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PleatherDuster

Twinborn and divine influences [Era 2 and Secret History Spoilers]

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Posted (edited)

Has there been any explanation (in the books or elsewhere) why Twinborns might be more susceptible to, lets say, divine intervention (being spoken to or manipulated by ascendants)?   

I may be off in my counting, but I think we have only met 4 Twinborns: Wax, Wayne, Miles, Forch. (coincidence they are all male?). Miles and Wax both have confirmed connections with ascendants (Trell and Harmony). Wayne is crazy and has mentioned hearing voices, so I bet someone has tried speaking to him too (but for what purpose?). First I thought it would have been Harmony (Bleeder/Paalm seems to imply that before she dies), but I also wondered if it might be

Spoiler

Kelsier, since he seems particularly able to speak to people with some crazy.

Forch was criminally insane, and being also Twinborn makes me think he was perhaps controlled by or hearing voices from…Trell or someone. Hopefully not Harmony :unsure:. He speaks as though he's thinking really hard (someone perhaps telling him what to say). Also I think he was possibly up to some Hemalurgy on the little kid he had tied up. Seems like something an "evil voice" would suggest or compel him to do. 

Does being extra "powerful" simply make Twinborn more useful/appealing target for manipulation? Is that why Harmony is compelled to manipulate Wax as opposed to a random metalborn? Is there more to it? It's been hinted that Twinborn have "special effects"--could that be related? Wax's grandma implies there is something bad or dangerous about mixing Allomancy and Feruchemy. Does it make you a little crazy, and that craziness opens you up to control/manipulation by ascendants (as suggested in Secret History).

I'd love to hear your ideas. 

Edited by PleatherDuster
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50 minutes ago, PleatherDuster said:

been hinted that Twinborn have "special effects"--could that be related? Wax's grandma implies there is something bad or dangerous about mixing Allomancy and Feruchemy

Being twinborn gives you a special effect called a resonance.  This is why Wax is an impossibly good marksman for example.  It is odd though that all twinborn seem to hear voices abut I must remark that we have explanations for all of them.  Wayne is crazy because of childhood trauma, Wax uses an earring, and Miles is also insane even if he does not act erratically.

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, PleatherDuster said:

Has there been any explanation (in the books or elsewhere) why Twinborns might be more susceptible to, lets say, divine intervention (being spoken to or manipulated by ascendants)?   

I may be off in my counting, but I think we have only met 4 Twinborns: Wax, Wayne, Miles, Forch. (coincidence they are all male?). Miles and Wax both have confirmed connections with ascendants (Trell and Harmony). Wayne is crazy and has mentioned hearing voices, so I bet someone has tried speaking to him too (but for what purpose?). First I thought it would have been Harmony (Bleeder/Paalm seems to imply that before she dies), but I also wondered if it might be

  Reveal hidden contents

Kelsier, since he seems particularly able to speak to people with some crazy.

Forch was criminally insane, and being also Twinborn makes me think he was perhaps controlled by or hearing voices from…Trell or someone. Hopefully not Harmony :unsure:. He speaks as though he's thinking really hard (someone perhaps telling him what to say). Also I think he was possibly up to some Hemalurgy on the little kid he had tied up. Seems like something an "evil voice" would suggest or compel him to do. 

Does being extra "powerful" simply make Twinborn more useful/appealing target for manipulation? Is that why Harmony is compelled to manipulate Wax as opposed to a random metalborn? Is there more to it? It's been hinted that Twinborn have "special effects"--could that be related? Wax's grandma implies there is something bad or dangerous about mixing Allomancy and Feruchemy. Does it make you a little crazy, and that craziness opens you up to control/manipulation by ascendants (as suggested in Secret History).

I'd love to hear your ideas. 

We know three things make you more susceptible to shardic influence or communication.

 

1. Strong emotion. This is not exclusive to insanity with kelsier and ruin. The other example is a stormlight spoiler. Let me know if you want to know and ill spoiler it.

2. Having spikes.

3. Having a strong connection to a individual/shard/etc. Spook is an example of this

 

Wax had an earring which was once an inquisitor spike. Forch was insane. Miles was spiked and insane. Wayne i dont recall speaking directly to a shard. He has joked about voices but i dont recall a specific instance backed by actual occurrence. If i forgot, please let me know.

Edited by Pathfinder
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13 hours ago, Karger said:

Being twinborn gives you a special effect called a resonance.  This is why Wax is an impossibly good marksman for example.  It is odd though that all twinborn seem to hear voices abut I must remark that we have explanations for all of them.  Wayne is crazy because of childhood trauma, Wax uses an earring, and Miles is also insane even if he does not act erratically.

I am so intrigued by this idea of resonance! Should the resonance "abitility" make sense a combination of the individual allomantic and feruchemical powers? If so, then Wax's amazing marksmanship seems strange as a resonance skill, since it seems unrelated to him being able to feruchemically manipulate his weight.  I can't even imagine what Wayne's resonance could be, stemming from combining Bloodmaking and Sliding (time-bubbles). Hope we find out in the Lost Metal!

 

11 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

We know three things make you more susceptible to shardic influence or communication.

 

1. Strong emotion. This is not exclusive to insanity with kelsier and ruin. The other example is a stormlight spoiler. Let me know if you want to know and ill spoiler it.

2. Having spikes.

3. Having a strong connection to a individual/shard/etc. Spook is an example of this

 

Wax had an earring which was once an inquisitor spike. Forch was insane. Miles was spiked and insane. Wayne i dont recall speaking directly to a shard. He has joked about voices but i dont recall a specific instance backed by actual occurrence. If i forgot, please let me know.

Yes please, on the Stormlight spoiler. 

Was Miles spiked? I don't have a copy of AoL, but I'm not remembering this... Was it retrieved after he was shot? Was it the same material as Bleeder/Paalms spike? Spook was spiked...is the "strong connection" you mention referring to Kelsier?

Part of my interest in this issue of twinborns comes from wondering why exactly Harmony is so invested in Wax. I don't think this has really been addressed. It's like Vin and Ruin (and Preservation). She was chosen as a child. I don't think we know why Perservation "chose" her, but Ruin chose her because she was mistborn (powerful!) and had a seeker sister, meaning she could be spiked (super powerful!). At least that how I'm remembering it, correct me if I'm wrong. 

We have a parallel situation with Wax. Harmony "chose" Wax long ago, perhaps as a child, and has been manipulating/guiding him for a long time. Did he just pick him because he was twinborn, and hence a powerful person to have on his "team"? 

 

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1 hour ago, PleatherDuster said:

Yes please, on the Stormlight spoiler. 

Was Miles spiked? I don't have a copy of AoL, but I'm not remembering this... Was it retrieved after he was shot? Was it the same material as Bleeder/Paalms spike? Spook was spiked...is the "strong connection" you mention referring to Kelsier?

Part of my interest in this issue of twinborns comes from wondering why exactly Harmony is so invested in Wax. I don't think this has really been addressed. It's like Vin and Ruin (and Preservation). She was chosen as a child. I don't think we know why Perservation "chose" her, but Ruin chose her because she was mistborn (powerful!) and had a seeker sister, meaning she could be spiked (super powerful!). At least that how I'm remembering it, correct me if I'm wrong. 

We have a parallel situation with Wax. Harmony "chose" Wax long ago, perhaps as a child, and has been manipulating/guiding him for a long time. Did he just pick him because he was twinborn, and hence a powerful person to have on his "team"? 

 

Miles not only had metal mind bracers, but had spikes as a part of them driven into his arms to prevent them from getting pushed by a coinshot. In addition when he was placed at the firing range, they had removed all his metal minds that they could check for and yet he still healed. Marasi reasoned that he must have concealed others in his body. Yet those too eventually ran out after enough shots. 

Vin was chosen by preservation because of what she would ultimately be able to do in the end against Ruin. Ruin chose her thinking to corrupt and take away Preservations main weapon and turn it into his own, like he did with the original prophesy. 

Wax was chosen by Harmony to help him battle the red influence over the planet. 

Below are quotes from Secret History and Oathbringer that reference two instances where both characters explain that the individual's "openness" enables investiture to enter and manipulate the individual. Both imply it has to do with strong emotion, though the stormlight is more explicit. 

 

Arcanum Unbounded - Secret History Page 329

Spoiler

The man snorted awake; he was supposed to have been on watch, and he stumbled to his feet as his replacement approached. Kelsier regarded the glowing beings, anxious. It had take precious days - during which Ruin had kept him far from Vin - to search out someone in the army who was touched in the head, someone with that distinctive soul of madness. It wasn't that they were broken, as he had once guessed. They were merely.... open. This man, Midge, seemed perfect. He responded to Kelsier's words, but he wasn't so unhinged that the others ignored him.

 

 

Oathbringer page 1092

Spoiler

 

The dark spren flew toward the men, finding welcoming bodies and willing flesh. The red mist made them lust, made their minds open. And the spren, then, bonded to the men, slipping into those open souls.

"Master, you have learned to inhabit humans?" Turash said to Subservience

"Spren have always been able to bond with them, Turash" Odium said "It merely requires the right mindset and the right environment."

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Marasi reasoned that he must have concealed others in his body

Idle thought, but maybe that was actually a side effect of Savantism.

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18 minutes ago, Hoidolasium said:

Idle thought, but maybe that was actually a side effect of Savantism.

Totally understand and interesting thought, but even with savantism, once the power runs out, its out. When spook ran out of tin, he was blind as a bat without it. When a savant pewter thug runs out of pewter, he or she drops dead. I don't see Miles having all his metal minds removed, thereby removing his access to his power, resulting in his healing lasting longer than it would normally. But at this stage we don't know how gold allomantically savants would function, nonetheless feruchemical savants due to compounding. So could be. 

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Hoidolasium said:

Idle thought, but maybe that was actually a side effect of Savantism.

Or an effect or compounding (which I can't quite wrap my head around)?  Or could it have been his resonance?

49 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Totally understand and interesting thought, but even with savantism, once the power runs out, its out. When spook ran out of tin, he was blind as a bat without it. When a savant pewter thug runs out of pewter, he or she drops dead. I don't see Miles having all his metal minds removed, thereby removing his access to his power, resulting in his healing lasting longer than it would normally. But at this stage we don't know how gold allomantically savants would function, nonetheless feruchemical savants due to compounding. So could be. 

Can metalminds be embedded within the body? I feel like that happened to Sazed, maybe, in WoA? But why wouldn't everyone just do that? Seems safer than having a bracelet that can be removed if you're captured. Maybe it only works with certain metals. Oh! random idea: wouldn't the Set have wanted to spike Miles to steal his extra-super healing power? We know they are already interested in Hemalurgy at that point, and healing has to be one of the most desirable abilities. Surely they couldn't resist. (Could they have used hemalurgic bullets to kill him? :blink:) AND in BoM, that New Seran politician lady (Kelesina) had super-powered-up gold healing bracers. Bet they got that power from Miles! 

Edited by PleatherDuster
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11 minutes ago, PleatherDuster said:

Can metalminds be embedded within the body? I feel like that happened to Sazed, maybe, in WoA? But why wouldn't everyone just do that? Seems safer than having a bracelet that can be removed if you're captured.

Hemalurgic spikes allow for being placed in areas that would normally kill you, but results in opening you up to manipulation by Harmony. If you aren't doing it for hemalurgy, and doing it to just keep the objects in place, you need healing. Otherwise all you have is gaping wounds that will get infected. Locations of the body that are pierced, are pierced in such a way so as to allow the skin to heal over and seal the wound. If however you do like Miles and have a brace that drives a spike through your bicept, or forearm, you would not last very long. 

11 minutes ago, PleatherDuster said:

 Oh! random idea: wouldn't the Set have wanted to spike Miles to steal his extra-super healing power? We know they are already interested in Hemalurgy at that point, and healing has to be one of the most desirable abilities. Surely they couldn't resist. (Could they have used hemalurgic bullets to kill him? :blink:) AND in BoM, that New Seran politician lady (Kelesina) had super-powered-up gold healing bracers. Bet they got that power from Miles! 

The mention in BoM that they learned how to steal the ability for health while keeping the individual alive. So theoretically they already had someone or someones for that. 

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1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Marasi reasoned that he must have concealed others in his body. Yet those too eventually ran out after enough shots. 

Of course he has few metalminds inside the body. In Stomach, more specificly. Compounding demands that, he has to swallow few metalminds to burn them - and he dont need burn all of them, he can just tap them. It is possible to tap metalminds in stomach, Sazed did that.

6 minutes ago, PleatherDuster said:

But why wouldn't everyone just do that?

Few reasons:

1. It can be dangerous. Metal can react with acid in stomach. It isnt issue for Gold, but for other metals like Pewter or Cadmium...

2. Metalminds need to be small enough to swallow, and smaller metalminds mean smaller maximum charge.

12 minutes ago, PleatherDuster said:

wouldn't the Set have wanted to spike Miles to steal his extra-super healing power?

Yes, this is very good idea, but only for "standard" gold healing. We even have WoB:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6335

So this mean, Gold Compounder can be spiked for F-Gold, and burn his golden metalminds as Allomancer and heal himself, regenerate his feruchemical abilities. So he can be spiked again. And again, and again...

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I'd say it's not that Twinborn are special in a way that makes it easier for them to be influenced by Shards, but that Twinborn are the most useful tools on that side of Scadrial. Sazed doesn't have a Mistborn to help achieve whatever goals he has and dislikes using Hemalurgy. So, that leaves him with what Kandra are left from before the Catacendre and if he needs someone more powerful, Twinborn are his best option. Trell/The Set were left with the same options until they accumulated enough spikes to make people with three abilities. Though they probably don't completely trust/rely on any people with spikes. Sazed may not be able to control them, but Ruin was able to subtlety influence people and it's likely Sazed is doing the same to any people with Hemalurgic spikes that are acting against his agenda. 

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42 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Yes, this is very good idea, but only for "standard" gold healing. We even have WoB:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6335

So this mean, Gold Compounder can be spiked for F-Gold, and burn his golden metalminds as Allomancer and heal himself, regenerate his feruchemical abilities. So he can be spiked again. And again, and again...

Wow Ok. This is crazy and confusing. I need time to wrap my head around it....but seems like that only works if your Allomantic and Feruchemical metals are the same, yes? So, Miles could potentially do this cause he's double-gold (making him super valuable as a healing spike/medalion maker--he's definitely dead right?)  But, Wayne, in theory could NOT be spiked to steal his F-gold and survive because he could NOT Allomantically burn gold to regenerate.  Wayne could, however, be spiked to steal his A-Bendalloy abilities, and survive with his F-gold intact, yes.

With a twinborn, would the ability that is being "taken" depend on the location on the body that is spiked? Would you by default need two spikes?

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2 minutes ago, PleatherDuster said:

Wow Ok. This is crazy and confusing. I need time to wrap my head around it....but seems like that only works if your Allomantic and Feruchemical metals are the same, yes? So, Miles could potentially do this cause he's double-gold (making him super valuable as a healing spike/medalion maker--he's definitely dead right?)  But, Wayne, in theory could NOT be spiked to steal his F-gold and survive because he could NOT Allomantically burn gold to regenerate.  Wayne could, however, be spiked to steal his A-Bendalloy abilities, and survive with his F-gold intact, yes.

With a twinborn, would the ability that is being "taken" depend on the location on the body that is spiked? Would you by default need two spikes?

Normaly, stealing abilities with spike requires kill. Is possible to not kill with spike during stealing, but this leaves spiked person with permanently damaged soul. I think this should be normally mortal wound - like throu heart. Different abilities are stealed by spikes made from different metals - if you want steal A-Gold, you need Cadmium Spike, if you want steal F-Gold, you need Golden Spike.

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20 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

 Wayne i dont recall speaking directly to a shard. He has joked about voices but i dont recall a specific instance backed by actual occurrence. If i forgot, please let me know.

Re Wayne hearing voices:  There’s a mention of him hearing voices in SoS (he mentions it after Wax and Harmony converse in the carriage). Yes, somewhat jokingly, but I don't think that means it didn't happen. I thought there was a mention in BoM, but I can't dig it up. Somewhat related, after he kills the dad in the Roughs, he continues to hear gunshots for a long time coming from the well where he ditched his gun. That's different than hearing voices, but it struck me as strange. (Actually, I've always though there was something more going on with his reaction to guns that PTSD).

Something else that makes me wonder about Harmony's involvement with Wayne, before Wax gun-spikes Bleeder/Paalm, she says this:

“Still don’t know what to do about Wayne. Couldn’t bring myself to kill him, poor fool. He followed you here, to help you in the city. For that I love him. But he’s still Harmony’s, and so he’s probably better dead than the way he is now.” 

How exactly is he Harmony’s? He’s Harmony’s what? Servant? Follower? (he’s not religious so that seems unlikely).

Actually, when reading that first I thought: Wayne’s a Kandra! Since Harmony sends kandra to do his bidding. He sent Lessie to Wax, perhaps he sent Wayne also. But Kandra can’t be metalborn…unless through hemalurgy, like Bleeder/Palm. He has no visible spikes (at least on his chest or head), but kandra can internalize spikes, so they could be hidden. I do think Wayne as kandra is an interesting idea, HOWEVER, I feel like I’ve seen WoB confirming he’s not kandra. Anyone familiar with this?

Anyways, I digress. I don’t really think Wayne's a kanda, BUT I do think Harmony (or someone) once tried to (or still does) manipulate Wayne. I think a powerful bloodmaker twinborn with (very close) ties to Wax is too tempting of a target for someone not to be trying to influence him. It would be funny if Harmony tried to mold him like he does with Wax, by Wayne was just too crazy to make it worth the effort. 

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20 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

 Wayne i dont recall speaking directly to a shard. He has joked about voices but i dont recall a specific instance backed by actual occurrence. If i forgot, please let me know.

Re Wayne hearing voices:  There’s a mention of him hearing voices in SoS (he mentions it after Wax and Harmony converse in the carriage). Yes, somewhat jokingly, but I don't think that means it didn't happen. I thought there was a mention in BoM, but I can't dig it up. Somewhat related, after he kills the dad in the Roughs, he continues to hear gunshots for a long time coming from the well where he ditched his gun. That's different than hearing voices, but it struck me as strange. (Actually, I've always though there was something more going on with his reaction to guns that PTSD).

Something else that makes me wonder about Harmony's involvement with Wayne, before Wax gun-spikes Bleeder/Paalm, she says this:

“Still don’t know what to do about Wayne. Couldn’t bring myself to kill him, poor fool. He followed you here, to help you in the city. For that I love him. But he’s still Harmony’s, and so he’s probably better dead than the way he is now.” 

How exactly is he Harmony’s? He’s Harmony’s what? Servant? Follower? (he’s not religious so that seems unlikely).

Actually, when reading that first I thought: Wayne’s a Kandra! Since Harmony sends kandra to do his bidding. He sent Lessie to Wax, perhaps he sent Wayne also. But Kandra can’t be metalborn…unless through hemalurgy, like Bleeder/Palm. He has no visible spikes (at least on his chest or head), but kandra can internalize spikes, so they could be hidden. I do think Wayne as kandra is an interesting idea, HOWEVER, I feel like I’ve seen WoB confirming he’s not kandra. Anyone familiar with this?

Anyways, I digress. I don’t really think Wayne's a kanda, BUT I do think Harmony (or someone) once tried to (or still does) manipulate Wayne. I think a powerful bloodmaker twinborn with (very close) ties to Wax is too tempting of a target for someone not to be trying to influence him. It would be funny if Harmony tried to mold him like he does with Wax, by Wayne was just too crazy to make it worth the effort. 

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Earrings and piercings are much more practical than implanting metal objects inside you.

And correction: Wayne could put metals inside himself to have metal minds inside his body. He just couldn't burn them, but with a good study of anatomy he could choose the least harmful places and keep them there. Remember when Sazed was attacked by Marsh? He who chose to withdraw them even against Vin's advice.

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Earrings and piercings are much more practical than implanting metal objects inside you.

And correction: Wayne could put metals inside himself to have metal minds inside his body. He just couldn't burn them, but with a good study of anatomy he could choose the least harmful places and keep them there. Remember when Sazed was attacked by Marsh? He who chose to withdraw them even against Vin's advice.

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