin over the edge.  I think that would be more believable.  I also don't like the idea of Gavilar being a terrible person as a result of Unmade influence.  That is already too much of a cop out.

22 hours ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

Also, I didn't see anyone mention this, but Lirin would let one person die, if it could mean that he was able to save two people. Lirin simply wants to save as many lives as he can.

It is called triage.  It may be cold but the other option is Kaladin's Kholinar freeze.  He has not choice.

21 hours ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

But this is very weird. Why would Abiajan call this things as superstition? I would say that the Fused had taught her about some things like this.

She thinks they are superstition(which they technically are) because they are based on faith rather then observation.  Roshar does not have a germ theory of disease.  They just practice sanitation because they were told to by these mythical figures.

Edited July 26, 2020 by Karger

[Storyspren]

Maybe Gavilar was bonded to Yelig-nar. Then when he died, Yelig-nar went to Aesudan. 
 

Just a thought. 

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, Storyspren said:

Maybe Gavilar was bonded to Yelig-nar. Then when he died, Yelig-nar went to Aesudan. 

Making that assumption, how do you explain that he fell to his death? And that he did not use Progession on himself when severely wounded? Or that Szeth did survive the fight for that matter?

[Storyspren]

9 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Making that assumption, how do you explain that he fell to his death? And that he did not use Progession on himself when severely wounded? Or that Szeth did survive the fight for that matter?

So Yelig-nar somehow leaves Aesudan. So I don’t think Yelig-nar confers immortality, though perhaps Yelig-nar somehow consumes its host rather than let the host completely die. 
 

Many of these questions though, might be answered if we figured out what it means tha Thaidakar was too late.

 

[+Oltux72]

On 24/07/2020 at 11:59 PM, Singer said:

Right now his choices are A) light eyes who would kill him if he stepped out of line and Fused who would kill him if he stepped out of line. A dead surgeon can't help anyone. Ergo, being pragmatic and helping in the way he can given his circumstances doesn't seem cowardly to me. It's called choosing your battles. 

True but incomplete. He does not tell Kaladin that lighteyes are not worth fighting for or against. He tells him that there is no use fighting. Period. He may be shortening his thoughts to speak to a young man, but it looks likelier that his pacifism is rooted in deeper principles.

 

[Firespir]

I'm a bit late to the party and I see most of the points are already covered but I'd like to share my opinion on the matter anyway.

So, the greatshell in the room, Gavilar. I'd love to jump on the hate train, but I think he's not the villain he appears to be at first glance (although those insults towards Navani were absolutely horrendous) and the situation is much more complicated. As covered in details on one of the previous pages, it seems strange, that him and Navani went that quickly from "...not so long ago that they’d sat conspiring together about the kingdom they would forge..." to being enemies. I'd like to imagine that as any real relationship going down the drain, there's not one simple reason for it, but rather a combination of everything. Post kingdom unification fatigue, plus the discoveries about the heralds and other big secrets of Roshar. Perhaps the influence of Odium/the Unmade during Gavilar's hypothetical trip to Braize. Or maybe that's even an act to protect his close ones as someone suggested.

One thing in particular struck me as very odd is his strong desire to marry Jasnah to Amaram. He all but left all the ruling to Navani and the others because in his own words " I have discovered the entrance to the realm of gods and legends, and once I join them, my kingdom will never end. I will never end." So, what's the big deal if Jasnah is married or not? That just seems like one other mundane task to leave to someone else. Something smells fishy here.

And a quick tinfoil theory. So, it's been pointed several times that Aesudan is not too invested in Elhokar, spends too much time with other men, their marriage is political etc. What if (a good soap opera twist) Gavinor is not Elhokar's son. Books 6-10 will cover his anger that he was denied the throne, his conflicts with his "family", his separation and rise to power, cruelties and so on until finally he finds out he's not a legitimate heir.

 

 

 

[Singer]

9 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

True but incomplete. He does not tell Kaladin that lighteyes are not worth fighting for or against. He tells him that there is no use fighting. Period. He may be shortening his thoughts to speak to a young man, but it looks likelier that his pacifism is rooted in deeper principles.

 

He is a true pacifist and would not consider violence as the right choice, but he spent pretty much all of WoK fighting Light eyes who treated him and his family cruelly. He will defend his principles with word and deed, but physical altercation isn't the only way to fight for something. In the end he loses his fight to protect Tien and Kaladin from Roshone, but if he'd have used violence he would have lost anyway and a lot quicker.

He tries to teach Kaladin about the realities of war, about the human cost of violence, and he tries to do the best he can in the world he lives in. He'll fight for what he believes in, using methods he believes in, why should we always assume brute force to be the best or only method of fighting the good fight?

Edited July 26, 2020 by Singer

[Karger]

3 hours ago, Firespir said:

As covered in details on one of the previous pages, it seems strange, that him and Navani went that quickly from "...not so long ago that they’d sat conspiring together about the kingdom they would forge..." to being enemies. I'd like to imagine that as any real relationship going down the drain, there's not one simple reason for it, but rather a combination of everything. Post kingdom unification fatigue, plus the discoveries about the heralds and other big secrets of Roshar

I think you are on to something.  Navani and Gavilar are not really living in the same world anymore.  Back when they had a shared interest in uniting the kingdom they were allies/companions.  As such they had a degree of respect if not equality/love.  Gavilar is now playing a new game and probably sees Navani as part of the old one.  As a king he might or might not be remembered depending on how is nation does after his death.  No matter how good a job he does if things he can't control or did not account for happen when he dies then what he wants(being a great man of history) will not happen.  As a person who changed the course of human history he will almost certainly be remembered.  I do also think some misogyny is involved however.  The name the Sons of Honor chose.  The fact that their ranks seem to include very few women and Amaram's attitudes all strongly point in that direction.

3 hours ago, Firespir said:

One thing in particular struck me as very odd is his strong desire to marry Jasnah to Amaram. He all but left all the ruling to Navani and the others because in his own words " I have discovered the entrance to the realm of gods and legends, and once I join them, my kingdom will never end. I will never end." So, what's the big deal if Jasnah is married or not? That just seems like one other mundane task to leave to someone else. Something smells fishy here.

Amaram is a member of the Sons of Honor.  Interestingly Elhokar's wife probably was as well.  I think he was a little worried about her(by worried I mean afraid of) and wanted to marry her off to his pet sycophant(someone he could control) as a way of both keeping an eye on her and controlling her.  Also he may have promised her to Amaram as a way of securing his loyalty.

3 hours ago, Firespir said:

And a quick tinfoil theory. So, it's been pointed several times that Aesudan is not too invested in Elhokar, spends too much time with other men, their marriage is political etc. What if (a good soap opera twist) Gavinor is not Elhokar's son. Books 6-10 will cover his anger that he was denied the throne, his conflicts with his "family", his separation and rise to power, cruelties and so on until finally he finds out he's not a legitimate heir.

As far as illegitimate Kholin theories go this one makes much more sense but stongly doubt it.  Firstly I don't think anyone alive would know that he was not legitimate.  Secondly Gavinor was born while Elhokar was at war.  He made several trips back to Kholinar.  If the times did not match up exactly Elhokar and everyone else would know so she would have to have had him with a lover at a very specific time probably with someone unimportant considering anyone who was anyone was with the war effort.  Lastly everyone who conceivably would know is dead.

Edited July 27, 2020 by Karger

[cfphelps]

23 hours ago, Karger said:

This confrontation is chapter 7/8.  The interlude you are referring to probably does not happen until later.  I personally hope it is not one big thing but a pile of little things that really pushes Kaladin over the edge.  I think that would be more believable.  I also don't like the idea of Gavilar being a terrible person as a result of Unmade influence.  That is already too much of a cop out.

We don't know how long it has been since he switched duties or how long between this chapter it is until Syl's interlude so the argument that her PoV probably doesn't happen until later doesn't really hold water. Totally respect your preference for there to be more small things that add up to cause it though. 

[Karger]

42 minutes ago, cfphelps said:

We don't know how long it has been since he switched duties or how long between this chapter it is until Syl's interlude so the argument that her PoV probably doesn't happen until later doesn't really hold water.

Maybe but it would mess with the pacing a lot to make Syl discuss as new something that happened several hundred pages earlier.

[Firespir]

4 hours ago, Karger said:

I think you are on to something.  Navani and Gavilar are not really living in the same world anymore.  Back when they had a shared interest in uniting the kingdom they were allies/companions.  As such they had a degree of respect if not equality/love.  Gavilar is now playing a new game and probably sees Navani as part of the old one...  ... I do also think some misogyny is involved however.  The name the Sons of Honor chose.  The fact that their ranks seem to include very few women and Amaram's attitudes all strongly point in that direction.

I agree that there's certainly some misogyny or ill advised arrogance on Gavilar's side. Still I think it will be kind of bland if it turns out he was a bad guy all along and he hid it. Again for all we know so far it appears there really wasn't enough time for them to grow apart the usual way, so the logical conclusion is that something drastic happened in order for him to shift personalities so rapidly. I certainly don't want a grand redemption arc either but it will be nice if the events unfold with the adequate complexity. Definitely adds more realism.

4 hours ago, Karger said:

Amaram is a member of the Sons of Honor.  Interestingly Elhokar's wife probably was as well.  I think he was a little worried about her(by worried I mean afraid of) and wanted to marry her off to his pet sycophant(someone he could control) as a way of both keeping an eye on her and controlling her.  Also he may have promised her to Amaram as a way of securing his loyalty.

Hmm, I actually haven't considered that he might have needed to buy Amaram's loyalty at all, I just assumed they were already thick. I don't think there's any reason for us to suspect he was afraid of her. I didn't get such vibes from the previous prologues at all.

I feel we have two general possibilities here:

1) Gavilar is exactly how we see him. He knows exactly who Amaram is and the strong desire to arrange the marriage is based on that. He wants to tame Jasnah, silence her or simply wants political influence and doesn't care about anything else.

2) Gavilar cares about Jasnah. He's worried she's an outcast and wants to marry her to one of his closest hoping that would be good for her. We don't know how much him and Amaram have mingled so he might be as blind as Dalinar regarding his real nature. 

Obviously there's a lot we don't know about Jasnah's past but she seems to genuinely love him, which speaks volumes as we're talking about Jasnah and feelings. In any case for a person who moved to the next level and left all the mundane tasks to his subordinates it seems this one particular thing still stands out as pretty important to him.

Quick tinfoil again. Seeing as how increasingly more poorly he's been portrayed maybe the strange/secret condition Jasnah had was just him abusing her in some way which is why she developed some sort of Stockholm syndrome.

4 hours ago, Karger said:

As far as illegitimate Kholin theories go this one makes much more sense but stongly doubt it...

I'm definitely not too serious about it. Although ин мъ минд Gavinor definitely вилл have more of a role in the second half of the series, he'll be in his early teens he has the background and we will likely see him here and there until the end of book 5 too. It also only seems logical that this very obvious conflict is at least brought up if nothing else. Like "Auntie, how come you changed the law and skipped me for the throne?"

[Harbour]

Btw, prologue indicates Brandon didnt drop that Kaladin-Shallan-Adolin/Dalinar-Navani-Gavilar parallels. I dont see the point of repeating the same "Dalinar with his simmering passionate eyes" descriptions given that Navani and Dalinar are currently happy together if not as a set up for another round of character drama.

 Now, dodging obvious pairing war, this makes me worried what Book 4 has in its sleeve for Adolin-Shallan family.

You see, while traditional parallel was Kaladin-Dalinar (passionate, center of everything, attracting people), Shallan-Navani (PoV), Adolin-Gavilar (More safe, more influential), this prologue switched Navani and Gavilar positions in grand scheme of things.

Its not Navani who keep secrets and tell lies - its Gavilar. This is a relevant nuance. Its Navani-Adolin/Shallan-Gavilar dynamic now. Gavilar keeps secrets from Navani, Shallan keeps secrets from Adolin. Gavilar and Shallan tell lies. 

And we see how Gavilar keeping secrets and pushing Navani away deeming he untruthworthy make me worried. It was clear intention on Brandon part to tell repeatedly in this prologue how Gavilar lies and keeps secret and makes Navani suffer. Given their similarity to Shallan and Adolin, i predict Brandon will create the same dynamic between Shallan and Adolin. Adolin would want Shallan to be completely open and Shallan would struggle to do it, making Adolin suffer.

Will they successfully go through it unlike Gavilar and Navani is different matter, but right now prologue made me worry about Adolin. I dont want Shallan to make him feel the way Navani felt about Gavilar in prologue.

[+Oltux72]

9 hours ago, Firespir said:

One thing in particular struck me as very odd is his strong desire to marry Jasnah to Amaram.

She is a problem. She is rumored to be mad, a heretic, approaching spinsterhood and there are not all that many candidates of her rank whom Gavilar wants an alliance with, due to simple numbers. And whatever her deficiencies are, as soon as she is married, they are no longer his problems. Her husband would be stuck with them.
The alternative explanation would be that he suspected her to be bonding a spren, meaning that he needs to keep her close.
Thirdly he may fail to achieve immortality. He needs an heir and Elhokar is questionable. Meridas Amaram is a plausible regent for his grandson. These possibilities are not mutually exclusive.

9 hours ago, Firespir said:

He all but left all the ruling to Navani and the others because in his own words " I have discovered the entrance to the realm of gods and legends, and once I join them, my kingdom will never end. I will never end." So, what's the big deal if Jasnah is married or not? That just seems like one other mundane task to leave to someone else. Something smells fishy here.

Even if he became immortal, she would still be an image problem. A king who cannot find a husband for his whacko daughter has an image issue, especially if he cannot keep his wife from straying (at least mentally). He is pissed with the women in his family and the anger is grounded in reality. It would have been Navani's duty to prepare Jasnah for accepting a suitable husband.

9 hours ago, Firespir said:

And a quick tinfoil theory. So, it's been pointed several times that Aesudan is not too invested in Elhokar, spends too much time with other men, their marriage is political etc. What if (a good soap opera twist) Gavinor is not Elhokar's son.

I am afraid we are talking about Jasnah. He would suffer a regrettable, fatal childhood illness.

1 hour ago, Firespir said:

Obviously there's a lot we don't know about Jasnah's past but she seems to genuinely love him, which speaks volumes as we're talking about Jasnah and feelings.

Jasnah was seeing things that are not there. Visions are not a good thing under Vorinism. Yet she does not end up in an asylum like Taln. She has a reason to love her father.

[Harold]

5 hours ago, Firespir said:

2) Gavilar cares about Jasnah. He's worried she's an outcast and wants to marry her to one of his closest hoping that would be good for her. We don't know how much him and Amaram have mingled so he might be as blind as Dalinar regarding his real nature. 

I think this might be the main reason but through different reasoning than you've presented here.

I think Gavilar wants to marry Jasnah to Amaram because he cares about her. However, he wants this because he knows that what he's doing is risky, but he also believes in it strongly. He is envisioning a future where he is harnessing the powers of powerful spren, using it for world travelling, potential immortality and bringing about the desolations/voidbringers. This is a dangerous world and a dangerous goal, but if Jasnah were to marry his right-hand man she would be in a greater position of power and safety. He cares for her so he wants her to be safe and to protect her future.

Edited July 27, 2020 by Harold
spelling

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Harold said:

I think this might be the main reason but through different reasoning than you've presented here.

I think Gavilar wants to marry Jasnah to Amaram because he cares about her. However, he wants this because he knows that what he's doing is risky, but he also believes in it strongly. He is envisioning a future where he is harnessing the powers of powerful spren, using it for world travelling, potential immortality and bringing about the desolations/voidbringers. This is a dangerous world and a dangerous goal, but if Jasnah were to marry his right-hand man she would be in a greater position of power and safety. He cares for her so he wants her to be safe and to protect her future.

I gotta say, I personally really don't see this being the case. First and foremost, you don't speak about someone you love and care for this way:

 

“Speak to your daughter,” Gavilar said, turning toward the door. “I believe I have managed to soothe Amaram’s pride. He might take her back, and her time is running out. Few other suitors will consider her; I’ll likely need to pay half the kingdom to get rid of the girl if she denies Meridas again.”

 

She is "Navani's" daughter. Not his. He is trying to get rid of her, by his own words. That does not sound like someone doing it with her best interests in mind. 

Secondly, Jasnah is the daughter to the king and thereby a princess. Amaram at the time was a high marshal if I remember correctly. He is literally far below her in socio and economic standing. Jasnah marrying Amaram secures his future, not hers. 

[Firespir]

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

She is a problem. She is rumored to be mad, a heretic, approaching spinsterhood and there are not all that many candidates of her rank whom Gavilar wants an alliance with, due to simple numbers...

Even if he became immortal, she would still be an image problem. A king who cannot find a husband for his whacko daughter has an image issue, especially if he cannot keep his wife from straying (at least mentally). He is pissed with the women in his family and the anger is grounded in reality. It would have been Navani's duty to prepare Jasnah for accepting a suitable husband.

Is she really a problem though? That's exactly my point. What does he care about rumors or his current reputation really? From what he says Gavilar is already above such simple earthly (Rosharly? Rosharian??) deeds. "...I have discovered the entrance to the realm of gods and legends, and once I join them, my kingdom will never end. I will never end...” He ignores his guests, doesn't give audiences, can't be bothered to settle a border dispute and most importantly he doesn't care about Navani's threats that she can ruin his legacy, otherwise he'd threat her better. And what are some rumors about his daughters marriage or lack thereof, compared to that. The way I see it, what he does next will elevate him to such an extent that it will outshine everything else and anyone can say w/e they want. 

That's what my original point was about that there's a very specific reason he focuses on the marriage thing.

 

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Jasnah was seeing things that are not there. Visions are not a good thing under Vorinism. Yet she does not end up in an asylum like Taln. She has a reason to love her father.

Yeah, I think it's more complex than that and I'm not sure she was actually having visions. She herself has said that she was locked in a dark room during that time and the people she loved could hurt her.

[Karger]

9 hours ago, Firespir said:

I agree that there's certainly some misogyny or ill advised arrogance on Gavilar's side. Still I think it will be kind of bland if it turns out he was a bad guy all along and he hid it. Again for all we know so far it appears there really wasn't enough time for them to grow apart the usual way, so the logical conclusion is that something drastic happened in order for him to shift personalities so rapidly. I certainly don't want a grand redemption arc either but it will be nice if the events unfold with the adequate complexity. Definitely adds more realism.

I don't think he was simply a "bad guy" all along.  I think that he had a few nastier qualities that he hid either under his charisma or because he knew they would be a liability politically.  His sudden change was likely less sudden then we think.  It probably started because of the Stormfather's visions. 

9 hours ago, Firespir said:

1) Gavilar is exactly how we see him. He knows exactly who Amaram is and the strong desire to arrange the marriage is based on that. He wants to tame Jasnah, silence her or simply wants political influence and doesn't care about anything else.

I think this one is much more likely. 

9 hours ago, Harbour said:

Given their similarity to Shallan and Adolin, i predict Brandon will create the same dynamic between Shallan and Adolin. Adolin would want Shallan to be completely open and Shallan would struggle to do it, making Adolin suffer.

I think they key difference here is that Adolin knows how hard it is for Shallan to be honest not just with him but with herself.  Also as of OB she is clearly trying to be more open with him.

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Secondly, Jasnah is the daughter to the king and thereby a princess. Amaram at the time was a high marshal if I remember correctly. He is literally far below her in socio and economic standing. Jasnah marrying Amaram secures his future, not hers. 

I agree with all your other points although technically she and Amaram are both of the third Dahn.  This makes their relationship plausible if not ideal.

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

I agree with all your other points although technically she and Amaram are both of the third Dahn.  This makes their relationship plausible if not ideal.

Based on the WoB below Amaram (at the time of the prologue), was of the 4th, or 5th dahn. Remember it wasn't till "recent" that Amaram earned a sharblade and plate to travel to the shattered plains. The territory Amaram defended was owned by Sadeas. If you refer to the flashbacks of Kaladin, Amaram is referred to as a brightlord. In the "present day" as Kaladin travels to the Shattered Plains, Amaram is referred to as "Highlord". So as of the time Gavilar was trying to set up Amaram and Jasnah, Amaram was not 3rd dahn.

 

Shagomir

Here's the best I can do at what each of the dahns includes, without spoilers. Stuff in italics is unconfirmed but is reasonable to guess based on the information we have from the books and Brandon.

• 1st Dahn: The King and the King's direct heir.
• 2nd Dahn: Highprinces, their direct heirs, and the King's direct heir*.
• 3rd Dahn: Generals?, Highlords, and the non-inheriting children of 1st and 2nd dahn lighteyes.
• 4th Dahn: Battalionlords, Citylords, Shardbearers, and other mid-ranked nobles.
• 5th Dahn: Companylords?, along with lower-ranked nobles.
• 6th Dahn: Captainlords, along with the lowest-ranked nobles and landholders?
• 7th Dahn: Lower-ranking landless officers, along with higher-ranking (or very wealthy) landless lighteyes?
• 8th Dahn: Soldiers, along with high-ranking (or moderately wealthy) landless lighteyes?
• 9th Dahn: Landless lighteyes with some wealth, like merchants and master craftsmen.
• 10th Dahn: "Tenners", essentially any lighteyes who has to work for a living.

Brandon Sanderson

I'm very impressed by this list. You did a great job. Note that only the king is first Dahn under the Alethi system, however. His heir is second, until crowned. Sixth Dahn, as you've identified, is the "landed" cutoff--if you have land, even a little, you're at least Sixth Dahn.

If you were of a specific dahn (say, seventh) but were elevated by something unusual (say, you got appointed to an appointment that would raise you above this) your children will often be elevated to a rank just beneath you. So, for instance, if a tenner got a shard, he'd immediately be elevated to fourth, and his family would likely be elevated to fifth.

The only thing I'd offer a warning on is that sometimes, people shortcut "Captainlord" to just "Captain" which drives Peter crazy, and so it can be hard to pick out rank from title.

Oudeis16

That's interesting... so, is the dahn system new since Alethkar was unified? Or was it modified once they got a king? Or was it always this way, and there just used to not be someone at the 1st Dahn?

Brandon Sanderson

Kings existed in other places, and had existed in Alethkar before. (Dahn is a Vorin cultural ideal, not just Alethi.) So the system is not new, but for many years, the Alethi refused to accept a king. (Following the division of the kingdom among the Sunmaker's sons.)

Oudeis16

Oooooooh... fascinating. So, this implies that before Gavilar unified Alethkar, King Taravangian and the King of Jah Keved would both have been First Dahn, while the highest-ranked ten people in Alethkar were only Second Dahn. Interesting. In the interests of adding a few more names to the list of "known people of the First Dahn" on the Coppermind, would you be willing to confirm if King Taravangian (let's say at the start of the Way of Kings to avoid spoilers) was First Dahn?

Brandon Sanderson

Traditionally, the monarchs of city-states (like Kharbranth, Bavland, and at some points Silnasen) do not claim the first dahn. There have been leaders of New Natanan who have, same with Herdaz. Depends on how much they want to aggravate the Alethi.

Unification era, there'd be two people of the first dahn: The queen of Thaylenah and the king of Jah Keved. Non-vorin monarchs in the west would be treated like first dahn, sometimes, depending on the situation.

Oudeis16

Did we know that Thaylenah is currently ruled by a Queen, or is this a small tidbit you have just given us?

Brandon Sanderson

I'm not sure if I've mentioned it or not, honestly. Queen Fen. You'll get to meet her soon. Note that Thaylenah is kind of a plutocracy, with merchant councils holding a lot of power, which changes its dynamic a little when compared to Alethi or Jah Keved.

Shagomir

I see you may have sneakily included an explanation for the 4th/5th dahn thing I noticed in a certain father-daughter duo. I promise not to read too much into it....

Brandon Sanderson

Note that getting a Shardblade isn't the only reason someone could be elevated, and isn't the only reason why children might not be the same dahn as their parent. Most of it has to do with titles, and who inherits, and that sort of thing. The answer is probably more boring than you're hoping.

xland44

Not sure if this is entering RAFO territory, but are highprince candidates (that is, people who can be elevated to highprince status if the post is empty) only people from the 3rd dahn? Or can a 4th dahn also be elevated to highprince, for example?

Brandon Sanderson

Highprince is a tricky one, as the definition of "highprince" is a person who can convince others to call him by the title. I guess that's the same for all of them, but as highprinces tend to be near the top of the pecking order, it's more about military than anything else.

Gavilar was 4th dahn before becoming highprince, for example. His branch of the Kholin family wasn't considered a prime contender for the highprince throne--until he took it for himself.

Enasor

His branch of the Kholin family? Does this imply there are other branches of the Kholin family? Meaning, there are other Kholins elsewhere?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, not as many as there once were...

uchoo786

So if I'm understanding this correctly, before Gavilar's branch of the Kholin family started their conquest of Alethkar they conquered Kholinar?

Brandon Sanderson

Yup. (There's some minor mention of this in Book Three, I believe.)

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