RoW Prologue and Chapter 1 Discussion

[agrabes]

1 hour ago, Q10fanatic said:

Who decides what is meaningful? Lirin? I suspect that the Herdazian fighters have a different view. I suspect some of the refugees agreed with the fighting, with the idea of defending their homeland and cultural traditions. 

 

I strongly disagree with this. The humans are now being treated roughly like the Parshmen used to be treated. Perhaps marginally better, but still somewhere between a permanent underclass and slaves. The threat of instant death from Fused or high-ranking listeners is everywhere for the conquered humans. They know their work, their supplies, and their crops go to the benefit of the Fused, who are waging a war of extinction against the humans. Odium plans to wipe out all life on Roshar, as he showed to Dalinar. Lirin's philosophy only makes sense because he does not understand the true stakes of the conflict.

 

I think each person can decide for themselves what is meaningful.  But they should think about it in concrete terms, not abstract.  In other words - is it more valuable to defend the abstract idea of the country of Herdaz or the concrete objects of life and limb?  Some people, knowing all the factors, may still choose to value abstract ideas over concrete ideas.  But Lirin's whole point is each person needs to think about that, what it really means to sacrifice your life and possibly even the lives of your family and countrymen just so you can hold to a few cultural traditions or preserve a line on a map.  

To say the humans are now being treated roughly like the Parshmen used to be treated has not been shown in any of the excerpts from RoW.  In Moash's POVs in OB (at least in my memory) we see that as the Singers first take over, they do put the humans to work.  But for most of the humans, that's no different than what they were doing before.  Working, in a career they had little choice over, without the ability to move around and go elsewhere.  They make a point of showing in OB that the treatment from the Fused or leaders of the Singers is not all that different from the treatment they got from the Alethi Lighteyes.  This makes sense because the Singers would have learned their leadership style from those Lighteyes.  Lirin says in RoW Ch. 1 that they are keeping a close eye on refugees - which is a legitimate war time need.  Those refugees could easily be enemy combatants.  In fact, we're shown that some are.  You also see that Lirin is still placed in a trusted position based on his skills and capabilities, despite being human.  He doesn't have a Singer breathing down his neck.  The threat of instant death is not everywhere for the conquered humans.  It has not been shown that the Fused or any Singers have indiscriminately killed any humans, to my memory.  They have only killed or harmed those who are involved with active rebellion or military resistance. 

It has also not been shown that Odium plans to wipe out all life on Roshar, nor has it been shown that the Fused are waging a war of extinction against the humans.  This may be your personal theory, which is fine, but it seems most likely that Odium's only goal is to shatter Cultivation and then leave Roshar to shatter the other Shards.  The Fused themselves may want to kill all humans (we don't even know if that's true or not), but they are a small minority of the Singers/Listeners/Parsh.  It's pretty likely that if the humans are defeated militarily, the Singers would settle for being rulers over the humans and not continue a war to kill them all.

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Time to respond to EVERYBODY!

That may be partly true but I do think he underestimates her.  He sounds to me like on of those great military or business minds that does not really appreciate the value of bureaucracy or if he does assumes that it is a clever arrangement of "little people" who get work done by advantage of their numbers.  Useful and maybe vital but really just the grunt work of government.  I also do think he is a bit of a misogynist given how he regards Jasnah and we already knew he was a megalomaniac with sociopathic tendencies.

I think it's definitely a valid interpretation of it, but I didn't get that from my read.  I took it as him understanding the value of that stuff, but feeling that Navani is good at it and has it handled.  Navani says they used to plot and scheme together, which to me says he knew the value of what she was doing for him.  I think he's just so focused on whatever he is doing with the Heralds that he is neglecting her now and assuming she will just take care of all of it for him because she always has.  Just another source and/or symptom of friction in their marriage.  

[Karger]

12 minutes ago, agrabes said:

It has also not been shown that Odium plans to wipe out all life on Roshar

He has said that he wants to kill the stormfather and Cultivation.  Doing so would actually wipe out all of the life on Roshar.

13 minutes ago, agrabes said:

nor has it been shown that the Fused are waging a war of extinction against the humans

Several fused do say that extermination of humans is the only final solution.

13 minutes ago, agrabes said:

I took it as him understanding the value of that stuff, but feeling that Navani is good at it and has it handled

Then why does he not say so?  He could easily forestall the entire argument by just saying "You were more then capable Navani.  I trusted you to handle it.  You have no reason to bother me."

[+Oltux72]

26 minutes ago, Singer said:

You can, of course, continue to read Lirin's perspective as cowardly. There isn't a wrong way to read a book, but I thought a different perspective on him might add to the discussion in a positive way.

I am afraid I will have to disagree. Lirin is ready to take personal risks to keep people safe. Coward does not fit.

Yet his attitude is a slave's attitude. Yes, his people will live, as long as they do not bother their masters. But will they ever be free? Probably not. If you refuse to fight, why not take any possible advantage of you? Why not take your money? Or your daughter, for that matter? It is hard to impossible to say that some injustices are worth fighting for but others are not. In the end all rules need somebody willing to enforce them. And that will need a readiness to resort to violence.

[agrabes]

3 minutes ago, Karger said:

He has said that he wants to kill the stormfather and Cultivation.  Doing so would actually wipe out all of the life on Roshar.

Several fused do say that extermination of humans is the only final solution.

Then why does he not say so?  He could easily forestall the entire argument by just saying "You were more then capable Navani.  I trusted you to handle it.  You have no reason to bother me."

Do we know that killing the Stormfather and shattering Cultivation would wipe out all life on Roshar?  It would definitely mess up the environment, but not the same as killing all life.  Also, it seems like from what we know in Elantris that just splintering the shard does not destroy its investure.  It just severs it from the intelligence of main Shard and leaves it to sort go based on physics or whatever you want to call it in the Cosmere.  I think that Humans and Singers would survive the death of the Stormfather and Cultivation, but it would be a very different life.

Some Fused want to exterminate humans.  But we also know some are gone mad with bloodlust.  I always took that to be a sign of the crazy ones if they want nothing more than to kill.  I think we are shown some who don't want to exterminate all humans.

I guess the whole point being - we shouldn't assume that everyone and everything dies if Odium or the Singers win.  And more importantly, we shouldn't assume that the loss of one small country will result in that fate.  Accept the loss, retreat and consolidate forces at Urithiru.  Fight when you can win, or you have no other choice.  

 

As for Gavilar/Navani - the reason he doesn't say so is because they're in a rocky marriage.  Communication has broken down.  Also - I don't think it would have forestalled the whole argument even if he had said it.  She would have still been mad at him for shutting her out of his exciting secret plans and making her sacrifice her own goals in order to fulfill all of his more boring responsibilities for no good reason, or at least none he's willing to tell her.  This kind of lack of communication is SUPER common in real marriages.  It's easy for people to take the ones closest to them for granted.  I've personally made this exact mistake and it's led to this same kind of misunderstanding.  It feels totally realistic for Gavilar to have this flaw.

[+Q10fanatic]

18 minutes ago, agrabes said:

As for Gavilar/Navani - the reason he doesn't say so is because they're in a rocky marriage.  Communication has broken down.  Also - I don't think it would have forestalled the whole argument even if he had said it.  She would have still been mad at him for shutting her out of his exciting secret plans and making her sacrifice her own goals in order to fulfill all of his more boring responsibilities for no good reason, or at least none he's willing to tell her.  This kind of lack of communication is SUPER common in real marriages.  It's easy for people to take the ones closest to them for granted.

I guess this comes down to each person's interpretation of the text. I saw this as far more vicious and emotionally violent than a simple lack of communication. You don't have to be overflowing with love and gratitude to show appreciation for someone's well-done job. You do have to be overflowing with contempt and anger to belittle them the way Gavilar did. That's more & worse than a mere lack of communication. That was physical intimidation. If you read that differently, that's your interpretation and valid but I don't think most people read it that way.

Edited July 24, 2020 by Q10fanatic
can't ever remember how to spell "vicious"

[Singer]

20 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

I am afraid I will have to disagree. Lirin is ready to take personal risks to keep people safe. Coward does not fit.

Yet his attitude is a slave's attitude. Yes, his people will live, as long as they do not bother their masters. But will they ever be free? Probably not. If you refuse to fight, why not take any possible advantage of you? Why not take your money? Or your daughter, for that matter? It is hard to impossible to say that some injustices are worth fighting for but others are not. In the end all rules need somebody willing to enforce them. And that will need a readiness to resort to violence.

Lirin certainly inspires good discussion! I am not quite the pacifist he is, but I do see his point. I think for him what is the difference between two different but equally as oppressive regimes? I think certainly light eyed humans would feel oppressed and want to overthrow the Singers, but if you are dark eyed and getting the same oppression either way, does it matter? Is it worth dying and sending your children to die to protect someone else's wealth and ability to oppress you? There isn't a "give me liberty or give me death" option. Just oppressor A vs. Oppressor B. This isn't a freedom fight for Lirin. Putting the light eyes back in charge won't improve his community to his way of thinking at least, and there isn't a single person in Hearthstone proposing something more egalitarian. Whether the situation is the same in Herdaz, I have no idea. Maybe for them it really is a freedom fighters situation, but in Hearthstone? Not so much.

[+Oltux72]

1 minute ago, Q10fanatic said:

I guess this comes down to each person's interpretation of the text. I saw this as far more viscous and emotionally violent than a simple lack of communication.

Gavilar is not OK with the way his wife is looking at Dalinar. Personally and professionally.

[+Q10fanatic]

19 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Do we know that killing the Stormfather and shattering Cultivation would wipe out all life on Roshar? 

The final vision that Dalinar sees in WoK is Honor's warning of what will happen if Odium wins: the entire planet crumbling into dust and disappearing into blackness.

[+Q10fanatic]

4 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Gavilar is not OK with the way his wife is looking at Dalinar. Personally and professionally.

Even profound jealousy does not excuse how he acted, especially since she had previously made clear to him that there had been no infidelity. Besides, he doesn't seem to care if she did cheat, only that it would affect his standing at court. Nothing he says indicates that he cares for her, or her affection. It's a cold and calculated anger, not a fit of jealously. This means his every action was deliberate.

[+Oltux72]

3 minutes ago, Q10fanatic said:

The final vision that Dalinar sees in WoK is Honor's warning of what will happen if Odium wins: the entire planet crumbling into dust and disappearing into blackness.

I am afraid that I need to point out that Honor is hardly an unbiased source of information about Odium. He may be unable to outright lie, but his attitude may shine through.

[GriffinMaze]

2 hours ago, Karger said:

He certainly is not a physical or moral one so I am not sure what you mean.  He is willing to risk his own life to save some one else's and he stands by his beliefs even when confronted by power.

 

1 hour ago, Singer said:

I don't know that I agree with that assessment. He reminds me of my mom. Her older brother suffered serious injuries in the Vietnam war and she worked at the VA hospital for 30 years treating war veterans. When you see that side of warfare, the  human cost of it, for that long it really makes you think differently about what is actually worth sending your young men and women off to die for. So what you perceive as cowardice I perceive as a totally accurate portrayal of a pacifist medical professional. 

You can, of course, continue to read Lirin's perspective as cowardly. There isn't a wrong way to read a book, but I thought a different perspective on him might add to the discussion in a positive way.

“Surely you don’t intend to obey these monsters.”

“I obey the person who holds the sword to my neck, General,” Lirin said. “Same as I always have.”

 

He's a coward

[Karger]

27 minutes ago, agrabes said:

I think that Humans and Singers would survive the death of the Stormfather and Cultivation, but it would be a very different life.

different = apocalyptic?  The stormfather regulates the highstorms.  What happens if those go out of wack?

28 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Some Fused want to exterminate humans.  But we also know some are gone mad with bloodlust.  I always took that to be a sign of the crazy ones if they want nothing more than to kill.  I think we are shown some who don't want to exterminate all humans.

Just enslave them YaY!

29 minutes ago, agrabes said:

I guess the whole point being - we shouldn't assume that everyone and everything dies if Odium or the Singers win.  And more importantly, we shouldn't assume that the loss of one small country will result in that fate.  Accept the loss, retreat and consolidate forces at Urithiru.  Fight when you can win, or you have no other choice.  

That makes somewhat more sense.  However if the fused are acting as an actual military force and Herdez's resistance is made of volunteers then everyone participating in the conflict is doing so of their own volition. 

8 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

I am afraid that I need to point out that Honor is hardly an unbiased source of information about Odium. He may be unable to outright lie, but his attitude may shine through.

I don't think Honor would want to delude his own champions.  He would need to be brutally honest about what they are fighting against.

3 minutes ago, GriffinMaze said:

“Surely you don’t intend to obey these monsters.”

“I obey the person who holds the sword to my neck, General,” Lirin said. “Same as I always have.”

 

He's a coward

He risks his own life to help a total stranger.

[Raphaborn]

6 minutes ago, GriffinMaze said:

 

“Surely you don’t intend to obey these monsters.”

“I obey the person who holds the sword to my neck, General,” Lirin said. “Same as I always have.”

 

He's a coward

He's clever, a coward would be hiding protected by the superpowered son and not saving people. You really need to reexamine the concept of cowardice.

Edited July 24, 2020 by Raphaborn

[GriffinMaze]

3 minutes ago, Karger said:

He risks his own life to help a total stranger.

That does not keep him from being a coward in my eyes. He's 'risking his life' by not betraying the military leader of a resistance on the side of good. If he DID betray him, he would be a servant of evil.

 

Quote

He's clever, a coward would be hiding protected by the superpowered son and not saving people. You really need to reexamine the concept of cowardice.

Just because he's not hiding behind Kaladin doesn't make him not a coward. 

Edited July 24, 2020 by GriffinMaze

[Raphaborn]

1 minute ago, GriffinMaze said:

That does not keep him from being a coward in my eyes. He's 'risking his life' by not betraying the military leader of a resistance on the side of good. If he DID betray him, he would be a servant of evil.

A coward would be concerned with survive, not with not being a servant of evil.

Edited July 24, 2020 by Raphaborn

[Kuram]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

He has said that he wants to kill the stormfather and Cultivation.  Doing so would actually wipe out all of the life on Roshar.

I doubt that.  The storm would still exist.  The stormfather exists within the storm but he isn't the storm itself.

And Lirin isn't a coward, that's ridiculous.  He's certainly pragmatic, but he has no qualms with working against the Singers.  He's just not a fighter.  What would standing up do beyond get himself killed and take away a doctor from all the refugees who could need his help.

Edited July 24, 2020 by Kuram

[GriffinMaze]

Just now, Raphaborn said:

A coward would be concerned with living, not with not being a servant of evil.

“I obey the person who holds the sword to my neck, General,” Lirin said. “Same as I always have.”

 

Lol exactly what he's doing?? Keeping his head down and just doing what he's told like a good little boy and not rocking the boat of his Fused master

[Raphaborn]

Lirin was always a rebel. He never bothered to go against Roshone, despite all the threats. When his neighbors went to his house to try to get the gems out of him, he faced them head on. He is currently helping to save refugees, and hiding a general even at the cost of his life.
He's a surgeon, not a warrior. Facing the Parshendi will only end with him dead, or forbidden to help people. He's just not an idiot.

[Karger]

6 minutes ago, GriffinMaze said:

That does not keep him from being a coward in my eyes. He's 'risking his life' by not betraying the military leader of a resistance on the side of good. If he DID betray him, he would be a servant of evil.

3 minutes ago, GriffinMaze said:

Lol exactly what he's doing?? Keeping his head down and just doing what he's told like a good little boy and not rocking the boat of his Fused master

He is also personally sneaking him and his man to safety.  That entails personal risk and would probably his own execution if discovered.

4 minutes ago, Kuram said:

I doubt that.  The storm would still exist.  The stormfather exists within the storm but he isn't the storm itself.

He sends the storms.  It is in the name.

Edited July 24, 2020 by Karger

[Innovation]

The sword isn’t just at his neck, it is also at his family’s. The fact that he is willing to risk his and his family’s lives for a cause shows true bravery. 

Edited July 24, 2020 by Innovation

[Raphaborn]

1 minute ago, Innovation said:

The sword isn’t just at his neck, it is also at his family’s. The fact that he is willing to risk his and his family’s lives for a cause shows true bravery. 

No, it seems that he should pick up a stick from the ground and fight armed guards, even with no combat experience. Because that would be brave, and not stupid.

[Kuram]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

He sends the storms.  It is in the name.

There's no reason to believe the storms wouldn't come without his input.  It predates the shattering, after all.

[+Q10fanatic]

Lirin is an unknown and his pacifism makes him an unreliable ally for anyone that might need him in an unexpected combat situation. He is willing to risk his life to help others if it does not directly lead to more violence. I think his philosophy is unhelpful in a warzone, but I don't believe he qualifies as a coward in our world. He would be denounced as a coward by the vast majority of Alethi.

21 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

I am afraid that I need to point out that Honor is hardly an unbiased source of information about Odium. He may be unable to outright lie, but his attitude may shine through.

If we're going to both-sides Honor, then I'm not sure how you can have faith in anything any character says. Also, do you agree that the stakes of this war do not include extinction and destruction of the planet?

[Karger]

1 minute ago, Kuram said:

There's no reason to believe the storms wouldn't come without his input.  It predates the shattering, after all.

So does he.

1 minute ago, Q10fanatic said:

Lirin is an unknown and his pacifism makes him an unreliable ally for anyone that might need him in an unexpected combat situation. He is willing to risk his life to help others if it does not directly lead to more violence.

Lirin would have no problem healing a soldier who intended to keep fighting.  He would also not have any problem doing so to an enemy soldier.  I personally would keep him around if he was near my army because he reduces total casualties.

[Kuram]

So far we've seen no evidence to suggest that Spren can exist independently as physical phenomenon, so I lean towards Stormfather being of the storm and not the storm itself.