340 posts in this topic

1 minute ago, Illwei said:

Is everyone forgetting about the Korathi Cultist??

No. However, if I was a JP, I would rather lynch someone I suspected that was Jeskeri [where a higher percentage of people are Cultists] than Korathi [where only one out of a large number] because it would be more likely that I hit a Cultist. This is one method of many, and others might take other paths. However, in my opinion, the Korathi Cultist should be lynched after a large quantity of cultists have been purged from the Jeskeri doc.

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10 minutes ago, Gears said:

Could you clarify what exactly you have issues with? And yes, the Ash-Mint switch was incredibly suspicious, but if I was JP, there would be no benefit to switching off of Ash since I would want to lynch Jeskeri to kill cultists. There is of course the possibility that I am a cultist, but if you are Korathi, you have no reason to lynch me.

Sure, though I admit I'm more sensitive to mischaracterisation of my own arguments :P 

21 hours ago, Gears said:

Kasimir votes Sart for their no-lynch proposal.

I think I've had to clear this one up a couple of times already. I wanted to see what Sart had in mind and I voted to call his bluff. Your presentation makes it sound like I objected to the no-lynch proposal off the bat, whereas as I have mentioned previously, Sart used extremely strong and aggressive language and a threat. I wanted to see if he was bluffing or trying to intimidate players off voting (what good would that do?) so I took the bait.

21 hours ago, Gears said:

Hael votes Pyro for claiming in PMs. [If I didn't know that this was true, I would find this suspicious, but Pyro themself verified this.]

For this one, I would argue that working off what we had before Hael clarified later in this cycle, Hael had already made it clear that he wasn't voting because of the claiming qua claiming, he was voting because of a negative gut reaction to Pyro's - urgh, is this even a gambit? Well, shenanigans I suppose. (Though on relooking at Hael's post again, I feel as though Hael has once again shifted position...)

22 hours ago, Gears said:

Sart votes Straw because they think Straw is wrong, but Sart neglects to explain why they think Straw is wrong. 

I would agree with this, except that he did disagree with a specific Straw claim: on Jeskeri self-targeting via Korathi. (In fact, given last cycle, not exactly wrong.) Okay, I'm just gonna post this and come back to things later. Just know I'm wary of you but not outright distrustful.

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Oh shoot I got distracted and completely forgot about the game. Uh...I really don't feel comfortable deciding who to kill because I remember nothing about either of them. I'll just let the tie go I guess.

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Posted (edited)

writeup to come, I woke up 20 minutes ago whoops :P 


Gears was Cultist-killed. They were Korathi
Xino died to the Jeskeri Inquisition. They were a Jeskeri Practitioner. 
Ash died to the Korathi Inquisition. They were Korathi

Vote Count
Illwei (4): Ash, Drake, Gears, Matrim
Ash (4): Elk, Illwei, Pyro, Sart
Sart (3): TJ, Vapor, Hael
Matrim (2): Bard, Kas

Player list, blah blah blah, I’ll edit it in shortly. Go kill each other. :P 

EDIT:

Player List
1. Ashbringer - Korathi

2. @Haelbarde 
3. @Kasimir - Kiean
4. @Devotary of Spontaneity - Serenken
5. @TJ Shade - Aanalan
6. @Lord_Silberfarben - Ashen Silberfarben
7. @Young Bard - Reolene
8. Gears - Korathi
9. Straw - Korathi
10. @Matrim's Dice - Dasehe
11. Xino - Jeskeri Practitioner
12. @Mist - Tamai
13. @StrikerEZ
14. @The Young Pyromancer - Mancia Young
15. Lotus - Jeskeri Practitioner
16. @DrakeMarshall - Merryn
17. @Vapor - Grace
18. Mint - Korathi
19. @Sart - Sevat
20. @Illwei - Avanae
21. @Elkanah - Kaleno

Edited by Elbereth
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Posted (edited)

Dang, Ash was lynched, one of my only decent Korathi reads. Sometimes I hate RNG... 

Xino was an interesting choice for the Jeskeri lynch as he's been completely inactive, though I suppose he theoretically could've been active there. Either way, another JP down!

And Gears, who was one of my JP suspects, albeit a weak one. Huh.

Edit: I've also decided not immediately vote Illwei again, and to see how the cycle progresses and see what they say.

Edited by Matrim's Dice
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[OOC] Woke up with kler migraine again and saw cycle. First thing—I'm surprised xino was lynched. Seemed inactive and Jeskeri would have nothing to lose if they let the filter sort him out. El already clarified that thread activity is required. Wonder if someone tried redirecting. Guess they aren't for Gears's plan after all. Ah well. Not our problem. 

Ash should at least yield more vpyng analysis. As should Geafs, though indirectly since we now know Hears os Korathi.  RIP Gears. Time yo continue your work. As anticipated the cultists continue to target Korathi. 

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45 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Xino was an interesting choice for the Jeskeri lynch as he's been completely inactive, though I suppose he theoretically could've been active there. Either way, another JP down!

Yeah, I'm wondering, I mean, some people assumed that the JP would want to direct the lynch at other JP to eliminate more people, but wouldn't this counter that? Xino (as far as I'm aware) would have died from the inactivity filter, so they would have had the opportunity to eliminate two if they wanted.

 

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1 minute ago, Illwei said:

Yeah, I'm wondering, I mean, some people assumed that the JP would want to direct the lynch at other JP to eliminate more people, but wouldn't this counter that? Xino (as far as I'm aware) would have died from the inactivity filter, so they would have had the opportunity to eliminate two if they wanted.

Not sure what you mean. 

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Posted (edited)

12 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Not sure what you mean. 

Um, maybe kind of like what Kasimir said? 

At least one person has been saying that most likely whoever the JP targets out here in the main lynch would be other JPs, but the fact that they could have gotten rid of two last cycle and chose to only get rid of one makes it seem like they won't be targeting JP (at least mostly?)

Edited by Illwei
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Posted (edited)

11 minutes ago, Illwei said:

At least one person has been saying that most likely whoever the JP targets out here in the main lynch would be other JPs, but the fact that they could have gotten rid of two last cycle and chose to only get rid of one makes it seem like they won't be targeting JP (at least mostly?)

I disagree. This is assuming the JP have control over the main lynch, and when considering that there were almost certainly more Korathi than JP to begin with and the Jeskeri lynch has taken out two, this is definitely not the case. They very well could have targeted Jeskeri in the lynch last cycle. We won't know because we only know the results for 4 votes.

...Which sort of makes me suspect you more, as this seems like an attempted redirect to get my attention off the votes. Maybe not though :P.

28 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

First thing—I'm surprised xino was lynched. Seemed inactive and Jeskeri would have nothing to lose if they let the filter sort him out. El already clarified that thread activity is required. Wonder if someone tried redirecting. Guess they aren't for Gears's plan after all. Ah well. Not our problem. 

So- what are you referring to with 'redirecting' here? Last I checked, there aren't any roles beyond the factions. :P Also- total meta theory here, with no proof- but who's to say Xino wasn't posting in the Jeskeri doc? El did post this in the OP last cycle:

Quote

 the inactivity filter is only satisfied by posting in the thread; activity in docs or PMs does not count.

Which sort of seems like an unnecessary clarification. In wasn't a question that was asked (at least that I know of) and the only person who didn't post in-thread C1 was Xino, a now proven JP. So I'm wondering if he was active in the JP doc, even if that little detail doesn't matter much beyond explaining why he was J-lynched :P 

Edited by Matrim's Dice
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4 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Which sort of makes me suspect you more, as this seems like an attempted redirect to get my attention off the votes. Maybe not though :P.

I guess I'm doing a great job of proving my innocence :P. 

Idk I do think people are focusing too much on the votes - (to clarify - who voted for who) somewhat? so I guess you could technically say it is an attempted redirect to get your attention off the votes? partially? I mean they play a part, but I do seriously doubt that JP will be voting for JP

But honestly I've said that over and over and it's enough already so I'm just going to stop now.

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21 minutes ago, Illwei said:

Um, maybe kind of like what Kasimir said? 

At least one person has been saying that most likely whoever the JP targets out here in the main lynch would be other JPs, but the fact that they could have gotten rid of two last cycle and chose to only get rid of one makes it seem like they won't be targeting JP (at least mostly?)

Hard disagree with your assumption. The people in the Jeskeri doc want to survive as long as possible. While there could be the benefit of hitting a Cultist, it would be incredibly dangerous to double kill in that doc. I'm also presuming that's why they lynched Xino rather than anyone else. If they had, the doc's numbers would have gone down by two instead of one, making the game much easier for the Korathi.

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Just now, Sart said:

Hard disagree with your assumption. The people in the Jeskeri doc want to survive as long as possible. While there could be the benefit of hitting a Cultist, it would be incredibly dangerous to double kill in that doc. I'm also presuming that's why they lynched Xino rather than anyone else. If they had, the doc's numbers would have gone down by two instead of one, making the game much easier for the Korathi.

...Right...which is also why I don't think that JP would lynch themselves during the day? Am I reading your message wrong?

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4 minutes ago, Illwei said:

Idk I do think people are focusing too much on the votes - (to clarify - who voted for who) somewhat?

I mean, I'm focusing on the votes because it's a good way to get analysis.

4 minutes ago, Sart said:

Hard disagree with your assumption.

Which is funny, because just posted that I disagreed with it :P The sides are forming!

5 minutes ago, Sart said:

The people in the Jeskeri doc want to survive as long as possible. While there could be the benefit of hitting a Cultist, it would be incredibly dangerous to double kill in that doc. I'm also presuming that's why they lynched Xino rather than anyone else. If they had, the doc's numbers would have gone down by two instead of one, making the game much easier for the Korathi.

In all seriousness though, this is a good point. Still don't want to assume the Jeskeri will never vote for one of their own though.

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3 minutes ago, Illwei said:

...Right...which is also why I don't think that JP would lynch themselves during the day? Am I reading your message wrong?

Ah. Then I misread your post. My apologies.

2 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

I mean, I'm focusing on the votes because it's a good way to get analysis.

Which is funny, because just posted that I disagreed with it :P The sides are forming!

In all seriousness though, this is a good point. Still don't want to assume the Jeskeri will never vote for one of their own though.

Yeah, this definitely feels like something sides will be drawn on. As the doc dwindles the likelihood goes up, but in the early game, I think it's too risky of a move for them.

@Elbereth

Is there a reason why Hael's vote on me is missing?

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Just now, Sart said:

@Elbereth

Is there a reason why Hael's vote on me is missing?

Because I was in a hurry and my vote counter is precise enough that accidentally putting a space after your name will make it confused. :P I'll add it now.

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Posted (edited)

Wait a second. Something's off with Kasimir's last post in Cycle Two.

Quote
5 hours ago, Gears said:

Could you clarify what exactly you have issues with? And yes, the Ash-Mint switch was incredibly suspicious, but if I was JP, there would be no benefit to switching off of Ash since I would want to lynch Jeskeri to kill cultists. There is of course the possibility that I am a cultist, but if you are Korathi, you have no reason to lynch me.

Sure, though I admit I'm more sensitive to mischaracterisation of my own arguments :P 

On 7/29/2020 at 3:53 PM, Gears said:

Kasimir votes Sart for their no-lynch proposal.

I think I've had to clear this one up a couple of times already. I wanted to see what Sart had in mind and I voted to call his bluff. Your presentation makes it sound like I objected to the no-lynch proposal off the bat, whereas as I have mentioned previously, Sart used extremely strong and aggressive language and a threat. I wanted to see if he was bluffing or trying to intimidate players off voting (what good would that do?) so I took the bait.

On 7/29/2020 at 3:53 PM, Gears said:

Hael votes Pyro for claiming in PMs. [If I didn't know that this was true, I would find this suspicious, but Pyro themself verified this.]

For this one, I would argue that working off what we had before Hael clarified later in this cycle, Hael had already made it clear that he wasn't voting because of the claiming qua claiming, he was voting because of a negative gut reaction to Pyro's - urgh, is this even a gambit? Well, shenanigans I suppose. (Though on relooking at Hael's post again, I feel as though Hael has once again shifted position...)

On 7/29/2020 at 3:53 PM, Gears said:

Sart votes Straw because they think Straw is wrong, but Sart neglects to explain why they think Straw is wrong. 

I would agree with this, except that he did disagree with a specific Straw claim: on Jeskeri self-targeting via Korathi. (In fact, given last cycle, not exactly wrong.) Okay, I'm just gonna post this and come back to things later. Just know I'm wary of you but not outright distrustful.

Here's my problem with this post.

Quote

I would agree with this, except that he did disagree with a specific Straw claim: on Jeskeri self-targeting via Korathi. (In fact, given last cycle, not exactly wrong.) Okay, I'm just gonna post this and come back to things later. Just know I'm wary of you but not outright distrustful.

How does Kasimir know that the Jeskeri doc didn't vote on its members in the main thread? I think the only reasonable explanation is that Kasimir is a Jeskeri Practitioner. I don't think he's a Jeskeri Cultist though, because he was arguing with Gears, the target of the Cultist kill. I need an explanation for this.

Edited by Sart
Typo
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Posted (edited)

53 minutes ago, Sart said:

Wait a second. Something's off with Kasimir's last post in Cycle Two.

Here's my problem with this post.

How does Kasimir know that the Jeskeri doc didn't vote on its members in the main thread? I think the only reasonable explanation is that Kasimir is a Jeskeri Practitioner. I don't think he's a Jeskeri Cultist though, because he was arguing with Gears, the target of the Cultist kill. I need an explanation for this.

I wouldn't believe that someone experienced (wait, Kasimir is an old player, right? well, not Old Old, I don't mean to call anyone old I- nevermind.) but I wouldn't think that him saying that could be anything but intentional, maybe fishing? or maybe wrong wording? or wrong interpretation? Though apparently nobody really noticed it at first...

 

Unrelated: Also one thing I was thinking during this game is "wow, it's a lot more active than the LG i was in" but i I don't know if that's true, or it's just that I'm more active so idk. I went back to tally how many posts people have made and wow does Matrim talk a lot lol

Edited by Illwei
whoops I wrote in caps
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2 minutes ago, Illwei said:

wow does Matrim talk a lot lol

xD totally true though. Might have something to do with me being too young to have a job and being stuck at home all day.

3 minutes ago, Illwei said:

I wouldn't believe that someone experienced (wait, Kasimir is an old player, right? well, not Old Old, I don't mean to call anyone old I- nevermind.) but I wouldn't think that him saying that could be anything but intentional, maybe fishing? or maybe wrong wording? or wrong interpretation? Though apparently nobody really noticed it at first...

might be tunneling, but from my perspective, someone I'm suspicious of defending someone who just had a very good point made against them doesn't look too good. I do want to see @Kasimir's response, though.

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Posted (edited)

16 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

xD totally true though. Might have something to do with me being too young to have a job and being stuck at home all day.

might be tunneling, but from my perspective, someone I'm suspicious of defending someone who just had a very good point made against them doesn't look too good. I do want to see @Kasimir's response, though.

Yeah, I knew that was probably going to happen. I guess if Kasimir gets lynched and turns out to be JP, and I haven't been lynched already, It'll look pretty bad for me. Then again it might be already looking bad for me, so... :P.

Edited by Illwei
commas save lives. ...hopefully mine.
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Alright. I've been skimming a lot, but I think I'm more or less up to speed.

@TJ Shade Re: Village losscon. Sure we don't immediately lose after losing majority, I never said we did, but any "village-like" faction whose main strength is sheer numbers is basically screwed once it loses majority. Hence why our strategy still basically needs to be racing to kill an enemy faction before we lose majority.

Speaking of which. With three factions and only 21 players, I don't think we have a bunch of leeway with mislynches. There should likely be a greater amount of non-Korathi compared to a regular elimination game, and I kind of don't think I'm seeing enough concern with respect to when we might lose control of our own lynch.

With respect to last cycle's lynch, seeing as the tie stuck, I'm gonna soft trust Illwei, I think. I'm pretty sure the 

Being a somewhat weird faction game, I kinda doubt many Jeskeri would feel a need to strongly participate if the lynch was between two Korathi, which is what I suspect was the case. The Practitioners at least should have a motive to be focusing on a different lynch, and they are who we want to catch.

So... Tentatively, I'm looking for either somebody who was around but didn't vote, or somebody who put a vote down but not on one of the main two lynch targets. The behavior that sticks out to me the most is probably Hael's vote. Hopefully setting aside from the fact that I disagreed with lynching Sart D1 and if anything I think the reasons to do so if anything diminished after another cycle, I would argue that most of the other players who were active were casting votes that had a fairly high impact on the lynch outcome.

Domi willing, I will be doing a more full post-by-post reading soon. I've been relatively disengaged from the game's discussion so far, and I think it would probably be valid to suspect me for that, tbh, because I do think it probably fits a pattern of a lot of Jeskeri and I might be willing to extend a slight trust read on Kas for looking for those signs. Except that I kind of do think I have legitimate reasons to have been less active, because I had two final projects to do on Tuesday and two non-school projects that needed doing on Wednesday, and this game has 24 hour cycles. Regardless, I anticipate being able to focus on the game a bit more, now.

Also, I'm inclined to slightly trust read Matrim just for general activity and participation I've seen from them in the thread.

By the same logic, I really don't think this game would be a bad one for contribution crusading. We probably get more out of it than you do most games, because I estimate there's a higher likelihood of seeing teammates defend each other in a faction game, and I also suspect that although it can be easier to find suspicions for more active players that many of the players focusing a lot on the thread are villagers.

I think that's everything.

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5 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

With respect to last cycle's lynch, seeing as the tie stuck, I'm gonna soft trust Illwei, I think. I'm pretty sure the 

By the same logic, I really don't think this game would be a bad one for contribution crusading.

Can I ask what contribution crusading is? 

Also, did you miss a sentence?

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Uh, yeah. Meant to say I'm pretty sure the Jeskeri would've tried harder to protect you if you were Jeskeri. Not sure why that was missing.

Roughly speaking, contribution crusading is when you go out of your way to lynch less active players and keep active ones alive, although there's probably someone around here who's better at explaining it than me.

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Posted (edited)

10 hours ago, Matrim's Dice said:

I disagree. This is assuming the JP have control over the main lynch, and when considering that there were almost certainly more Korathi than JP to begin with and the Jeskeri lynch has taken out two, this is definitely not the case. They very well could have targeted Jeskeri in the lynch last cycle. We won't know because we only know the results for 4 votes.

...Which sort of makes me suspect you more, as this seems like an attempted redirect to get my attention off the votes. Maybe not though :P.

So- what are you referring to with 'redirecting' here? Last I checked, there aren't any roles beyond the factions. :P Also- total meta theory here, with no proof- but who's to say Xino wasn't posting in the Jeskeri doc? El did post this in the OP last cycle:

Which sort of seems like an unnecessary clarification. In wasn't a question that was asked (at least that I know of) and the only person who didn't post in-thread C1 was Xino, a now proven JP. So I'm wondering if he was active in the JP doc, even if that little detail doesn't matter much beyond explaining why he was J-lynched :P 

[OOC] He might have been. I didn't mention it in-thread but El's clarification made me also look at those peripheral voters in my notes and to flag those with low thread activity. I was not interested in further pursuing it because that is kind of exploiting meta-reasoning about the GM and El doesn't like that :P 

Just me speculating further though it doesn't really help us so I should drop it, but storm it, I hate puzzles :P My thought was that: voting is secret for them, yeah? According to the rules, in the immediate cycle it is. The votes get revealed after that. So people wouldn't know if the lynch was redirected [in the sense of people organising a counterlynch to hit target B instead of target A] but targeting xino is just so strange that I have to wonder if people in the Jeskeri doc organised (whether by PM or whatever; Cultist doc?) to drive the lynch to xino instead of...whoever was being publicly suspected.

Xino's being active in the Jeskeri doc is immaterial, because doc activity as we have both cited, does not count to activity, and without a thread post, xino would have died to the filter anyway. Or maybe they decided to park the lynch on xino. Keine Ahnung. (Hmm. A belated thought: maybe they wanted to deny us the chance to do some vote analysis. After all, xino did and said nothing in thread, so we can't use the Jeskeri lynch results to help us make sense of what's going on.)

9 hours ago, Sart said:

Wait a second. Something's off with Kasimir's last post in Cycle Two.

Here's my problem with this post.

How does Kasimir know that the Jeskeri doc didn't vote on its members in the main thread? I think the only reasonable explanation is that Kasimir is a Jeskeri Practitioner. I don't think he's a Jeskeri Cultist though, because he was arguing with Gears, the target of the Cultist kill. I need an explanation for this.

[OOC] Except that's not what I said. I said:

Quote

I would agree with this, except that he did disagree with a specific Straw claim: on Jeskeri self-targeting via Korathi. (In fact, given last cycle, not exactly wrong.) Okay, I'm just gonna post this and come back to things later. Just know I'm wary of you but not outright distrustful.

Let's put this back in the context of the debate (FWIW, remember I was trying to get this in at about 1 minute before the cycle ended and did not precisify my language as much as I wanted to. I also didn't get to engage with Gears about why I was not comfortable with the sudden vote-switch and felt that it was compatible with a Jeskeri or Cultist seeking Korathi cred!) You and Straw disagreed about whether the Jeskeri would try to mobilise the Korathi lynch to achieve a double-Inquisition that targeted Jeskeri.

So here's my question: who died to the Korathi Inquisition on Cycle One?

I'll link it for you, if you like. Mint. A Korathi. We even had a last minute vote wagon (which is normally sketchy as all heck and I'm still side-eying) slam down in favour of getting Mint killed. My argument is that you are not exactly wrong precisely because any weird last minute activity only shooed the lynch towards a Korathi! The issue is not what the Jeskeri did, it's what the Jeskeri didn't do. They didn't control the lynch and direct it to among themselves. The mere fact that we had a Korathi lynch is demonstrative of the fact that there was no Jeskeri control or that there was insufficient Jeskeri control. [Edited to add: Or that Jeskeri are trying to direct the Korathi lynch towards suspected cultists. As I said in a previous RP post, the problem is not what the possibilities are, our problem is figuring out which one is the most likely true.] I say 'not exactly wrong' precisely because we don't know (and didn't know then) about competing lynch trains, like Ash or Pyro. Yet whatever went down, whether the entire lynch was pure Korathi or not, our last minute actors dragged the lynch to a Korathi.

In fact, this cycle's results also shed light on last cycle's. Remember there was a competing lynch train for Ash in Cycle One? We now know Ash is also Korathi. Which tells me that our top two lynch trains (excluding Pyro) were not Jeskeri-targeting. This should imply that either: the Jeskeri are voting opportunistically (I still think this might be what happened with Lotus), or that they're hiding in the margins of the game. Or both. (Or I guess, a third option: that they're unenthusiastically participating in Korathi lynches just to appear engaged and involved as Villagers, even if they don't actually care.)

I don't know if that's what went down this cycle though, because of the Ilwei wagon. I disagree with @DrakeMarshall precisely because we haven't really seen Jeskeri targeting behaviour in the final lynch (re: Mint lynchtrain), though to be fair, that's last minute voting activity. Suppose Ilwei was JP. The Jeskeri would be happy with a 50% chance at lynching one of their own, knowing any last minute activity would be suspicious as hell. The thing is, the whole "no one saved Ilwei" thing is a bit sketchy to me, because that, if anything, would be Cultist activity. And we're not interested in cultists! We're looking for Jeskeri! That does make me side-eye you a little harder, Drake, even though I accept I'm probably also working off MR43 mindset here :P [Edited to add: The one case in which I can think of in which Ilwei is JP and gets saved from the lynch is if the JPs think Ilwei is likely JP rather than a Cultist. So, my question is: is this what you think should be happening here, therefore making Ilwei unlikely to be a JP? How do you have access to what the JPs think about Ilwei, hmm? :P ]

(And I used to belong to the old-school 'save your buddies' Eliminator school of thought, but I do know players like Elan and Tess are more hardcore about risktaking and throwing teammates to the bus-shaped wolves. So even that is no guarantee.)

I just woke up, so sue me, it's a public holiday, so Eid Mubarak to anyone celebrating :) I'm gonna do life stuff and come back later if I have time to do some analysis.

Also edited for formatting.

Edited by Kasimir
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2 hours ago, DrakeMarshall said:

So... Tentatively, I'm looking for either somebody who was around but didn't vote, or somebody who put a vote down but not on one of the main two lynch targets. The behavior that sticks out to me the most is probably Hael's vote. Hopefully setting aside from the fact that I disagreed with lynching Sart D1 and if anything I think the reasons to do so if anything diminished after another cycle, I would argue that most of the other players who were active were casting votes that had a fairly high impact on the lynch outcome.

Eh, disagree that my vote wasn't impactful at the time I placed it: When I voted, I put the second vote on Sart when Illwei was the only other player with two votes on them. Matrim and Ash only had one vote at the time, and didn't get those additional votes until after I'd gone to sleep. Not much I can do when most people vote after 3am my time. 

 

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