RoW Prologue and Chapter 1 Discussion

[Chaos]

Here's a discussion thread on RoW Prologue and Chapter 1. You can read them here: https://www.tor.com/2020/07/23/read-rhythm-of-war-by-brandon-sanderson-prologue-and-chapter-one/

A new chapter (or two) will go live every Tuesday at 9am Eastern.

[+Child of Hodor]

Thanks for linking this! When Brandon said “soon” I figured August. What a nice surprise.

Gavilar comes across really poorly in this one, again. Not as badly as in OB prologue. He’s clearly smarter and more informed than he seemed previously.

Found the realm of gods and going to be become one? Has he figured out enough about his bond with the Stormfather that he thinks he can Ascend to Honor?

My theory is he wants to be Moses and lead his people out of Roshar to a more hospitable system. That’s the great  journey he wants to start. 

Edited July 24, 2020 by Child of Hodor

[Karger]

Poor Navani.  Also good for you Navani!  You never let him defeat you. 

[Pagerunner]

Most of this has been seen before, either through a reading or through the newsletter. I was going to link my previous comments, but I can't find them, so I'll just restate some of them, maybe throwing in a few new ones:

• Is Navani's "impostor syndrome" Unmade influence?
• "Border dispute" might be important, since we've seen the Sons of Honor collecting lots of secret maps. Intentionally misdrawn maps to hide something big, and the Highlord caught on because something was costing him money.
• Gavilar's friends; the same Heralds we'd seen before.

• Quote

  “…Being able to bring them back and forth from Braize doesn’t mean anything,” one said. “It’s too close to be a relevant distance.”

  “It was impossible only a few short years ago,” said a deep, powerful voice. Gavilar. “This is proof. The Connection is not severed, and the box allows for travel. Not yet as far as you’d like, but we must start the journey somewhere.”

  ...

  On the table between Gavilar and the men lay a group of spheres. Navani’s breath caught as she saw them. They were arrayed in a variety of colors and brightness, but several seemed strangely off. They glowed with an inverse of light, as if they were little pits of violet darkness, sucking in the color around them.

  She’d never seen anything like them before, but gemstones with spren trapped inside could have all kinds of odd appearances and effects. Those spheres… they must be meant for fabrials. What was Gavilar doing with spheres, strange light, and distinguished artifabrians? And why wouldn’t he talk to her about—

  The way I understand this: Gavilar has been to Braize, and has captured Voidspren in gemstones. He has some apparatus, a "box," that doesn't sever their natural Connection to Braize, but allows them to be removed and brought back to Roshar. The Heralds are interested in this because they want to get off of Roshar, and are looking for a way to free themselves from their Connection to the planet.

• This big focus on Navani's feelings in this prologue further reinforces to me that she's the third main character of this book. This seems to be setting up a larger character arc, coming to deal with her personal problems of insecurity and people-pleasing.

• Gavilar seems really evil here. I wonder how much of it is an act? If he's trying to drive her away to protect her? If Navani married Gavilar for power, why would Gavilar marry Navani if he truly thinks so little of her?

• Not too many comments from Chapter 1. I think we're setting poor Kaladin up to have a bad time.

• The character heading for Part 1 contains five characters: Kaladin, Shallan, Navani, Venli, and Lirin. I haven't compared those to the character oultline, but we've historically had characters who only get named on one Part because they have a chapter or two. Looking at OB, we've got Jasnah in Part 2 and Navani, Taravangian, and Venli all in part 4. I think Lirin's in the same boat; he gets a chapter to start us off, but I don't think he'll be a feature POV character for the book.

[Innovation]

I’m interested about the epigraphs. Information about Fabrials is very exiting, to me at least. 

8 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

The way I understand this: Gavilar has been to Braize, and has captured Voidspren in gemstones. He has some apparatus, a "box," that doesn't sever their natural Connection to Braize, but allows them to be removed and brought back to Roshar. The Heralds are interested in this because they want to get off of Roshar, and are looking for a way to free themselves from their Connection to the planet.

This seems like a logical conclusion.  Box as in some kind of Fabrial, perhaps?

11 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

Gavilar seems really evil here. I wonder how much of it is an act? If he's trying to drive her away to protect her? If Navani married Gavilar for power, why would Gavilar marry Navani if he truly thinks so little of her?

Navani said in another book that “few knew how cold Gavilar had became.” Perhaps he was not always like this?

[Chiberty]

11 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

 

• The character heading for Part 1 contains five characters: Kaladin, Shallan, Navani, Venli, and Lirin. I haven't compared those to the character oultline, but we've historically had characters who only get named on one Part because they have a chapter or two. Looking at OB, we've got Jasnah in Part 2 and Navani, Taravangian, and Venli all in part 4. I think Lirin's in the same boat; he gets a chapter to start us off, but I don't think he'll be a feature POV character for the book.

On the flip side, looking at WoK Part 1, Cenn isn't named, and that situation is arguably closer to this one than those other 4 you mentioned.

[scm288]

It reads to me like Gavilar's personality has changed rather drastically in a short time beforehand... Here are a few selections:

Quote

She didn’t fight him; he would not react well. He had never used his strength against her, not in that way, but there had been words. Comments. Threats. . . .

All Gavilar cared about was his legacy. He wanted to be known as a great king, a great leader. That drive had always pushed him, but it was growing into something else lately. . . .

He didn’t respond with shouts or rage, but the cold void in his eyes could have consumed continents and left only blackness. He raised his hand to her chin and gently cupped it, a mockery of a once-passionate gesture. . . .

Gavilar was better than this. She suspected he knew it too. . . .

Storms. It seemed not so long ago that they’d sat conspiring together about the kingdom they would forge. Now they barely spoke without reaching for their sharpest knives—stabbing them right into the most painful spots with an accuracy gained only through longtime familiarity.

This, to me, reads like there is more going on here than just faded love. I mean sure, maybe Gavilar is just a mean man who has let power go to his head. But what with his likely visit to Braize, his meddling with Voidlight and Voidspren, and his megalomaniacal ambitions, I suspect that much like Eshonai in Words of Radiance, Gavilar here might be possessed by some sort of force from Odium. He certainly matches Eshonai's mannerisms after she went stormform. (Minus the demonic red eyes, of course.)

[Karger]

28 minutes ago, Innovation said:

This seems like a logical conclusion.  Box as in some kind of Fabrial, perhaps?

Maybe some kind of transportation fabrail?

20 minutes ago, scm288 said:

. I mean sure, maybe Gavilar is just a mean man who has let power go to his head. But what with his likely visit to Braize, his meddling with Voidlight and Voidspren, and his megalomaniacal ambitions

He is a dynasty founder.  One of those "great men" of history.  They were not exactly known for their steadiness, dependability as spouses or generosity to others.

Edited July 24, 2020 by Karger

[+Child of Hodor]

I got the impression he’s been sending spheres with a “box” back and forth to Braize. That’s how he’s infusing gems with voidlight.

The goal is clearly to send humans off world. I’m not sure they are there yet. 

I could be off base, “box” makes me think of something smaller than a human. That might not be the case.

But I wouldn’t think he’d go to Braize himself yet. That’s soooo dangerous. Plus he knows some Heralds. He should know it’s an ice-cold torture planet. 

Then again what we know he’s been planning is incredibly dangerous and he thinks he is about to be a god.  
 

Edited July 24, 2020 by Child of Hodor

[Scriptorian]

My dislike of Gavilar grew throughout the prologue, but the part about forcing Jasnah to marry Amaram made me feel particularly inclined to stab him for some reason.

Also, this line from Gavilar made me think...

Quote

I have discovered the entrance to the realm of gods and legends, and once I join them, my kingdom will never end. I will never end.

specifically of what Gavilar said right before he died in the WoK proloque:

Quote

You can tell ..Thaidakar .. that's he's too late...

So, um, how sure are we that Gavilar is staying dead?

Edited July 24, 2020 by Scriptorian

[+Child of Hodor]

3 minutes ago, Scriptorian said:

 

specifically of what Gavilar said right before he died in the WoK proloque:

So, um, how sure are we that Gavilar is staying dead?

Maybe.
I thought he meant too late in that he already gave Eshonai one of the voidlight spheres or has already set other things in motion to bring back the Fused and such. 

[dgreene196]

13 minutes ago, Scriptorian said:

My dislike of Gavilar grew throughout the prologue, but the part about forcing Jasnah to marry Amaram made me feel particularly inclined to stab him for some reason.

Also, this line from Gavilar made me think...

specifically of what Gavilar said right before he died in the WoK proloque:

So, um, how sure are we that Gavilar is staying dead?

I guess we don't know for certain.  Will we get Gavilar's viewpoint in the Book 5 Prologue?  Do we know that?

With Heralds itching to escape Roshar (and, definitely, the Oathpact), maybe Gavilar was hoping to take on the Oathpact for himself?  Not so much the eternal suffering on Braize part, but the immortal, extremely powerful Herald/Cognitive Shadow part.

[dgreene196]

Also, I wonder if Ulim hitched a ride on one of the spheres to Roshar.  Perhaps Gavilar's primary goal wasn't to bring on the Desolations to return Heralds and Radiants to Roshar (even if Amaram believed that was the case) - maybe he needed all the Heralds to achieve his plan to ascend in some way.

[Lightspine]

4 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Maybe.
I thought he meant too late in that he already gave Eshonai one of the voidlight spheres or has already set other things in motion to bring back the Fused and such. 

My take on this is that he might have been involved with Ulim. It's strongly suspected that Ulim is the voice in the Rhythms telling Klade to buy Szeth, because of Venli's presence. I don't think it's a coincidence that this happened in Kholinar, and that we know Gavilar could transport something between Roshar and Braize. This could explain how Ulim escaped Braize. Also, as far as we know, Ulim only began working with Venli after this event.
What this would mean is that Ulim backstabbed Gavilar by providing the Listeners with the tool they used to assassinate him.

[Innovation]

I agree, Ulim could have came from one of the spheres. 
 

On another topic, wasn’t the Sons of Honor’s goal to bring back the Heralds? If he has evidence that the Heralds seems back, then why continue working for the Desolation? Was he not fully aligned with the Sons of Honor? He did mention Restares as a possible employer of Szeth.

[IcaroRibeiro]

Holy rust this prologue confirmed everything I always thought about Gavilar and never got a proof. Or at least what he become in the end of his life

[Eluvianii]

It seems a touch like cosmic horror to me. Gavilar says Navani wouldn't understand what he was doing, that it would be too much for her, but can he really say, becoming the person he was when he died, that it wasn't too much for him? I don't think he was fit to have the knowledge he found.

[teknopathetic]

2 minutes ago, Eluvianii said:

It seems a touch like cosmic horror to me. Gavilar says Navani wouldn't understand what he was doing, that it would be too much for her, but can he really say, becoming the person he was when he died, that it wasn't too much for him? I don't think he was fit to have the knowledge he found.

Im not sure if Gavilar is really like that, or if an unmade/Braize influence is causing some huge personality changes.

Edited July 24, 2020 by teknopathetic

[Innovation]

I agree, the Unmade are the most likely culprit behind Gavilar’s behavior changes. 

[Red Windrunner]

Keep in mind, Gav became obsessed with the Way of Kings. And his secret is what leads Dalinar to start his study of the book. I think Gavilar is clearly a jerk. But I think he was actively trying to do something good. 

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

I got the impression he’s been sending spheres with a “box” back and forth to Braize. That’s how he’s infusing gems with voidlight.

Voidlight seems sticky somehow.  I don't think obtaining it is that simple.  Otherwise you could use the everstorm to get some.

1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

I could be off base, “box” makes me think of something smaller than a human. That might not be the case.

I think that they call it that to avoid suspicion if they mention something to the wrong person.  Nothing suspicious about boxes after all.

1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

But I wouldn’t think he’d go to Braize himself yet. That’s soooo dangerous. Plus he knows some Heralds. He should know it’s an ice-cold torture planet. 

He might find some kind of idiot who is willing.  Or it might be a split second thing.  Or maybe the "box" is more like a trap that he sends to braize grabs something and comes back.

1 hour ago, Scriptorian said:

So, um, how sure are we that Gavilar is staying dead?

Yes.  I think so.  I doubt he would have sat things out too far.  I think it more likely he was just a megalomaniac.

20 minutes ago, Red Windrunner said:

Keep in mind, Gav became obsessed with the Way of Kings. And his secret is what leads Dalinar to start his study of the book. I think Gavilar is clearly a jerk. But I think he was actively trying to do something good. 

Yeah.  Good as he sees it.  He is a "great man."  He also really wanted to be radiant.

[Eluvianii]

45 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Im not sure if Gavilar is really like that, or if an unmade/Braize influence is causing some huge personality changes.

Might be, but I'm not entirely convinced yet. Knowledge can change a person. Gavilar had a craving for greatness, and he achieved it through Alethkar, but then discovered that was a small thing compared to what is outside. And now he wanted that. I don't think he could accept the fact that all his achievements were meaningless in the bigger scale.

[Karger]

3 minutes ago, Eluvianii said:

Might be, but I'm not entirely convinced yet. Knowledge can change a person. Gavilar had a craving for greatness, and he achieved it through Alethkar, but then discovered that was a small thing compared to what is outside. And now he wanted that. I don't think he could accept the fact that all his achievements were meaningless in the bigger scale.

A megalomaniac undergoing an existential crisis.  Lovely for everyone around them.

[Nathrangking]

The man was a power hungry conqueror. Once he had the power he sought he no longer kept up appearances. He was an abuser of the worst sort. Brandon did a good job in a single chapter making me loath Gavilar with every fiber of my being. Seriously, he wanted Amaram to be his son in law? That would have ended well. Though it explains Jasnah's disdain for him. It also makes a lot of sense Gavilar would only trust Sadeas to a point. Take your fellow son of honor the most disciplined general in Sadeas' camp and align him legally now the man most capable of doing you immediate harm is seemingly taken out of play. He is detestable, but seemingly not a fool. His desire to have a legacy truly made him a dangerous player on Roshar if he had become a bondsmith I shudder to think what might have happened.

[Nymeros]

Dieno enne Calah "The Mink"

Anyone else immediately think of "The Lions of Al Rassan?"